When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

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EnacheV

BANNED
Jul 7, 2013
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I wish one group of cyclists to start a movement for a 1-2% of salary donation to anti doping.

Also UCI could enforce a small cut from all cycling events related revenues to go in to anti doping.

Helping to clean the sport will return more to them as more money , theoretically, should come in to a clean sport.

But probably it's just utopic thinking.
 
May 18, 2009
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MacRoadie said:
Well, it worked well for Lance back in '09.


Oh wait, never mind...
That's my point. I'm not gonna dig but I wrote on here at the time he was stupid for doing it.
 
EnacheV said:
from the comments section, i find it funny

So from now on. Only riders between 20 and 35 will be allowed to win any tour. They must be voted in by a board of self appointed cycling fan who will be known as "the experts". If at any time a rider happens to do anything that the group of experts think is too much or something they couldn't do or if they are just having a ****y day the rider will be thrown out of the tour. And any rider who attempts to defend himself will immediately be tarred and feathered.

Merckx index said:
So from now on. People will not be allowed to express their views, though they have absolutely no effect whatsoever on the sanctioning process, unless they are voted in by self-appointed cycling fans who believe that anyone who tests negative cannot possibly be positive. If at any time someone expresses an opinion suggesting someone is doping who has not tested positive, this poster will be treated as though he personally had thrown the rider out of the tour. And any poster who attempts to defend his position on the basis of knowledge and experience will immediately be subjected to criticism, not based on evidence against his view, but just because of what his view is.

Skoooled!!!:D
 
Jun 29, 2009
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just a genuine question:
in a 3 week tour you lose weight. but what is it you lose? muscle? fat? water? if part of the answer is water, could this water loss not slow down the fall in hematocrit??
 
Jun 29, 2009
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another genuine question:
i am not an expert in this field
what are the mechanisms that make hematocrit fall in a 3 week tour? can somebody explain why we should always expect a drop?

thanks
 
_nm___ said:
just a genuine question:
in a 3 week tour you lose weight. but what is it you lose? muscle? fat? water? if part of the answer is water, could this water loss not slow down the fall in hematocrit??
While i am not an expert, it is not water but fat. Water loss usually stabilizes within 1-2 days if not training. Since the riders are always training the water loss is minimal. If there is 5 kg of water loss, you could end up severely dehydrated.
 
Jun 25, 2013
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When it comes to Horner and his performance at this year's vuelta I am a big cynic but as it turns out that there isn't too much in the numbers to be cynical about - hence their release :rolleyes:
 
Pretty sure Horner and his handlers would not have approved the release of numbers that would affirm 'guilt'.
This is an exercise in futility for those looking for trouble and looks simply like a PR move to quiet...
 
thrawn said:
CN should ask Ashenden or another expert to analyse the data and offer an opinion.
Ashenden could be an expert, but Ramnus Damsgaard give him a good lesson last time he talked.

But I am agree, an expert must analyse the data... I understand that UCI analise the data with experts already anyway, that is the biopassport.
 
weedkiller 25.sep.2013 | 23:47
#16

La clase de la anemia dilucional te la perdiste, ¿verdad? En las 2 ultimas semanas para nada se muestra un aumento de la hemoglobina sino se muestra que el día 3 entra un anemia y posteriormente se recupera con unos valores bastante normales los cuales lleva por el estilo 5 años. 1 día de descanso, una contrareloj y 2 etapas finalizadas dentro del grupo rodando cómodo permiten recuperar@opinionator

I have read this form an spanish forum, hrotha and anothers could understand it, that means:

He talk about to take in account dilutional anemia ... In the last 2 weeks he doesnt show at all an increase in hemoglobin but shows that on 3 goes into a sickle and later recovers fairly normal values ​​which carries 5 years like that. One day of rest, a time trial and 2 in the group stages completed comfortable rolling can retrieve @ opinionator


I would like to see the same for Nibali, Valverde and Purito. If they have similar variations or clearly differents, becouse if just Horner has that soft increase at the end, could be to my eyes suspicious, other way, without be an expert, I cant say more...

It was the same for Wiggins and Lance in the Tour, similar graphic, but different for Lance in the Giro, but I didnt see more to have an opinion, I am not an expert, but I have read to hrotha in an spanish forum to say the values are not normal, and now I dont think so, maybe that is the normal graphic to a real champion, or maybe he is right, I have no idea, but the wethers those days was warm and wet in the Cantabric coast, so deshidratation is normal, and that is a factor.

I dont Know when there is a fall in the Hc values if that is the only possibility, or it is a sign of weakness or a sign to be tired or not in shape or if a true champion could keep his values or even increase during a 3 weeks Vuelta, but there was 2 rest days in the second week.

So, an expert must talk, an impartial expert, not the expert we consider right
 
Aug 12, 2009
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^^^ Seriously? Too much sangria for you the last 24 hours is it?

Anemia? If he were anemic at the end of a GT, his crit count would be at 38% and lower. It increased which is abnormal. You need to do some reading on hematology. I'd find you the threads but I have places to be. Sorry.

therhodeo said:
Ok so tell me this. Posting these numbers. Ignorance, stupidity, or arrogance?
All three? He learnt from Lance and is not as bright. I don't think I need to label Horner. It is what it is.

goggalor said:
Horner is a ****ing idiot. His interviews always gave that impression, this confirms it.
Not the brightest cookie for sure. His interviews in 2010 when Lance was getting schooled by Contador and Schleck confirmed the above for me. I must say he has improved a bit. Might have been practising in front of the mirror at night.
 
Merckx index said:
Except that most analysts think LA's Giro data are OK. The HT/Hb drop as they should. It's his TDF data that year that are suspicious, and particularly when compared to the Giro, which is used as a baseline of what would be normal.
But you are sure of that? are you an expert to aseverate that??
I would like to be sure of that, but in that case, anybody publish that kind of data.

You must consider at least the dehidratation, and Giro finished usually with low temperatures (not as much as this year), and Tour with high, and Vuelta this year with medium temperature and hight humidity.
That is a first factor.

But, without been an expert, if Lance was in the Giro after a crash getting his shape, I ask: there is not a relationship between shape and hematocrit, as there is one between hamatocrit and performance??

If the baseline is Lance's Giro, and there is not possible another pretty different to be belived, yes, that way Wiggins, Lance and horner were dopers, maybe small dopers, but dopers anyway, for sure, but, I dont have a clear answer for those questions still...
 
Galic Ho said:
^^^ Seriously? Too much sangria for you the last 24 hours is it?
I havent ever drink sangria, sorry, and I didnt drink alcohol in the last three weeks.

Athlete dilutional Seudoanemia

In endurance athletes frequently diagnosed seudoanemia a process known as dilution, which should
differentiate true anemia (usually due to iron deficiency).
The dilution is due to seudoanemia
athletes that increases the amount of plasma, while the cell
remains at normal levels. this
Thus, the relationship RBC / plasma (or
that is, the hematocrit) decreases,
which can be confused with a situation of
true anemia.

It is sometimes difficult to differentiate anemia
true of a dilutional seudoanemia box.

In these cases must procedersecomo iron deficiency anemia if it were, through the continuous supply of iron for at least two months, making a
New Control by blood test
end of treatment: increases in
hemoglobin in at least one gram
per deciliter used to diagnose "a posteriori" that the picture was actually a deficiency anemia



What that man means in that forums it is just a possibility anyway.

For me, i believe in Horner and in currently cycling, at least in the World Tour, but this is not for me an evidence of not doping, it is just an evidence that we are in an era very different to the era of Pantani finishing Giro at 52 or more.

I would like to see more biopassport, and more controls from the past.
 
Galic Ho said:
^^^ Seriously? Too much sangria for you the last 24 hours is it?
I havent ever drink sangria, sorry, and I didnt drink alcohol in the last three weeks.

Athlete dilutional Seudoanemia

In endurance athletes frequently diagnosed seudoanemia a process known as dilution, which should
differentiate true anemia (usually due to iron deficiency).
The dilution is due to seudoanemia
athletes that increases the amount of plasma, while the cell
remains at normal levels. this
Thus, the relationship RBC / plasma (or
that is, the hematocrit) decreases,
which can be confused with a situation of
true anemia.

It is sometimes difficult to differentiate anemia
true of a dilutional seudoanemia box.

In these cases must procedersecomo iron deficiency anemia if it were, through the continuous supply of iron for at least two months, making a
New Control by blood test
end of treatment: increases in
hemoglobin in at least one gram
per deciliter used to diagnose "a posteriori" that the picture was actually a deficiency anemia



What that man means in that forums it is just a possibility anyway.

For me, i believe in Horner and in currently cycling, at least in the World Tour, but this is not for me an evidence of not doping, it is just an evidence that we are in an era very different to the era of Pantani finishing Giro at 52 or more.

I would like to see more biopassport, and more controls from the past.


And about this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-probably-clean-in-comeback-damsgaard-claims

“but you have to know when the samples are taken and I think that I know a little more about that than Robin Parisotto does.”

For example, he said, one of the blood tests was done after the finish of the penultimate stage atop the Mont Ventoux -- “15 minutes after suffering through 40° heat. After six hours of racing. It is not a viable test."

That is something we need to know.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Ashenden said:
“Suppressed red blood cell production is a classic signature associated with blood doping. The body reacts to the presence of excess red cells in circulation by suppressing the bone marrow’s production of new cells.”
Ashenden said:
“The absence of a natural decline in blood concentration during a three-week race is also consistent with blood doping.”
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13022/Ashenden-echoes-Parisottos-concerns-over-Armstrongs-2009-blood-values.aspx#ixzz2fxW5XgTQ

Mørkeberg said:
“If you look at his [Armstrong's] values during the year up to the Tour, the reticulocyte values are pretty much what you would expect, around 1%. There are analytical variations and biological variations to that parameter as for any other parameter. Then at the beginning of the Tour, it's half, .5%, which is producing half the red blood cells that you would expect. The reason why you get a decrease in your reticulocyte values is when you have an increased amount of hemoglobin. Your body does not have to produce as much as usual.”
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/armstrongs-bio-passport-critic-speaks

Mørkeberg said:
"What we know from our research is that during periods of hard activity, like in the Tour de France, we normally see a drop in these [Hb & Hct] blood values.”
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated

Now look at Horner's values.
 
May 27, 2012
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Irrespective of what his data shows, Horner is loads more brave than that wimpy coward Froome. Hey Froomedog, release the data man, release the data.
 
Jun 25, 2013
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ChewbaccaD said:
Irrespective of what his data shows, Horner is loads more brave than that wimpy coward Froome. Hey Froomedog, release the data man, release the data.
Maybe he will for future tours since I can't see the clinic finding too much wrong in Horner's numbers...
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Taxus4a said:
I havent ever drink sangria, sorry, and I didnt drink alcohol in the last three weeks.

Athlete dilutional Seudoanemia

In endurance athletes frequently diagnosed seudoanemia a process known as dilution, which should
differentiate true anemia (usually due to iron deficiency).
The dilution is due to seudoanemia
athletes that increases the amount of plasma, while the cell
remains at normal levels. this
Thus, the relationship RBC / plasma (or
that is, the hematocrit) decreases,
which can be confused with a situation of
true anemia.

It is sometimes difficult to differentiate anemia
true of a dilutional seudoanemia box.

In these cases must procedersecomo iron deficiency anemia if it were, through the continuous supply of iron for at least two months, making a
New Control by blood test
end of treatment: increases in
hemoglobin in at least one gram
per deciliter used to diagnose "a posteriori" that the picture was actually a deficiency anemia



What that man means in that forums it is just a possibility anyway.

For me, i believe in Horner and in currently cycling, at least in the World Tour, but this is not for me an evidence of not doping, it is just an evidence that we are in an era very different to the era of Pantani finishing Giro at 52 or more.

I would like to see more biopassport, and more controls from the past.


And about this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-probably-clean-in-comeback-damsgaard-claims

“but you have to know when the samples are taken and I think that I know a little more about that than Robin Parisotto does.”

For example, he said, one of the blood tests was done after the finish of the penultimate stage atop the Mont Ventoux -- “15 minutes after suffering through 40° heat. After six hours of racing. It is not a viable test."

That is something we need to know.
Yeah that last bit. JV was on the forum sprouting the same nonsense. Have the forum ever heard from a blood expert, like Ashenden, that taking samples after exertion somehow magically transforms the blood and makes it inappropriate for testing? Nope. Just another apologist argument so they can have time to mask a team mate or riders doping.

The plasma issue has been done and dusted. Pump in a few hundred cc's or mls or red blood cells and your crit goes up. How do you bring it down and appear normal? Pump in plasma that has been separated before hand. So total red blood cell count INCREASES, off-score changes because hey, the body knows it doesn't need to make new retics and thus both readings go wacky. BUT the point is total red blood cell and blood volume HAS INCREASED. You literally have more blood and thus can go harder. It's simple science. When they make a total blood volume test, then and only then will they stop this crap. This is exactly what Horner's values depict; a man who pumped in some extra blood, total volume increased and he leveled it out with some plasma, but not accurately enough to make it look clean. If his off-score went off by 40 points as people are saying he should be banned on the spot. Actually every cyclist should...but it's allowed by the rules. The BioPassport DOES NOT WORK properly. It has fundamental statistical flaws within it.

Do you know the actual level of dehydration an athlete can perform at before their output suffers? It's 2%. There is a reason cyclists have domestiques to carry bottles. Literally the only explanations for a wacky off-score are

1. Dehydration: does not fit because if you're dehydrated, you have a Floyd Landis stage 16 2006 Tour de France episode. You literally implode and bonk.
2. Pregnant: we don't need to check up any skirts to debunk this one. Horner is not a hemaphrodite.
3. Diarrhea: I don't even want to think about this one. Did you see Chris jump off his bike to take a dump on the side of the road anytime?

Every other reason is an excuse. The science is simple. Horner got a few blood bags and was most likely micro dosing epo. Just like we've known they're doing for a while now. He is not the only one, but he is the only one stupid enough to release his figures. Sadly people don't look into the science, which is simple enough to understand. Like I said, check the graphs back a page or two. The upper limit for off-score naturally should be 95...100 IMO is the maximum. Over that and you are clearly blood doping because nothing else logical explains it. Did you know the ABP limit for Off-score is 130? You literally have so much leeway to go mental it isn't funny...hence why I made joke about Bottle, aka Levi Leipheimer, Horner's old climbing buddy. He had multiple scores over 115. But don't let that get in the way of a good story, because that would spoil the fun in Levi only doping up till the 2007 Tour and then riding clean. :D
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Galic Ho said:
If his off-score went off by 40 points as people are saying he should be banned on the spot. Actually every cyclist should...but it's allowed by the rules. The BioPassport DOES NOT WORK properly. It has fundamental statistical flaws within it.
That is over a period of 5 years time. The magicians have mastered the bio passport already.

Pretty obvious why Chris climbs out of the saddle, he has his IV mounted at the top of his racing shirt ;)

And again, he is the most open cyclist around when it comes to releasing data.
 

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