When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[BYOP88]

So lets not wet the bed 'cos it looked like some riders were climbing at faster speeds than a Plane reaches during takeoff, there was a tailwind on the entire climb/stage

Great ride by Horner today, just goes to show you how important diet is and that fast food just gets bad PR.

 

[VP2013]

Michael Rasmussen on Danish tv today



Ha

The larger question I have is what is he doing? Certainly HGh and Test can help an older rider but we all know oxygen vector doping is where it is at. He has been in the US for months. Only went to Spain 3 days before the race. If he is transfusing how does he get the blood bags to Spain? It is not as simple as people think. You need extract 3-4 weeks prior, transfer and store them correctly. We have all read stories about blood doping, none involved transatlantic transport.....well, except maybe Lance on his private jet

If he slammed a bag right after Utah, using the "I was at altitude" defense for the raise in HCT, how does he do so well entering the 3rd week. With the exception of a bad TT he has not lost a step.

How much of an increase in peak power output would you get from oxygen vector doping? Just wondering.

 

[131313]

Note that many of those include preservative that are tested for. Storage also can results in damage to the RBC, as much as 50%. That can lead to a lot of peeing black.

There's currently no test that can detect the most common forms freezing red blood cells, so the time issue really isn't a factor. RBC's can be stored for years, not months, with little degradation and no real chance of detection.

Something to keep in mind is that all new tests have to meet a standard of review that makes it pretty unlikely that a "new" test will end up surprising all but the least cautious. Even testing methodologies in the near future are pretty well-understood, just by searching PubMed.

I think Rasmussen's comments were right on.

 

[red_flanders]

That picture is ridiculous.

Nibali gritting his teeth while papa Horner looks like he's on a recovery ride...

He always looks like that.

 

[jilbiker]

Recovery

I am baffled how a 42yr old is able to recover so well for strenuous GT rides. I don't care about diet and exercise, its got to be somewhat impossible. Anyone over 40 knows about those pains that suddenly start after exercise that you did not feel in your 20's.

If Horner wins this GT, does that offer hope for the rest of cycling? Chris Froome can win 10 more GTs?, Contador's poor form is no longer due to age?

 

[Hugh Januss]

That picture is ridiculous.

Nibali gritting his teeth while papa Horner looks like he's on a recovery ride...

TBF that is Horner's version of a grimace. Remember "Smilin'" George Mount?

 

[red_flanders]

I am baffled how a 42yr old is able to recover so well for strenuous GT rides. I don't care about diet and exercise, its got to be somewhat impossible. Anyone over 40 knows about those pains that suddenly start after exercise that you did not feel in your 20's.

If Horner wins this GT, does that offer hope for the rest of cycling? Chris Froome can win 10 more GTs?, Contador's poor form is no longer due to age?

It's also much, much harder to control your weight. For most people. There are of course many exceptions, and wouldn't be surprising if top sportsmen were among them.

 

[Race Radio]

There's currently no test that can detect the most common forms freezing red blood cells, so the time issue really isn't a factor. RBC's can be stored for years, not months, with little degradation and no real chance of detection.

Something to keep in mind is that all new tests have to meet a standard of review that makes it pretty unlikely that a "new" test will end up surprising all but the least cautious. Even testing methodologies in the near future are pretty well-understood, just by searching PubMed.

I think Rasmussen's comments were right on.

I hear both, that storage leads to damage and that it is minimal. Would be interesting to know what the answer is. There are several tests being developed that focus on the storage element and the damage it does to the cells. If I am aware of them then I assume riders are as well. There is also the added issue of the sudden increase in old cells. Harder to balance your off score with EPO these days

CERA is a good example of a test that riders were not aware of. Certainly riders are talking about the microdosing EPO test today, especially after Di Luca

 

[Hugh Januss]

True. The testing is too good these days. Horner is showing what he can do now that the dopers are gone from the sport.

I really think the fall of Armstrong scared most of the peloton straight. There were still vestiges old ways at the Tour but those ways are declining. There is a good chance that Chris can pull off the first clean GT win since LeMond.

Fixed it for you.

 

[mewmewmew13]

If anything he is getting stronger

It gets more amazing by the day!

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

With the new test it is pretty risky to use EPO. Supposedly caught Di Luca and maybe Santebrogio

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13859/New-EPO-test-could-help-stamp-out-microdosing.aspx

The question does not just apply to Chris but many in the upper levels of the sport. What methods are riders using these days? When Puerto came out it surprised few in the sport as many knew transfusions were happening but these days I hear much less detail on the methods riders are using. Likely because they have wised up about talking about them

That test has not been implemented yet. I think they lowered the threshold on the older test, which combined with early morning testing probably means old school microdosing is too risky. But LA-era microdosing seems to have been able to raise Hb-mass by 10%, judging by the Ashenden study, so even half that would still be a significant boost.

 

[mewmewmew13]

True. The testing is too good these days. Horner is showing what he can do now that the dopers are gone from the sport.

I really think the fall of Armstrong scared most of the peloton straight. There were still vestiges old ways at the Tour but those ways are declining. There is a good chance that Chris can pull off the first clean GT win since LeMond.

*wink wink*

Junior members show up with logic and complete understanding

Horner is a amazing talent

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

It was also mentioned in his book the the loss through freezing was just 10% (of course that was according to Fuentes).

I hear both, that storage leads to damage and that it is minimal. Would be interesting to know what the answer is. There are several tests being developed that focus on the storage element and the damage it does to the cells.

There's currently no test that can detect the most common forms freezing red blood cells, so the time issue really isn't a factor. RBC's can be stored for years, not months, with little degradation and no real chance of detection.

Here's an actual study by Ash and some danish fellow that is not an anti doping expert.

Net haemoglobin increase from reinfusion of refrigerated vs. frozen red blood cells after autologous blood transfusions.
Ashenden M, Mørkeberg J.

BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVES  Two main blood storage procedures can be used for storing red blood cells: refrigeration and freezing. Nevertheless, the efficiency of these procedures measured as the increase in haemoglobin after reinfusion compared with baseline has never been examined. The main objective was to examine which storage procedure yielded the largest increase in circulating haemoglobin after reinfusion compared to baseline. MATERIALS AND METHODS  Equal volumes of blood from 15 men were withdrawn and stored either frozen or refrigerated as packed red blood cells. Serial measures of circulating haemoglobin by carbon monoxide rebreathing provided an opportunity to monitor recovery from anaemia, as well as the net increase in circulating haemoglobin after transfusion. RESULTS  The post-thaw yield of haemoglobin in the bags was 72% after refrigerated storage compared with only 52% after freezing. Nevertheless, frozen storage allowed haemoglobin to fully recover before reinfusion, while the haemoglobin was 10% lower in the refrigerated group compared with baseline. After reinfusion, the haemoglobin levels were 11·5% higher than the baseline values in the group reinfused with frozen blood, while for the refrigerated group, haemoglobin levels were only 5·2% higher than baseline. CONCLUSION  The relatively larger recovery from anaemia in the frozen group during storage more than compensated for the larger loss of haemoglobin during freezing and resulted in a larger net gain in haemoglobin. Based on the average 23 g per week recovery of haemoglobin, extending refrigerated storage to 7-8 weeks may yield sufficient time for patients to fully replenish harvested haemoglobin from three bags of blood without reliance on frozen storage of RBC.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21534982

 

[Race Radio]

That test has not been implemented yet. I think they lowered the threshold on the older test, which combined with early morning testing probably means old school microdosing is too risky. But LA-era microdosing seems to have been able to raise Hb-mass by 10%, judging by the Ashenden study, so even half that would still be a significant boost.

Most Microdosing was used to keep rect high when transfusing, not to increase Hct. Makes the Off Score more believable. With the narrow window, especially with a targeted rider, I doubt the old way of direct in the vain and drink lots of water works that well anymore. There also seems to be progress on the RNA test for transfusions. That could be a game changer

Have to wonder what the new methods are. We are mostly talking about methods that were used 7-8 years ago. They must be on to something new.

 

[hfer07]

So is Horner still going to fade in the 3rd week or what?

at 41 y.o. is expected to happen, but he's surely proving human nature wrong

 

[Merckx index]

I hear both, that storage leads to damage and that it is minimal. Would be interesting to know what the answer is. There are several tests being developed that focus on the storage element and the damage it does to the cells. If I am aware of them then I assume riders are as well. There is also the added issue of the sudden increase in old cells. Harder to balance your off score with EPO these days

CERA is a good example of a test that riders were not aware of. Certainly riders are talking about the microdosing EPO test today, especially after Di Luca

Some studies have reported some loss of viable cells, but I'm not aware of any studies reporting major loss or damage, to the point where it would completely eliminate the advantages of freezing.

There are tests being developed based on changes in the red cell membranes, but as 13 notes, you can't just spring them on the peloton. The phthalate test that caught Contador by surprise is a good example. Though in the end it was allowed as supplementary evidence, it was not allowed to be used as a standalone test.

The case of CERA is somewhat different, since it was just a modification of previous tests for EPO. It had already been established that any test demonstrating the presence of synthetic EPO was valid evidence of doping, so as far as approval goes, the heavy lifting had already been accomplished. This was not case with the phthalate test, nor would it be the case with the current research on degradation of red cell membrane markers. Approval of such a test would require evidence that these changes are significant in transfused cells, and they don't occur in endogenous cell populations.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the added issue of the sudden increase in old cells". The fact that the cells are "old" is only relevant if there is a test for old cells, which as just discussed, does not yet exist in approved form. Transfusion of course does result in an increase in mature cells, but this is masked by dilution, and its suppression of retic formation, as always, is masked by using EPO to stimulate the latter.

At the risk of being ridiculed, I will bring up the possibility of beetroot juice. IIRC, Horner was claiming he used that before? There are some studies of its effects which suggest that while on average those effects are not very great, in certain individuals (super-responders?) there might be a large benefit.

 

[Race Radio]

Here's an actual study by Ash and some danish fellow that is not an anti doping expert.

Net haemoglobin increase from reinfusion of refrigerated vs. frozen red blood cells after autologous blood transfusions.
Ashenden M, Mørkeberg J.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21534982

Thanks. This corresponds with the 50% figure I used earlier. That is a lot of dead cells

FYI, Mørkeberg is definitely an anti-doping expert. One of the best in his field. Don't know what JV is talking about

 

[Race Radio]

Some studies have reported some loss of viable cells, but I'm not aware of any studies reporting major loss or damage, to the point where it would completely eliminate the advantages of freezing.

There are tests being developed based on changes in the red cell membranes, but as 13 notes, you can't just spring them on the peloton. The phthalate test that caught Contador by surprise is a good example. Though in the end it was allowed as supplementary evidence, it was not allowed to be used as a standalone test.

The case of CERA is somewhat different, since it was just a modification of previous tests for EPO. It had already been established that any test demonstrating the presence of synthetic EPO was valid evidence of doping, so as far as approval goes, the heavy lifting had already been accomplished. This was not case with the phthalate test, nor would it be the case with the current research on degradation of red cell membrane markers. Approval of such a test would require evidence that these changes are significant in transfused cells, and they don't occur in endogenous cell populations.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the added issue of the sudden increase in old cells". The fact that the cells are "old" is only relevant if there is a test for old cells, which as just discussed, does not yet exist in approved form. Transfusion of course does result in an increase in mature cells, but this is masked by dilution, and its suppression of retic formation, as always, is masked by using EPO to stimulate the latter.

At the risk of being ridiculed, I will bring up the possibility of beetroot juice. IIRC, Horner was claiming he used that before? There are some studies of its effects which suggest that while on average those effects are not very great, in certain individuals (super-responders?) there might be a large benefit.

Note the Ashenden study, 52% yield after freezing is a big drop

There are several testes being funded by WADA. One focused on the damage storage does cells. Given we have heard about this for years I doubt it will go anywhere. The other is focused on the age of the cells. As it is based on a test that is already in use in the medical world it has a higher likelihood of being used soon, in fact it was supposed to be used for the London Olympics. A sudden influx of old cells could be picked up by the RNA test but it would also make your Off Score wacky if you cant micro dose EPO to keep your rect up

 

[Dr_Lexus]

It gets more amazing by the day!

Sometimes our own view on the world stops us believing.

We all know that cycling has got cleaner. I don't think it's too hard to believe that this is a clean performance. Or at least not on the big drugs.

He works hard. Trains hard. He has not had the tough season nibiali has had.

 

[Merckx index]

Note the Ashenden study, 52% yield after freezing is a big drop

If you read through the entire Abstract, they find that transfusing frozen cells actually resulted in a significantly larger boost than transfusing refrigerated cells. So as I said, nothing here to encourage anyone to use refrigerated rather than frozen cells.

Second, while they report that Hb was decreased by 50% in the frozen cells, after reinfusion, there was an increase of 11.5% over baseline. I haven’t seen the whole article, but an 11.5% increase would correspond to about 800 ml of packed cells, or 1.6 l of packed cells of which 50% were dead. I doubt very much they infused 1.6 l. of packed cells, so the 50% figure apparently does not refer to dead cells, but rather to inactive hemoglobin on “live” cells (I use quotes, because red cells are not nucleated, and not really alive in the sense that most cells in the body are, anyway). IOW, after freezing, about half the hemoglobin was inactivated (versus about 30% on refrigerated cells), but after thawing and reinfusion, this hemoglobin apparently recovered (or was replaced by normal hemoglobin).

Again, I emphasize that I haven’t read the whole article, and am not quite sure what they are saying, but the data in the Abstract are not consistent with any dead cells, let alone 50%. Frankly, I doubt the researchers would have infused the volunteers with blood that contained a 50% population of dead cells. Anyone who has read Tyler's book (or followed the Ricco drama) knows that you can get very sick this way. It seems to me that this would be highly unethical and unallowed in a clinical trial.

There are several testes being funded by WADA. One focused on the damage storage does cells. Given we have heard about this for years I doubt it will go anywhere. The other is focused on the age of the cells. As it is based on a test that is already in use in the medical world it has a higher likelihood of being used soon, in fact it was supposed to be used for the London Olympics.

There are a number of approaches being tried. I'll just point out that "damaged" vs. "age" is not really a clear distinction. The point is that cells that have been removed from the body and reinfused undergo certain molecular changes. Whether one refers to such changes as damage or the result of aging is somewhat arbitrary. Aging is a damaging process. The wrinkles in our skin, the weaker muscles, the slower reaction times, etc., etc., that accompany aging are all the results of tissue damage of some kind.

 

[webbie146]

"Horner concluded: “Tomorrow I will sleep and eat, plus train a little on the trainer. It’s a big four days still to come.”

lol Yea sure.. sleep and eat, I think he forgot something

 

[Oldman]

If anything he is getting stronger

He's so much fresher than the others he may not fall off. His history as a GT support rider didn't show significant fall off unless he was ordered to shepherd a contender in trouble.
As for the age issue I don't see it as a problem if he has remained somewhat clean during his career. His motivation to train is clearly there and that's the first element to go in a abused Euro rider. By motivation I mean the need for at least one more big contract...

 

[sniper]

Armstrong even nicknamed Horner "redneck" at the team's Tenerife camp last December

redneck, a play of words of some kind?

 

[Oldman]

He had the nickname long before riding with Armstrong.

 

[sniper]

i'm finding mixed info on horner.
on wikipedia he's said to be a native from Bend, Oregon (info apparently drawn from USA Cycling).
in other places, however, he's said to be a native from California.

RR, or anybody else, any ideas where in the States exactly Horner has been/trained/prepared in the past couple of months?