When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Instead of screaming and profanity I suggest you read the thread. We were discussing how Horner would get a blood bag to the Vuelta. How he could mask transfusions with the altitude excuse (Utah) and EPO microdosing. We discussed how he is looking so strong in the 3rd week and what methods he could use to achieve this. Transfusion, masked by microdosing, are the best possibility

Do you really think Horner is using BB's? Nah. Just a lot of hard work.

Dottore Michele told the Dutch in 1993 the effects of altitude training will last for fourty days!
http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:010691825:mpeg21:p024:a1080/layout/fullscreen

Six months hiding in Utah? Chris will win the Tour next year, just needs to learn how to TT, maybe Wiggums will teach him?

 

[Race Radio]

Do you really think Horner is using BB's? Nah. Just a lot of hard work.

Dottore Michele told the Dutch in 1993 the effects of altitude training will last for fourty days!
http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:010691825:mpeg21:p024:a1080/layout/fullscreen

Six months hiding in Utah? Chris will win the Tour next year, just needs to learn how to TT, maybe Wiggums will teach him?

It appears you did not understand what I wrote.

If a rider were to transfuse a blood bag right before getting on the plane to ride the Vuelta they could use as an excuse for the sudden spike in blood values the fact that they were racing the Tour of Utah prior to getting on the plane.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Instead of screaming and profanity I suggest you read the thread. We were discussing how Horner would get a blood bag to the Vuelta. How he could mask transfusions with the altitude excuse (Utah) and EPO microdosing. We discussed how he is looking so strong in the 3rd week and what methods he could use to achieve this. Transfusion, masked by microdosing, are the best possibility

Next time instead of searching for an argument take some time to read the thread and you will not look so silly

Incorrect. You posted some nonsense about microdosing back on page 68 and have repeated said nonsense over the last 9 pages while I've been trying to set you straight. That's what this discussion is about.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Just to make it really clear. The idea that microdosing that beats the testing doesn't have a significant effect on Hb mass is rubbish.

 

[Race Radio]

Incorrect. You posted some nonsense about microdosing back on page 68 and have repeated said nonsense over the last 9 pages while I've been trying to set you straight. That's what this discussion is about.

Thanks for proving my point. It is pretty clear in that post I am talking about a targeted rider and a narrow testing window, which is exactly what happens during a Grand Tour like the Vuelta. As one of the leaders of the race Horner would be targeted and get tested after the stage then have a narrow window to transfuse and get his off score right/Hct correct with a mix of EPO and plasma. Give that Chris has been out of competition for 5 months he would hardly be targeted while at home training for the race

Again, if you actually read the thread we are talking about Chris' performance IN the Vuelta, not on Strava while training at home. Remember what started this, we are talking about how Horner is not only able to perform so well in the 1st week of the Vuelta but also in the 3rd week. I doubt this is because of EPO, Transfusions are a far greater possibility.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

If a rider were to transfuse a blood bag right before getting on the plane to ride the Vuelta they could use as an excuse for the sudden spike in blood values the fact that they were racing the Tour of Utah prior to getting on the plane.

No it wouldnt.

Although altitude testing is useless, hence why some teams love to go to Tenerife year round, the tests done at Utah, if there were any, would show up in Spain when someone was putting in an extra 500cc of blood.

But, it isn't in the blood, whatever Horner has done.

Or, he is on the schumi special.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

They seem locked in mortal combat over the exact shade of gray.

Its grey

 

[Oldman]

Thanks for proving my point. It is pretty clear in that post I am talking about a targeted rider and a narrow testing window, which is exactly what happens during a Grand Tour like the Vuelta. As one of the leaders of the race Horner would be targeted and get tested after the stage then have a narrow window to transfuse and get his off score right/Hct correct with a mix of EPO and plasma. Give that Chris has been out of competition for 5 months he would hardly be targeted while at home training for the race

Again, if you actually read the thread we are talking about Chris' performance IN the Vuelta, not on Strava while training at home. Remember what started this, we are talking about how Horner is not only able to perform so well in the 1st week of the Vuelta but also in the 3rd week. I doubt this is because of EPO, Transfusions are a far greater possibility.

For the record he was in Bend for most of the period before Utah. Like I said, fit and ready months before that race.

 

[red_flanders]

Remember what started this, we are talking about how Horner is not only able to perform so well in the 1st week of the Vuelta but also in the 3rd week. I doubt this is because of EPO, Transfusions are a far greater possibility.

Useful clarification and pretty different than broad, unprovable statements about what EPO is being used for–which of course would be loaded with exceptions based on the rider and their particular schedule.

 

[red_flanders]

Its grey

No, it isn't. http://grammarist.com/spelling/gray-grey/

 

[blackcat]

Instead of screaming and profanity I suggest you read the thread. We were discussing how Horner would get a blood bag to the Vuelta. How he could mask transfusions with the altitude excuse (Utah) and EPO microdosing. We discussed how he is looking so strong in the 3rd week and what methods he could use to achieve this. Transfusion, masked by microdosing, are the best possibility

Next time instead of searching for an argument take some time to read the thread and you will not look so silly

would not the best way to get the extra blood to the Vuelta, would be, have the 1000cc in Utah. Infuse it in Utah. Fly to Madrid with an extra 1litre in your system, then withdraw it on the tarmac, or after customs. Just the day with an extra 1000 in your body, will hit your body signals to stop producing, so need to counter that with microdose.

this assumption, includes being over-natural blood mass even before adding the 1000. so sooooper-chock-full on the flight over. (dangerous?)

this seems the most obvious and simple way of getting the blood bag(s) over to Madrid. Take 'em. Inside you. But unlike heroin baggies, or coke baggies, they wont show up if custom wants to x-ray your stomach.

also a little safer. but not completely safe

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

No I'm not proving your point, ffs! What is it that you find so very difficult to understand!? You claimed microdoses of EPO are only useful for masking transfusions, that's garbage and I pointed it out. The quoted text below is utterly irrelevant to this discussion.

Thanks for proving my point. It is pretty clear in that post I am talking about a targeted rider and a narrow testing window, which is exactly what happens during a Grand Tour like the Vuelta. As one of the leaders of the race Horner would be targeted and get tested after the stage then have a narrow window to transfuse and get his off score right/Hct correct with a mix of EPO and plasma. Give that Chris has been out of competition for 5 months he would hardly be targeted while at home training for the race

Again, if you actually read the thread we are talking about Chris' performance IN the Vuelta, not on Strava while training at home. Remember what started this, we are talking about how Horner is not only able to perform so well in the 1st week of the Vuelta but also in the 3rd week. I doubt this is because of EPO, Transfusions are a far greater possibility.

 

[Von Mises]

Just to make it really clear. The idea that microdosing that beats the testing doesn't have a significant effect on Hb mass is rubbish.

If you are reffering to Ahenden 2011, then this study only measured how sensitive is ABP to microdosing, it was not about direct EPo testing.

 

[Race Radio]

exceptions based on the rider and their particular schedule.

That is interesting, you should open a thread on it.

today we are discussing a specific rider riding a specific race.... Chris Horner and what methods he is using to do so well in the Vuelta.

The beetroot juice angle has not been fully explore yet.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

If you are reffering to Ahenden 2011, then this study only measured how sensitive is ABP to microdosing, it was not about direct EPO testing.

Well.

A quick calculation confirms that the EPO dosing described for the Armstrong era was equal to or greater than the dosing in the Ashenden (2011a) study. Therefore, a 10-percent increase in Hgb mass derived from the Ashenden (2011a) study stands as a safe estimate for the effect of EPO.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...aris-altitude-training-claims-part-2_275383/3

So the suggestion that microdosing wasn't used to raise Hb in the mid-00's is demonstrably false. The programs described in the USADA report and Puerto documents show plenty of OOC microdosing (500-1000 iu) intended to raise Hb. The riders who used EPO without transfusing were obviously doing it to beef up Hb.

Has EPO-testing improved? Sure, but you can still use doses large enough to have a significant effect on Hb mass, at least OOC, when EPO is used to raise Hb. IC use is only for maintenance.

The dosing in the Ashenden study was 30 iu/kg twice a week.

It is widely accepted that a micro-dose of 500 units of EPO is very difficult to detect just 12 hours after it has been injected.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-santambrogio-could-be-cleared-of-doping

It's probably quite risky to get a 10% boost in Hb from EPO alone, but you don't need that much to see significant gains in power.

 

[Merckx index]

If you are reffering to Ahenden 2011, then this study only measured how sensitive is ABP to microdosing, it was not about direct EPo testing.

But in that 2011 paper, Ashenden did have something to say about the likelihood of testing positive for EPO under that regime, and it certainly suggested that the door was open.

I think RR is correct insofar as what Ashenden believes. The question is whether what Ashenden believes is correct. Like just about everyone else who is not an actual rider, MA has been behind the curve before in understanding what the riders are doing. Like Ferrari’s method of main-lining EPO to accelerate its excretion from the system, or the use of EPO to mask transfusions itself that Ashenden now believes is the main purpose of the drug.

I really don’t understand the vehemence of the argument, though. Surely the main issue is whether Horner is blood doping, not how. I would be much more interested in seeing some hard(er) evidence that he is doping than learning whether it was by transfusion or just EPO. Now if he were using some of the newer PEDS that have been the subject of speculation here, that would be very interesting, too. But if it's just blood boosting, who really cares whether it's transfusion or EPO? There are probably riders using each of these approaches.

 

[zigmeister]

Instead of insults I suggest you read what Ashenden said in in 2012, not 2 years ago. He is very clear what EPO microdosing is used for today



You are welcome to ignore this and point to an older study but that does not change the fact that the primary use for EPO microdosing in competition is to keep your off score stable.

No Ashenden doesn't know, hasn't a clue...he is only pontificating and providing some type of theory...and this was all based on the Contador hearing he came up with this idea.

He says over and over, it is just a theory to show how/why Contador could have got clen in his system, by the theory he proposed regarding the effects of plasma, EPO use and transfusion and the plasticizers found/not found in such samples of Contador.

He still says he doesn't know for sure and it isn't fact at all. Plus, he won't reveal "secrets" the testers have and know to look for.

It is all just theories, and I don't really rely much on Ashenden for knowledge on anything as an "expert". When Floyd Landis had to tell him how advanced they were with their abilities, and still Floyd didn't tell him everything regarding the subject. Ashenden is/was clueless about a lot of things and still is. If they are doing things you have no clue about, then any theories you throw out there are just that, meaningless.

 

[red_flanders]

That is interesting, you should open a thread on it.

today we are discussing a specific rider riding a specific race.... Chris Horner and what methods he is using to do so well in the Vuelta.

The beetroot juice angle has not been fully explore yet.

No need, you finally did revert back to the topic after several broad statements about the use of EPO and what it was good for. I'm not the one who started the thread down that track.

Sometimes it's okay not to be in a ****ing contest and sometimes it's OK to say, "Gee, good point. I wasn't clear" or occasionally, "I was wrong". More signal and less noise will surface when that happens.

 

[Race Radio]

When Floyd Landis had to tell him how advanced they were with their abilities, and still Floyd didn't tell him everything regarding the subject.

True, it was Floyd that told him they were using EPO mainly to keep their off score stable, but this was several years ago......which brings us back to my original question, what are they using today to dope during the race? What can a targeted rider like Horner use and not test positive?

While this story is 4 years old it does give a good idea of what Contador may have been doing. Multiple, small (150) transfusions to keep Hct high

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...-transfusion-prior-to-the-Tour-de-France.aspx

What do you think the methods today are?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

True, it was Floyd that told him they were using EPO mainly to keep their off score stable, but this was several years ago......which brings us back to my original question, what are they using today to dope during the race? What can a targeted rider like Horner use and not test positive?

While this story is 4 years old it does give a good idea of what Contador may have been doing. Multiple, small (150) transfusions to keep Hct high

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...-transfusion-prior-to-the-Tour-de-France.aspx

What do you think the methods today are?

Transfusions and small microdoses, like 5 iu/kg, maybe less. Hb is probably supposed to fall in a GT due to plasma expansion. There is little indication that a stable or rebounding Hb in a GT will actually get you in BP trouble. Three Liquigas riders in the 2011 Giro had their Hb's jump in the third week.

Same thing with Basso in the 2009 Vuelta. Plus his retics were suppressed for the entire race. Very Armstrong like.

 

[Catwhoorg]

How the heck does that not pop a passport case ?



Oh wait this is cycling, and those 'cases' are managed elsewhere.
*sigh*

 

[Von Mises]

Transfusions and small microdoses, like 5 iu/kg, maybe less. Hb is probably supposed to fall in a GT due to plasma expansion.

But 5 iu/kg is quite different from 30 iu/kg (Ashenden 2011). How much does 5 iu/kg raise Hb?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

But 5 iu/kg is quite different from 30 iu/kg (Ashenden 2011). How much does 5 iu/kg raise Hb?

5 iu/kg perhaps daily vs 30 iu/kg twice a week.

And the intention in this case (during a GT) would be to keep retics in the normal range, not to increase Hb by 10%.

 

[Von Mises]

It is all just theories, and I don't really rely much on Ashenden for knowledge on anything as an "expert". When Floyd Landis had to tell him how advanced they were with their abilities, and still Floyd didn't tell him everything regarding the subject. Ashenden is/was clueless about a lot of things and still is. If they are doing things you have no clue about, then any theories you throw out there are just that, meaningless.

I dont know where from Landis story originates, but Ashenden&Co published already in 2006 a study about microdosing and I have found one of his article from 2004 where he briefly speculated about microdosing. So, he definetly knew or at least suspected these things already before Landis case.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Ferrari Armstrong Rebuttal Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta5fqgeUuN4

explanation of the blood dope simulator and discussion of dope physiology
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgoHRRUtFCY

how biopassport software failed to flag armstrong doping
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Shcj-5YDJk