When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

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Feb 15, 2011
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Moose McKnuckles said:
Horner climbs very well and TTs at or below average. About what you'd expect from a superb climber.

Frankly, if this were a clean sport, his palmares in European races would be much more impressive.
Agreed, but his age is really what gets me. His performance his much more "normal" than others, but shouldn't he have seen his performance decrease by now? Evans isn't the rider he used to be...
 
gustienordic said:
Agreed, but his age is really what gets me. His performance his much more "normal" than others, but shouldn't he have seen his performance decrease by now? Evans isn't the rider he used to be...
Evans may not be the rider he used to be because he was mixing it up with the top dopers in Europe and appears to have decided to try it pan y agua, or at least cut down.

Gilbert isn't a third of the rider he was in 2011 when he destroyed everyone, for example.
 
Apr 14, 2010
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gustienordic said:
Agreed, but his age is really what gets me. His performance his much more "normal" than others, but shouldn't he have seen his performance decrease by now? Evans isn't the rider he used to be...
Evans is also riding for a team who is either full of now clean former dopers who can't actually hang or just terribly undermotivated. I would hate to make generalisations based on how awful BMC riders are right now.
 
therhodeo said:
Evans is also riding for a team who is either full of now clean former dopers who can't actually hang or just terribly undermotivated. I would hate to make generalisations based on how awful BMC riders are right now.
I predict a sudden rise in performance now that Julich is on board.
 
Moose McKnuckles said:
This comment is typical of posters who basically have zero knowledge of Horner. I'm not defending the guy, but if you're going to post about him, at least be accurate. The guy had DOZENS of results in the States. He's won almost every race there is in in the States.

The guy was known for going on crazy breaks early in his career, while people were laughing at him. Pretty soon, he was dropping them like flies, and they weren't laughing. I don't particularly care for his late-age transformation into Lance's buddy, but I see it as a purely economic decision. He's got kids and not much of a career window left. He's maximizing it. I'm not excusing it, just giving my interpretation.
I think from the context of the conversation it's clear enough that I am referring to his time with FdJ when he got "his *** handed to him" in Europe (his quote).
 
Oct 16, 2009
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Moose McKnuckles said:
Horner climbs very well and TTs at or below average. About what you'd expect from a superb climber.

Frankly, if this were a clean sport, his palmares in European races would be much more impressive.
That's true for pretty much everyone. What makes people think he was clean when he was tearing it up in the US? American sport has always had a massive drug culture.
 
BYOP88 said:
As a (wise) man once said;

"If you’re a cheat, you're a cheat, you're not half a cheat. You wouldn't say, 'I'll cheat here but I'm not going to cheat over there; I'll cheat on a Monday but not on a Tuesday."
JimmyFingers said:
For once we'll agree
Wasn't that Brailsford, one sentence away from snapping that just because Leinders cheated at Rabobank doesn't mean he cheated at Sky?

Regards Horner, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. I probably couldn't throw him as far as I could Froome, but that's only because Froome being taller and thinner makes him a more aerodynamic projectile.
 
BYOP88 said:
Didn't he(Horner) say he was homesick etc during his time at FDJ?
This is the final segment from an article by Horner in Cycle Sport July 1997 talking about his first season in Europe. Clearly I re-typed it as I have no way of uploading the original article and am not typing the whole thing.

Last year in the States everything was going my way. I won 13 races and finished Top 10 in more than 60 races. I was only sick once, and the season in the States was over when that happened. This year I've already been sick three times, and hurt once. I'm homesick and lonely most of the time. It's been difficult to meet friends because I don;t speak French. Before I left for Europe I knew it was going to be a hard year. But I didn't imagine it would be this difficult. I can honestly say it has been the hardest time of my life! To have no friends or family here has been too hard for me right now. The lifestyle is completely different to San Diego. All of these things have made my form go out the window. I hope after some time back in the States I'll be ready to return. But for now the only thing my mind wants to do is California dreamin!!


The rest of the article is about him moving to live just south of Paris, team presentation, training camp, being *****ed out by Max Sciandri for attacking first at Etoile de Besseges, then trying to give the same advice to Scott Mercier. He also mentions pulling a muscle at Haut Var, getting food poisoning at Murcia and seeing his form evaporate before trying to regain it at kermesse races in Belgium before riding De Panne, Flanders and then Basque Country where he was dropped on every hill and flunked out mentally. During the course of the article, he twice mentions how cold it is in Europe compared to San Diego.

I am not posting this in defence or attack of Horner. Just providing info on his early Euro career.
 
pmcg76 said:
Snipped to ridiculous levels...

Mercier. He also mentions pulling a muscle at Haut Var, getting food poisoning at Murcia and seeing his form evaporate before trying to regain it at kermesse races in Belgium before riding De Panne, Flanders and then Basque Country where he was dropped on every hill and flunked out mentally. During the course of the article, he twice mentions how cold it is in Europe compared to San Diego.

I am not posting this in defence or attack of Horner. Just providing info on his early Euro career.
And now almost ready to move into a retirement home, Horner easily drops those Euro club riders on the hill in a GT.

It. doesn't. compute.

Maybe later in his career he can move back to US competing against Mancebo and then why not try South America where Sevilla will be waiting.

The freakshow continues.
 
goggalor said:
That's true for pretty much everyone. What makes people think he was clean when he was tearing it up in the US? American sport has always had a massive drug culture.
First, racers were getting paid peanuts in the US, so affording the types of drugs that the Euro peloton was getting was a non-starter. You think Webcor had the same budget as Gewiss or Festina?

We're not talking about American sport in general. We're talking about American cycling, the poor-man's sport back in the 1990s. Heck, it still is for most of the racers.
 
roundabout said:
I think from the context of the conversation it's clear enough that I am referring to his time with FdJ when he got "his *** handed to him" in Europe (his quote).
Actually, it was not clear at all in this case. Why exactly would you limit your frame of reference just to his time with FdJ?
 
Dazed and Confused said:
And now almost ready to move into a retirement home, Horner easily drops those Euro club riders on the hill in a GT.

It. doesn't. compute.

Maybe later in his career he can move back to US competing against Mancebo and then why not try South America where Sevilla will be waiting.

The freakshow continues.
Well I think there is a slight difference between pro-racing in 1997 and 2013!!! As Horner said, in the weeks leading up to that Basque Country, he was sick and injured and struggling with living in Europe so his morale was rock bottom as his training was poor. He was then flung into De Panne, Flanders and Basque Country started the following day. It wouldn't exactly be surprising he fell apart as that schedule would be completely alien to a US domestic pro, never mind one struggling with the culture in Europe.

See that's the thing, when Horner decided to return to the big league's, he swore he would never live in Europe and as far as I know he doesn't and is in the US at every opportunity, I think he took the attitude that he would do things on his terms when he returned to Europe.

BTW, I think its unbelievable what Horner is still doing at his age so no way am I defending the guy.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Moose McKnuckles said:
First, racers were getting paid peanuts in the US, so affording the types of drugs that the Euro peloton was getting was a non-starter. You think Webcor had the same budget as Gewiss or Festina?

We're not talking about American sport in general. We're talking about American cycling, the poor-man's sport back in the 1990s. Heck, it still is for most of the racers.
Love this stuff, keep going, tell me more about the poor American riders of Horner's generation, they had it tough right?
 
Moose McKnuckles said:
Actually, it was not clear at all in this case. Why exactly would you limit your frame of reference just to his time with FdJ?
That's in response to the "always had the talent" people. Maybe he did, but there was a period when his talent did not match to the results. I don't see why it should be ignored.
 
pmcg76 said:
Well I think there is a slight difference between pro-racing in 1997 and 2013!!! As Horner said, in the weeks leading up to that Basque Country, he was sick and injured and struggling with living in Europe so his morale was rock bottom as his training was poor. He was then flung into De Panne, Flanders and Basque Country started the following day. It wouldn't exactly be surprising he fell apart as that schedule would be completely alien to a US domestic pro, never mind one struggling with the culture in Europe.

See that's the thing, when Horner decided to return to the big league's, he swore he would never live in Europe and as far as I know he doesn't and is in the US at every opportunity, I think he took the attitude that he would do things on his terms when he returned to Europe.

BTW, I think its unbelievable what Horner is still doing at his age so no way am I defending the guy.
PMC76, thanks for all your information. Always good to read your posts.

Actually the main point is not defending him. We already know he turned into the dark side. The main reason for the discussion is that he had always had natural talent to begin with. Looking into his palmares in detail we can see that. Even at lower category races. We see certain fans attacking him and I get the perception that they want to put him in the same basket with Froome although they don't say it. And I repeat, is my perception. That's why they vigorously want to make that point, because they think that by putting Froome in the same Basket with Horner they justify Froome's results. I am not sure if I am making sense here.

In my mind there is no way I want to put Horner with Froome. To me he is the perfect Donkey turned into a racehorse.

And please Redflanders I think all of this post is relevant. Please let it go because deep inside this is what the whole discussion is about otherwise nobody would be questioning Horner to begin with. Who cares really!!!. He is not going anywhere.

If he wins the Vuelta I’ll promise everyone that I’ll attack him with all my heart. But that ain’t going to happen.
 
Escarabajo said:
And please Redflanders I think all of this post is relevant. Please let it go because deep inside this is what the whole discussion is about otherwise nobody would be questioning Horner to begin with. Who cares really!!!. He is not going anywhere.
OK, you make good points. We can move forward with the comparisons but I won't allow it to get into Froome only, Flame Wars or personal insults (veiled or otherwise).

Again, fair points and thanks for pushing on it.
 

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