When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[del1962]

Agreed.

USADA may have let him off the hook, but RadioShack's protestations only make it look worse and more deliberate.

He just won a GT at 40+. If you were an ADA, wouldn't you want to test him as soon as possible? Or, at least as soon as he might have let his guard down?

In other words, right after the award ceremony?

If you were Horner, or his doctor, wouldn't you want to continue to stay one step ahead of the testers? If so, wouldn't you think the hotel change would be a good idea?

It is just way too convenient a scenario if Horner were doping.

You get to flush out any would-be ADA test.

Having flushed them out, you can test yourself and decide what kind of camouflage to deploy.

Beautiful.

Dave.

I presume he would have been tested after every stage he was in Red though, which includes the final stage.

Is there any reason he would take something after the final stage though?

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

The Froome fans are. Or at least many of them are on record saying that they think the sport has cleaned up and Nibali is clean.

I like those guys.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Agreed.

USADA may have let him off the hook, but RadioShack's protestations only make it look worse and more deliberate.

He just won a GT at 40+. If you were an ADA, wouldn't you want to test him as soon as possible? Or, at least as soon as he might have let his guard down?

In other words, right after the award ceremony?

If you were Horner, or his doctor, wouldn't you want to continue to stay one step ahead of the testers? If so, wouldn't you think the hotel change would be a good idea?

It is just way too convenient a scenario if Horner were doping.

You get to flush out any would-be ADA test.

Having flushed them out, you can test yourself and decide what kind of camouflage to deploy.

Beautiful.

Dave.

\

Clarity. Thank you.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

The only way the "Horner evaded the testers" theory makes sense to me is if the tests from USADA were somehow stricter or tested for other substances than the post-stage tests. Otherwise the guy was already being tested.

 

[ToreBear]

It's a business hotel. NOT the place where you'd go for a charming end of a victorious journey to Spain. Also, if you have a view on the parking lot, you can see the control doctors coming 10 minutes before they knock on your door. They should dig deeper into his/her motives for taking this particular hotel, because it makes as much sense as ordering Spanish beef when visiting French cuisine. Also, if you need a quick ride to the airport, why take a hotel on the wrong side of town? Admittedly, the only reason for this hotel is that it's next to the highway.

I read that he had tickets from Valencia. So the hotel being next to a main highway which does not go through downtown Madrid and hence probably avoids a lot of traffic, might be a good idea if they were planning to drive early to get to Valencia.

Then again were there no hotels that were closer to Valencia available? Were they no good? Difficult to get to from all the post Vuelta necessities?

And why travel from Valencia and not Madrid, which has many more connections? Does he or his wife have an attachment to Valencia? Were the tickets back to Oregon cheaper from Valencia?

So many questions where each can be framed to make his behavior sound very strange and out of the ordinary.

 

[D-Queued]

The only way the "Horner evaded the testers" theory makes sense to me is if the tests from USADA were somehow stricter or tested for other substances than the post-stage tests. Otherwise the guy was already being tested.

Maybe.

Then you have to ask, why test at all?

If that doesn't make sense, and you decide that you should do some testing, then when would you want to test?

How about when they least expect it, or when they are least prepared for it?

Isn't it a lot harder to employ all of your evasive chemical maneuvers when you are back in the big city?

If you knew that Motoman got hung up on his final delivery with all of the Carabineros around, maybe try the switch hotels ploy?

Bottom line: The USADA was planning to test him.

You don't have to question whether it made sense or not. Someone was already planning to test.

AND, there is at least the appearance that Horner et al anticipated the test and found an easy escape route.

I presume he would have been tested after every stage he was in Red though, which includes the final stage.

Is there any reason he would take something after the final stage though?

Sooner or later you run out of spare countermeasures, and your doctor gets drunk or goes home.

And/or one of the best times to get a 'high' value on the BP to compare with a 'low' value later would be at the end of the last stage of the race.

Thus, this one?

...If you were an ADA, wouldn't you want to test him as soon as possible? Or, at least as soon as he might have let his guard down?

In other words, right after the award ceremony?
....

Dave.

 

[hrotha]

The only way the "Horner evaded the testers" theory makes sense to me is if the tests from USADA were somehow stricter or tested for other substances than the post-stage tests. Otherwise the guy was already being tested.

At different times. In-competition.

Timing is essential when it comes to testing.

 

[131313]

If anyone is going to get a "holiday" for this, it will be someone at USADA for not anticipating a late - though entirely legitimate and properly reported - change of "Whereabouts" from Horner. USADA asked the Spanish to test Horner so the onus was on them to tell the Spaniards where he was going to be.

Horner and Radioshack may well have been "playing silly b*ggers", but if USADA had kept their eye on the ball then none of that would have mattered.

This isn't actually on USADA, it's on the testers. My understanding is that if you receive the confirmation e-mail, then that means that you've correctly entered the information--and once that's done, your profile is automatically updated. USADA isn't going to necessarily have people working 24/7 365, that's why the process is automated. Once the tester is notified, it's their responsibility to check the rider's profile. The whereabouts info will be included (it's a profile that's accessible by the rider, the team, the testing bodies, and anyone else you grant access). So, it's really on the guy doing the test. He dropped the ball.

Sure, the team could have deliberately sent the tester to the wrong place, and maybe he did change hotels in the hopes of avoiding a test, but that's hoping a lot goes wrong. That said, mobile internet connections can be dicey at some places over there, so yeah--I could see it being an attempt to avoid a test.

 

[Benotti69]

What could Horner be taking that would still be in system the day after the Vuelta finished?

 

[131313]

The only way the "Horner evaded the testers" theory makes sense to me is if the tests from USADA were somehow stricter or tested for other substances than the post-stage tests. Otherwise the guy was already being tested.

Actually, they were probably different tests. The USADA test was probably a full panel they were going to send to the UCI as a biopassport test (yes, USADA can order than even though they don't administer the passport, they're 'partners', whereas the in comp tests were testing for some specific substances).

 

[GreasyMonkey]

I presume he would have been tested after every stage he was in Red though, which includes the final stage.

Is there any reason he would take something after the final stage though?

"Recovering" for the World's in a week or two time - have your "glow-time" sitting 10km above ground, well out of the reach of the vampires.

My guess was that there was a blood-bag waiting for him in Móstoles, and a macro-dose of EPO in the taxi to the airport at 7:01AM.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

If Radioshack gave the testers the run-around they asked for it. The testing process should be simple. You go to where the athlete says he's going to be. If he's not there then it's either a strike against him or you've made a clerical error - and that's the end of it.

Chasing him up is completely pointless. Once you've informed his team that you're looking for him then it's no longer a surprise test and so the results are meaningless (or even more meaningless than usual depending on your viewpoint)

 

[FunkyChamois]

"Recovering" for the World's in a week or two time - have your "glow-time" sitting 10km above ground, well out of the reach of the vampires.

My guess was that there was a blood-bag waiting for him in Móstoles, and a macro-dose of EPO in the taxi to the airport at 7:01AM.

i just have a question:

Would you be happier if you were right or wrong?

 

[darwin553]

tbh, i was hardly surprised to hear spanish anti-doping authorities screwed this one up.

remember the chaperone issue at la vuelta one or two years back?

Yeah I could see them marching into the hotel that they thought Horner was staying at and hoping that they would carry out the test to maybe find something untoward so as to impress USADA but only, in the end, to disappoint them

 

[Ferminal]

Actually, they were probably different tests. The USADA test was probably a full panel they were going to send to the UCI as a biopassport test (yes, USADA can order than even though they don't administer the passport, they're 'partners', whereas the in comp tests were testing for some specific substances).

Depending on how much the UCI bothers testing these days, there would still be a few bloods from the race. At a minimum one a week (based on the few GT profiles that have been released).

 

[darwin553]

I don’t understand why some posters are continuing to argue that the weak field in the Vuelta is relevant. Yes, it was weak, but what difference does that make when we have power numbers? Horner could have finished 25th, and if he still had the numbers that have been published, he would be just as suspicious.

A weak field just makes the power numbers more suspect I'm afraid as there isn't the level of competition present to require that a higher wattage output was necessary to win the overall GC.

 

[Nicko.]

That's easy, he is "on" whatever Froome is "on".
...
As to why the rest of the team was at a lesser level, who knows? Maybe they didn't want to spend the money? Maybe they didn't trust something new?

No, I was just pointing out reality. Whatever Sky are on, evidently the secret is out, just like I predicted. When doping riders like Froome and Horner can thumb their noses and confidently proclaim they will never test positive, the mutancy just got kicked up a notch...

I thought the consensus was that the select few Sky riders got an advanced/expensive/state-of-the-art chemical boost of elevated 3-week W/kg, no?

Are Radioshack spending those substantial resources on the promising/to-build-on Horner?

If the argument is that Horner has nothing to lose and gives himself a well needed retirement plan by pulling all stops in the grand finale, he shouldn't be able to finance it by himself, no?

BTW, I am not arguing he's clean, not at all. I just don't see how he can be on the exotic juice Froome is claimed to burn.

Discuss.

Bump.

Is the Froome juice expensive/exotic/very delicate to administer?
Are RS supplying/financing only Horner, a total PR disaster? Why?
If not, can Horner pick up his own tab? How?

... until blood vector doping and now mysterious peptides and the like (AICAR etc).

Thus incredulity with skeletons Sir Wiggo, Dawg and Horner.

Second bump.

Who can explain the logic in:
1. Horner is on the Froome juice (fair)
2. Froome is using something that is rare/exclusive/expensive/undetectable (fair)
3. Only Horner gets the good stuff from RS (why? not a keeper)
3b. Or Horner gets the good stuff on his own (how? new stuff is not off the shelf)
4. Dodging an USADA test creates a hoolabaloo (why flee? undetectable...)

Again, not arguing clean, but asking what & how.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

4. Dodging an USADA test creates a hoolabaloo (why flee? undetectable...)

Again, not arguing clean, but asking what & how.

Judging by the reported actions and inconsistencies in the RatShack BS, I would suggest that he is not on some undetectable substance, more than likely a nice un-thawed BB from a Siberia freezer with some EPO/beetroot juice to balance things out.

After a performance like his Vuelta he will be tired, blood-cells are dying off and with Worlds and Tour of Lombardy around the corner. Recovery, especially for a 40+ guy, will be critical for later races.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Bump.

Is the Froome juice expensive/exotic/very delicate to administer?
Are RS supplying/financing only Horner, a total PR disaster? Why?
If not, can Horner pick up his own tab? How?



Second bump.

Who can explain the logic in:
1. Horner is on the Froome juice (fair)
2. Froome is using something that is rare/exclusive/expensive/undetectable (fair)
3. Only Horner gets the good stuff from RS (why? not a keeper)
3b. Or Horner gets the good stuff on his own (how? new stuff is not off the shelf)
4. Dodging an USADA test creates a hoolabaloo (why flee? undetectable...)

Again, not arguing clean, but asking what & how.

Juicing Horner is a no risk situation for Radioshack at this point. The team gets max exposure in the last GT of the season from a rider who can be thrown under the bus should he fail a test. He will quickly be forgotten when the team emerges at Team Trek next year.

 

[Fatclimber]

Bump.

Is the Froome juice expensive/exotic/very delicate to administer?
Are RS supplying/financing only Horner, a total PR disaster? Why?
If not, can Horner pick up his own tab? How?



Second bump.

Who can explain the logic in:
1. Horner is on the Froome juice (fair)
2. Froome is using something that is rare/exclusive/expensive/undetectable (fair)
3. Only Horner gets the good stuff from RS (why? not a keeper)
3b. Or Horner gets the good stuff on his own (how? new stuff is not off the shelf)
4. Dodging an USADA test creates a hoolabaloo (why flee? undetectable...)

Again, not arguing clean, but asking what & how.

I'll take a stab. No idea how exotic or difficult to administer.

Horner a PR disaster? He learned how to spew BS from the best. Why him? He's proven he can walk the crooked company line. The Schleckie's didn't fit in on the team if you didn't notice. And who else could they pick for GC? Zubeldia's it, and why risk a rider that may not walk the line.

Everybody's seen the fallout from leaks. They're very careful not to have a free for all with everybody laying on the floor of the bus getting injections. CYA, pretty easy to understand how important it is to keep that crap a secret.

If they're on some new super duper junk we're going to be the last to know. Again. Except for the rediculous performances that is. Some dudes strap **** onto their kids strollers to transport it. Some dudes stick catheters in their dongs and infuse somebody else's clean urine into their bladder prior to a test. Some dudes shove a suppository up their bung in the middle of a race. They're some creative people when it comes to concealing their wicked ways. Try reading "Breaking the Chain" for some insight.

Until somebody comes out, all we can do is consume the evidence and speculate. One thing's for sure, many of these athletes have shown that they are willing to do anything for an advantage. That's the way it's always been and I don't see it changing. The testers have their work cut out for them.

 

[hrotha]

Horner might be what you'd call a "test driver", making sure the stuff works properly before using it on the rest of the team for more important objectives next year.

Well, it's a possibility. This concept of a "test driver" is like the whole foundation of the Dauphiné.

 

[jb1989]

This whole saga of the "missing little Jack Horner" is starting to smell distinctly rotten.

From El Pais.... http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/09/16/inenglish/1379359771_845932.html

Two days previously, the American Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) had asked its Spanish counterpart to take blood and urine samples due to suspicions raised by the cyclist’s biological passport. However, when anti-doping agents from the Spanish Agency for the Protection of Health in Sport (AEPSAD) arrived at RadioShack’s hotel in Madrid, Horner was nowhere to be found. Neither could his teammates or manager provide the right answer.

A team doctor said that Horner was in a different hotel closer to the airport with his wife, but the AEPSAD agents left the second hotel empty-handed. RadioShack said that Horner had provided his location to USADA and presented a screenshot of a confirmation email: “Hello. The Vuelta finished today, September 15, in Madrid, and I will fly back to my home in Bend, Oregon on the 16th. I will be staying at the Hotel Ciudad de Móstoles, room 314. I will be locatable there between six and seven in the morning.”

.

I know my lack of skepticism won't go down well, but I'd be willing to suggest that the night after winning a grand tour, unexpectedly at that, a team partakes in suitable celebrations. If they've done this with any conviction, I wouldn't expect them to be particularly fresh at 6am the next morning...I know trying to explain where someone was wouldn't be top of my list at that point.

 

[sittingbison]

Horner might be what you'd call a "test driver", making sure the stuff works properly before using it on the rest of the team for more important objectives next year.

Well, it's a possibility. This concept of a "test driver" is like the whole foundation of the Dauphiné.

I'm going to do a "thehog"

...Wouldn't be surprised if Horner is a well reimbursed guinea pig testing out a new program for the heavy hitters within Radio Shack for next year. Watch the performance, check the results, see if he gets caught... explainable as a rogue old guy trying for a final pay check. Horner knows how to play that game, when to speak up or keep schtumm.

 

[meat puppet]

Horner might be what you'd call a "test driver", making sure the stuff works properly before using it on the rest of the team for more important objectives next year.

Well, it's a possibility. This concept of a "test driver" is like the whole foundation of the Dauphiné.

I think this is a plausible hypothesis to keep in mind at least. Perhaps Andrew will refind his legs afterall?

On another note, what I don't get are the simultaneous arguments that a) the numbers by Horner were very high and b) the field quality was low, when in fact Horner beat Nibali only by 37 seconds and Valverde by 1.36. And Nibali's numbers are quite in line with those he did in the Giro, etc.

Edit: good post sittingbison.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

On another note, what I don't get are the simultaneous arguments that a) the numbers by Horner were very high and b) the field quality was low, when in fact Horner beat Nibali only by 37 seconds and Valverde by 1.36. And Nibali's numbers are quite in line with those he did in the Giro, etc.

I am still struggling with the whole concept of Horner's "numbers" in the Vuelta being as good as Froome's in the Tour. Given that Valverde and JRod were no further behind Horner as they were behind Froome (adjusting for V's echolon-split losses) we have to conclude that Valverde and JRod had completely recovered from their Tour efforts.

This seems unlikely, so my conclusions are:

1 - Froome's w/kg estimates are understated

2 - Horner's w/kg estimated are overstated; or

3 - The Tour and Vuelta routes were sufficiently different as to make like-for-like comparisons impossible

And we can add:

4 - Froome and Horner are both doping anyway.

Re Nibali, I also find it hard to believe he was in the same shape for the Vuelta as in the Giro. In the Giro, he was utterly dominant, whereas int he Vuelta he was grovelling. Are his Giro w/kg estimates distorted by the extreme weather that prevailed? Whilst Nibs goes well in the cold, this is relative to everyone else, and in absolute terms, climbing in extreme cold due to rain and/or snow is not condusive to top level performance. I hope this isn't a controversial suggestion - anyone who's ridden a bike knows they go faster on a cool/warm day than a freezing cold day.