When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

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the sceptic said:
independent testing, UCI ran by someone that is strongly anti doping, harsher bans, no team doctors, former dopers not allowed to work in cycling.

Maybe at this point it wouldnt be worth it anymore.
Sorry, I meant what exactly is in place now that would make me think the "bad old days" were in fact "old" and not current?

I get that there's the bio-passport, but IMO it's being administered by a wholly corrupt and improperly incentivized organization. So I don't see why I should believe things are better.

Not looking to make a definitive statement on that, looking for perspectives on why it's better now.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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the sceptic said:
independent testing, UCI ran by someone that is strongly anti doping, harsher bans, no team doctors, former dopers not allowed to work in cycling.

Maybe at this point it wouldnt be worth it anymore.
Some of this is coming. If Cookson wins look for UCI to get out of the testing business, hopefully replaced by WADA. Later this year there will be a vote on 4 year bans, it will likely pass. While I doubt they can keep former dopers out I would like to see penalties that are focused on teams, DS's, staff.

Background checks and closer cooperation with law enforcement. How is it BMC hires a guy who is under investigation for smuggling thousands of does of EPO?
 
Dr_Lexus said:
So the solution is to out where his family lives? That will solve doping problem?

USADA just brought down kingpin Lance. They test as well.

They can test him anywhere anytime.

If you say tests don't work. Then Sky an Astana won GTs with dopers?

I'm not buying it. Say Horner dopes then say they all do.

Are you saying cycling is doping top to bottom?

Nothing has changed?
I'm having a flashback to 2009... 500 tests, tubulars stored in hermetically sealed Belgian basements...
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Tyler'sTwin said:
Why don't you read this study by Ashenden.
Nice study.....but we are talking about real life. Why don't you read this interview with Ashenden?

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2012/behind-scenes-contador-cas-hearing-michael-ashenden

He is very, very clear multiple times in the interview what EPO is used for these days

whereas the early 2000’s most of us considered that EPO was used to boost performance, nowadays we believe that EPO is an important masking tool whilst transfusions provide the ‘engine’ boost,
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Race Radio said:
Some of this is coming. If Cookson wins look for UCI to get out of the testing business, hopefully replaced by WADA. Later this year there will be a vote on 4 year bans, it will likely pass. While I doubt they can keep former dopers out I would like to see penalties that are focused on teams, DS's, staff.

Background checks and closer cooperation with law enforcement. How is it BMC hires a guy who is under investigation for smuggling thousands of does of EPO?
well it remains to be seen if Cookson is for real or if he is just another McQuaid with a better PR department. But I hope you are right.

Yeah there should be some way to prevent teams from hiring doctors/staff that have been implicated in doping.

Sorry for derail.
 

Dr_Lexus

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May 1, 2012
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the sceptic said:
well it remains to be seen if Cookson is for real or if he is just another McQuaid with a better PR department. But I hope you are right.

Yeah there should be some way to prevent teams from hiring doctors/staff that have been implicated in doping.

Sorry for derail.
WADA don't test. They will never be managers of UCI testing.

They are an oversight body.

It can only be conducted by the UCI or a body they set up or select but not WADA.
 

Dr_Lexus

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May 1, 2012
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Libertine Seguros said:
Why "if Horner dopes, they all do"? Why is Horner the tipping point? There are lots of riders out there, probably clean, who aren't fighting for the win in GTs aged 42. Fighting for the win in GTs aged 42 is "not normal". So why single him out as being more likely to be clean than any other GC contender given he has plenty of contentious actions in his past? Why not choose somebody like Pierrick Fedrigo, or Sandy Casar, who come with good reputations on that front, rather than a guy who openly defended Armstrong and who has only been performing at the highest level since he was already in his late 30s? Do you not think that a guy who rode with Armstrong's team when we know doping went on, and is inextricably linked to Lance and Bruyneel, suddenly increasing in level at the end of his career and now climbing with the best, carries the stench of the bad old days with him?
No.

Stop.

If you say Bruyneel I say Yates and the guy at Asana.

Or Riis?

So only Bruyneel is a dope manager?

Still not buying what you put forward.

If Horner is doping they all are.

Other guys here saying its a conspiracy and tests don't work and the UCI is involved? That the case then Sky and Astana are doping as well.

And Movistar.
 
Dr_Lexus said:
If Horner is doping they all are.

Other guys here saying its a conspiracy and tests don't work and the UCI is involved? That the case then Sky and Astana are doping as well.

And Movistar.
That's absolutely ridiculous.

That said, you won't see many people here claiming that Astana and Movistar are clean.

You'll find plenty of Skybots, though.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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hrotha said:
That's absolutely ridiculous.

That said, you won't see many people here claiming that Astana and Movistar are clean.

You'll find plenty of Skybots, though.
I assumed that was the whole point of bringing in Sky in to all the posts.
You can only get so far with the Horner is clean routine.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Nice study.....but we are talking about real life. Why don't you read this interview with Ashenden?

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2012/behind-scenes-contador-cas-hearing-michael-ashenden

He is very, very clear multiple times in the interview what EPO is used for these days
The key word here is nowadays, not LA-era. We know the doses used in those days provided a major engine boost. That's not debatable. I know you like to think otherwise because CVV, Ryder and DZ "only did EPO, not transfusions". Unfortunately for that narrative, 500-1000 iu is no joke. Ash study resulting in 10% Hb-mass boost used the equivalent of 700 iu (for 70kg rider) 6 days a week.

One might speculate that EPO is no longer a factor beyond avoiding retic crash post-transfusion. But such optimism is a poor fit with the facts of EPO-test sensitivity and EPO-microdosing efficiency.

It is widely accepted that a micro-dose of 500 units of EPO is very difficult to detect just 12 hours after it has been injected.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-santambrogio-could-be-cleared-of-doping

Judging by Ashenden's study, 350 iu (70kg rider) daily should beef up Hb-mass by ~5%. A dose not at all likely to show up in an EPO-test.
 

Dr_Lexus

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hrotha said:
That's absolutely ridiculous.

That said, you won't see many people here claiming that Astana and Movistar are clean.

You'll find plenty of Skybots, though.
Make fun. But Sky, Astana, Saxo and Movistar are the peloton.

If they are all doping then god save us all.

Now you say Horner is as well.

So Cancellera, Horner?

Horner and Valverde released their SRM has anyone else?

Point fingers does not mean doping.

It's easy to say they all dope. But why is Horner different?
 

Dr_Lexus

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hrotha said:
That's absolutely ridiculous.

That said, you won't see many people here claiming that Astana and Movistar are clean.

You'll find plenty of Skybots, though.

Make fun. But Sky, Astana, Saxo and Movistar are the peloton.

If they are all doping then god save us all.

Now you say Horner is as well.

So Cancellera, Horner?

Horner and Valverde released their SRM has anyone else?

Point fingers does not mean doping.

It's easy to say they all dope. But why is Horner different?
 
Nov 11, 2011
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Race Radio said:
Some of this is coming. If Cookson wins look for UCI to get out of the testing business, hopefully replaced by WADA. Later this year there will be a vote on 4 year bans, it will likely pass. While I doubt they can keep former dopers out I would like to see penalties that are focused on teams, DS's, staff.

Background checks and closer cooperation with law enforcement. How is it BMC hires a guy who is under investigation for smuggling thousands of does of EPO?
What better reasons to go all out with doping. If I was at the end of my career as a professional cyclist believing testing was soon to be more stringent I would be very tempted to get something while I could.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Tyler'sTwin said:
The key word here is nowadays, not LA-era. We know the doses used in those days provided a major engine boost. That's not debatable. I know you like to think otherwise because CVV, Ryder and DZ "only did EPO, not transfusions". Unfortunately for that narrative, 500-1000 iu is no joke. Ash study resulting in 10% Hb-mass boost used the equivalent of 700 iu (for 70kg rider) 6 days a week.

One might speculate that EPO is no longer a factor beyond avoiding retic crash post-transfusion. But such optimism is a poor fit with the facts of EPO-test sensitivity and EPO-microdosing efficiency.



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-santambrogio-could-be-cleared-of-doping

Judging by Ashenden's study, 350 iu (70kg rider) daily should beef up Hb-mass by ~5%. A dose not at all likely to show up in an EPO-test.
I urge you to get in touch with Landis, Ashenden, etc with this groundbreaking info and tell them how wrong they are.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Race Radio said:
I urge you to get in touch with Landis, Ashenden, etc with this groundbreaking info and tell them how wrong they are.
I don't need to. Ashenden is well aware of this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/sports/cycling/26micro.html?_r=0

Which you'd understand if you took the time to read his studies. You can't argue with reality. EPO-doses that evade detection have a significant performance enhancing effect. That's been PROVEN!
 
Sep 10, 2013
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A few random thoughts about Horner from a long-time fan. Personally I wish he is not doping, but it seems unlikely.

Horner has always been a low-key racer who loved to ride as much as any recreational rider. He had enough natural talent that he was able to relax and enjoy his time off the bike instead of focusing strictly on training and diet as many young domestic racers must in order to stay competitive. Just look at the stories about him and In n Out hamburgers, or the pictures of him sitting on the curb drinking a coke instead of warming up.

One thing that first caught my attention with Horner was his apparent outsider status. He was never one of the golden boys with Armstrong and Hincapie, and raced like a mercenary with a chip on his shoulder against the Weisel group.

On his first trip to Europe, he still looked like an outsider, never comfortable with the culture or the team. I think a good circumstantial evidence argument could be made that he did not dope at this time, or at least was not on a team-organized program due to his discomfort and his poor racing schedule. However, that does not mean he was not doing his own thing or slowly learning what was needed as a "professional".

While it's been pointed out here before that Horner had class as a rider in the US peloton -- and that's certainly true -- I don't see that as evidence for not doping. Consider the infamous picture of him and his Saturn teammates Tommy Danielson and Nathan O'Neil riding away from the pack at Redlands. That was largely a tactical fail by the peloton, but hardly a squeaky clean pair of teammates. His opposite on the women's domestic circuit at the time turning in similar results was Genevieve Jeanson.

I'm willing to give Horner a free pass on his Armstrong comments after joining the Bruyneel teams. As a teammate, he cannot be expected to do anything but toe the team line. It is not in his best interest to bite the hand that feeds.

Since returning to Europe, Horner has acted more professional and planned regarding his training and diet. That may extend to doping as well, but I think some improvement or lack of age-related drop can be directly related to this attitude change. He is also doing this current European campaign on his own terms rather than blindly following team requests on his own.

Watching this Vuelta, Horner seems to be racing as an older racer in line with his younger days. He is very smart and gained his two stage wins largely on tactics rather than overpowering the other racers. Horner is a pure climber who can also go well on hilly circuit races, and he is racing his traditional strengths here. As an older racer, it is very evident that he has lost his pop (jump or sprint) but is better at managing his power at threshold. None of his "attacks" have been vicious jumps, but simply maintaining or slowly increasing the power at the opportune time. At his age, Horner should have lost much of his top end but little of his threshold power, and that's what I am seeing.
 
Race Radio said:
Nice study.....but we are talking about real life. Why don't you read this interview with Ashenden?

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2012/behind-scenes-contador-cas-hearing-michael-ashenden

He is very, very clear multiple times in the interview what EPO is used for these days
Tyler'sTwin said:
The key word here is nowadays, not LA-era. We know the doses used in those days provided a major engine boost. That's not debatable. I know you like to think otherwise because CVV, Ryder and DZ "only did EPO, not transfusions". Unfortunately for that narrative, 500-1000 iu is no joke. Ash study resulting in 10% Hb-mass boost used the equivalent of 700 iu (for 70kg rider) 6 days a week.

One might speculate that EPO is no longer a factor beyond avoiding retic crash post-transfusion. But such optimism is a poor fit with the facts of EPO-test sensitivity and EPO-microdosing efficiency.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-santambrogio-could-be-cleared-of-doping

Judging by Ashenden's study, 350 iu (70kg rider) daily should beef up Hb-mass by ~5%. A dose not at all likely to show up in an EPO-test.
You are either discussing two different things (passport vs. urine testing) or have to be more precise regarding dates and timelines. EPO is being microdosed to mask transfusions (which not everybody does because it's too expensive or complicated or plain too dangerous) but still also to increase Hb mass. 500-1000IU are maybe even too much, 200-500IU is more probable these days. And then there is EPO as a recovery drug. Nothing beats Edgar, not GH and not T; just ask JV.

The latest positives have been a result of the implementation of MAIIA which is more sensitive to microdosing. MAIIA is in place since earlier this year. No problem though if you train in remote places with only little chances of OOC controls.
 
WanderingWheel said:
Watching this Vuelta, Horner seems to be racing as an older racer in line with his younger days. He is very smart and gained his two stage wins largely on tactics rather than overpowering the other racers.
Because riding away from everyone on a steep MTF is all about tactics :rolleyes:

Good thing Nibali didn't have such good tactics, because when he attacked from the group behind he didn't manage to take back a single second on Horner!
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Read an interesting theory on another forum:

Horner = redacted rider #15 in USADA report
Levi Leipheimer said another US rider had told him in 2008 that they had doped to recover from injury in 2005 then ridden the Tour De Suisse. As did Horner, whilst riding for Saunier Duval.
 

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