When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[hrotha]

USADA can include that right after UKADA issues a report implicating Froome based on the overwhelming circumstantial evidence of his ludicrous Tour performance.

Seriously, this is getting tiresome. If we had to wait for all national antidoping agencies and federations to apply the exact same standards before doing anything, nothing would ever be done. Armstrong would still be a 7-time Tour winner because the AEA never bothered investigating Indurain.

Froome being ridiculous has nothing to do with Horner in the USADA's Reasoned Decision.

 

[neineinei]

When USADA published its reasoned decision it didn't take long before there were discussions on every cycling forum on the Internet about who the redacted names were in the affidavits. What are the chances that the riders in todays peloton didn't read the affidavits and discuss it too? Of course Horner knows if he is mentioned in Levi's affidavit or not. If he couldn't bring himself to read the affidavits he has still heard plenty about them.

 

[The Hitch]

Wiggins did not need a reasoned decision. He had Armstrong's teammates telling him Armstrong was a doper. Yet he still publicly protected Armstrong, even though his livelihood did not depend on it. Horner was just doin' what a man's gotta do.

this is the crux of the issue.

Interesting that del who had been going back and forth with you until that point, decided to ignore your post once you raised this point - that Wiggins had been told by vaughters so knew full well Armstrong had cheated. He defended Armstrong and at times attacked his accusers nonetheless. How is that different from Horner. It isn't. They both defended lance despite knowing he cheated.

 

[del1962]

this is the crux of the issue.

Interesting that del who had been going back and forth with you until that point, decided to ignore your post once you raised this point - that Wiggins had been told by vaughters so knew full well Armstrong had cheated. He defended Armstrong and at times attacked his accusers nonetheless. How is that different from Horner. It isn't. They both defended lance despite knowing he cheated.

The crux if the issue is that Horner is likely rider 15, and as much as the likes of BroDeal want to make it about Froome, he is not in Levi or any other rider's affadavit, nor is Wiggins which is a great dissapointment to BroDeal and possibly yourself.

 

[The Hitch]

The crux if the issue is that Horner is likely rider 15, and as much as the likes of BroDeal want to make it about Froome, he is not in Levi or any other rider's affadavit, nor is Wiggins which is a great dissapointment to BroDeal and possibly yourself.

I am not talking about rider 15 though. You said you dont trust Horner because it looks like he is rider 15, and that is fair enough, but you also said on many many occasions that another reason you dont trust Horner is because of how he defended Lance and THAT is the issue I am taking up now.

How is Horner defending Lance after USADA told him Lance had doped, any worse than all the things Wiggins did in support of Lance after Jonathan Vaughters told him Lance had doped?

In the case of Horner it clearly seemed important to you because you mentioned it a number of times. Why not with your favourite rider Wiggins?

When a poster makes abundantly clean which riders they support and is always seen defending those riders (you even once put 90:10 the percentage chances that sky are clean:dirty) and they are then percieved to be holding other riders to different standards than the ones they use for those riders they support, people do naturally ask questions about that.

 

[BroDeal]

The crux if the issue is that Horner is likely rider 15, and as much as the likes of BroDeal want to make it about Froome, he is not in Levi or any other rider's affadavit, nor is Wiggins which is a great dissapointment to BroDeal and possibly yourself.

He does not have to be in the USADA report. A talentless rider equaling the performance of a talented rider on drugs, like Armstrong, says it all to anyone with a brain.

Bringing up Horner saying a good word about Armstrong is just stupid. For someone in Horner's position at the time, bad mouthing Armstrong would be like bad mouthing the boss' son. Wiggins on the other hand had secured a multi-year contract worth millions. He has no excuse other than he feels a need to defend dopers.

 

[sittingbison]

Take a deep breath and remain calm gemtle(wo)men. Ball not player

Cheers
Bison

 

[gooner]

He does not have to be in the USADA report. A talentless rider equaling the performance of a talented rider on drugs, like Armstrong, says it all to anyone with a brain.

Bringing up Horner saying a good word about Armstrong is just stupid. For someone in Horner's position at the time, bad mouthing Armstrong would be like bad mouthing the boss' son. Wiggins on the other hand had secured a multi-year contract worth millions. He has no excuse other than he feels a need to defend dopers.

As far as I'm aware Lance was the only one of note he defended(I agree he deserves criticism for it). He still had no problem in dishing it out to others.

One difference with Horner now is that Wiggins has changed his tune in the aftermath of the USADA report and has done nothing like Horner did in chasing down Hincapie durng the Tour for speaking out.

 

[zigmeister]

Why wouldn't Horner just admit his role and take a 6 month training vacation? To preserve some of his dignity?

It was easy for the rest to do with basically no ramifications to their careers except Levi.

 

[hrotha]

Gooner, that just makes Wiggins more of a hypocrite. Since he knew Armstrong's story perfectly well long before the USADA reasoned decision, the reason why he changed his public stance can't be that he learned that LA doped, or that he was an a-hole. The most likely explanation is simply that he went with what he thought the public wanted after LA's fall.

 

[The Hitch]

One difference with Horner now is that Wiggins has changed his tune in the aftermath of the USADA report and has done nothing like Horner did in chasing down Hincapie durng the Tour for speaking out.

Publically saying Landis was lying when he knew perfectly well Landis was telling the truth, is nothing like that?

The most likely explanation is simply that he went with what he thought the public wanted after LA's fall.

Or what Sky and Bailsford told him, since his turning on Lance was a prerecorded interview on Sky's own channel - Sky news, and the same day Bailsford did his own media push.

Wiggins was as late as the 2012 olympics, which was like 2 weeks before the August 23rd explosion, giving Lance credit for the perfect season wiggins has had, as they had been in contact the whole time and Lance was according to wiggins, giving him advice (same thing wiggins said 4 months earlier on the PN podium).

Not long after that hes telling the press how much he hates Lance, how he disgusted him etc.

 

[BroDeal]

Why wouldn't Horner just admit his role and take a 6 month training vacation? To preserve some of his dignity?

It was easy for the rest to do with basically no ramifications to their careers except Levi.

Why would he? Even if Leipheimer's info is legit and can be corroborated then it is still outside the statute of limitations.

The best plan is to pull a Wiggins or Hesjedal: Let his performance tail off while making excuses.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Good to see the debate over which slimy cheater is the worst is still raging full force.

 

[gooner]

Gooner, that just makes Wiggins more of a hypocrite. Since he knew Armstrong's story perfectly well long before the USADA reasoned decision, the reason why he changed his public stance can't be that he learned that LA doped, or that he was an a-hole. The most likely explanation is simply that he went with what he thought the public wanted after LA's fall.

True. I won't defend Wiggins and his closeness with Lance on his return. He obviously made the mistake in this instance and I can't explain his position of defending him publicly even with all the info he knew from his time at Garmin while taking a different position hitting out at others like Contador, Vino, Rasmussen and Di Luca . That's why I disagree with BroDeal's point that he is a defender of all dopers.

My guess is through this closeness he compromised himself too much and he did touch on this saying he didn't speak out because of the influence Lance held at the time. That still doesn't make it any better of course. I think from a distance with Lance out of the sport, he felt more comfortable to speak out

 

[gooner]

Publically saying Landis was lying when he knew perfectly well Landis was telling the truth, is nothing like that?

I did say in the aftermath of the USADA report. I already said I won't defend his public defence of Lance at that time. Wiggins hasn't done anything like Horner did with Hincapie.

 

[hrotha]

True. I won't defend Wiggins and his closeness with Lance on his return. He obviously made the mistake in this instance and I can't explain his position of defending him publicly even with all the info he knew from his time at Garmin while taking a different position hitting out at others like Contador, Vino, Rasmussen and Di Luca . That's why I disagree with BroDeal's point that he is a defender of all dopers.

My guess is through this closeness he compromised himself too much and he did touch on this saying he didn't speak out because of the influence Lance held at the time. That still doesn't make it any better of course. I think from a distance with Lance out of the sport, he felt more comfortable to speak out

Problem is, he only really became close with Armstrong (and thus compromised himself) when he already rode for Garmin and knew the whole story. Getting close to the LA camp was a choice he made when all the relevant info was available to him. And, as has been pointed out countless times, there's a midpoint between speaking out against LA and defending him, namely staying silent, which is what most sane people did.

You make it sound like he was just sticking up for a friend of his and thus couldn't be objective, as he chose loyalty and friendship over consistency or rationality - which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The way you word it, his "mistake" was a bad judgment call rather than a bad strategic decision from a PR point of view.

I did say in the aftermath of the USADA report.

Before or after the reasoned decision, it's irrelevant because Wiggins already knew the truth long before. It only matters from a PR point of view, but then that hardly vindicates Wiggins, does it.

 

[The Hitch]

Wiggins hasn't done anything like Horner did with Hincapie.

I think calling Landis a drunk is very similar. Before or after USADA doesn't make a difference.

Its directly going after someone who threatens the Lance myth.

 

[BroDeal]

That's why I disagree with BroDeal's point that he is a defender of all dopers.

I did not say all dopers. Wiggins appears to follow a more cowardly approach. He attacks riders who are disliked and defends those who are in the peloton's good graces. Basically he is an enforcer of omertà.

Horner on the other hands on record for calling out the performance of U.S. Postal.

 

[The Hitch]

The way you word it, his "mistake" was a bad judgment call rather than a bad strategic decision from a PR point of view..

Vaughters said they were bff's during the 2009 tour.

Bradleys friendship with Lance seems to me to have been very real.

Thats why there was so much passion in Wiggins' support for Lance. He didn't just say the words, he went out to hurt Landis with insults. He went out to hurt Lances detractors when he said that they should understand that they had all benefited from him even if they didn't like him.

 

[hrotha]

Vaughters said they were bff's during the 2009 tour.

Bradleys friendship with Lance seems to me to have been very real.

Thats why there was so much passion in Wiggins' support for Lance. He didn't just say the words, he went out to hurt Landis with insults. He went out to hurt Lances detractors when he said that they should understand that they had all benefited from him even if they didn't like him.

I know, and in my opinion he got close to LA, doping be damned, because he wanted to be cool and a rock star. He had probably gone over to the dark side already, so why would he care about JV's horror stories?

I mean, he tried to get close to someone who should be Satan in Garmin circles, and then he attacked those who attacked LA. He became a lackey. Perhaps he was tempted by the glamour of the bad guys or something, I don't know.

But my point was that Wigans didn't get close to Lance with naivety and innocence. It's different from being in the position where you're conflicted because you want to defend a childhood friend who ends up committing a crime.

 

[D-Queued]

Good to see the debate over which slimy cheater is the worst is still raging full force.

Kind of like Lance taking over right after Festina, and pushing everything to a new level.

The worst cheater is the one that continues doing what they shouldn't be doing when the sport itself is in dire straights because of it.

You cannot plead ignorance of the implications of doping in the aftermath of Festina or of the Reasoned Decision.

Dave.

 

[gooner]

I know, and in my opinion he got close to LA, doping be damned, because he wanted to be cool and a rock star. He had probably gone over to the dark side already, so why would he care about JV's horror stories?

By that logic, he wouldn't have cared about Contador's participation in the 2011 Tour because you say he was probably juiced himself. But that's exactly what he did in a press conference after his Dauphine win where he questioned whether he should have been allowed to race.

But my point was that Wigans didn't get close to Lance with naivety and innocence. It's different from being in the position where you're conflicted because you want to defend a childhood friend who ends up committing a crime.

He admitted he was scared of Lance's influence at the time.

“I didn't know, of course, that eight or nine months down the line I was going to go toe-to-toe with him for a place on the podium in the Tour de France. With hindsight, I'm glad I never criticised him. I had to go and race with the guy and everyone around him. I know what Lance is like if you make an enemy of him. We've seen it in the past. He could have made my life very difficult.”

No different to the likes of David Millar and Nicholas Roche where they changed their opinions on the aftermath.

 

[hrotha]

By that logic, he wouldn't have cared about Contador's participation in the 2011 Tour because you say he was probably juiced himself. But that's exactly what he did in a press conference after his Dauphine win where he questioned whether he should have been allowed to race.

I mentioned other factors, I didn't say Wigans was automatically attracted to all dopers ever. Lance had glamour.

He admitted he was scared of Lance's influence at the time.

He claimed that was the reason. Again, it hardly explains the active defense as opposed to the silence the majority embraced.

No different to the likes of David Millar and Nicholas Roche where they changed their opinions on the aftermath.

No different to Millar, who you'll find many people here don't trust at all.
Roche however, as far as we know, hadn't heard the whole story from eye witnesses.

You're failing to take into account two key factors that have been brought up time and time again, including a couple of posts above: 1) it's not defend LA vs speak out against LA, there's also the option of staying silent, and 2) Wiggins knew the whole story even before Landis sent his email.

 

[BroDeal]

By that logic, he wouldn't have cared about Contador's participation in the 2011 Tour because you say he was probably juiced himself. But that's exactly what he did in a press conference after his Dauphine win where he questioned whether he should have been allowed to race.

He admitted he was scared of Lance's influence at the time.

No different to the likes of David Millar and Nicholas Roche where they changed their opinions on the aftermath.

Wow. You guys will cling to any excuse.

 

[The Hitch]

He admitted he was scared of Lance's influence at the time.

No different to the likes of David Millar and Nicholas Roche where they changed their opinions on the aftermath.

To quote Mcenroe, You cannot be serious.

The above is no different to saying something like " I think Contador won all his Tours clean because he says he has never touched drugs".

Since when are pro cyclists taken at their word on clinic matters.

I mean that quote you give is an absolute joke. Unless there is more to it, then it proves to me he is lying because nowhere is he even taking responsibility for what he did, but goes out of his way to make it sound like all he did was not criticise Lance.

“I didn't know, of course, that eight or nine months down the line I was going to go toe-to-toe with him for a place on the podium in the Tour de France. With hindsight, I'm glad I never criticised him. I had to go and race with the guy and everyone around him. I know what Lance is like if you make an enemy of him. We've seen it in the past. He could have made my life very difficult.”

No Brad, the issue isnt that you "didn't criticise Lance" the issue is that you defneded lance, praised lance, registered yourself as the chief fanboy of Lance and attacked people who were telling the truth.

And not " eight months before I was going to go toe to toe with him for a place on the podium in the Tour de France". 3 whole ****ing years, all the way up to August 2012.

In fact, isn't the above quote you give the exact same quote that caused even JV to come out on twitter in outrage?

It is an outrageous comment. I never read it in full before, but seeing it now, any doubts that may have crept in from months of inactivity on the wiggins thread, that wiggins doped and is absolute scum have been truly been demolished.

An honest person making an apology, does not pretend they never did the crime in the first place. Thats like rule 1 of life.

We have Wiggins on record, sinning, and yet his mea culpa is to sit there and pretend that his only crime was not speaking out.

"Betsy, I never called you fat". Brad learned from the best.