"When you have class, you cannot lose" - Vinokourov

[brunoncyryl]

Hi.
I come from Middle class family.. I believe in inner strength.you people are wasting your time to making mussels strong. I want to make my brain strong..My class cannot be identified.

 

[Hugh Januss]

vino is a kazak **** wit

Armstrong is a texas ****wit. What's the difference really? Same oil money, different PR machine, better story line.

 

[craig1985]

Eddie B's entrance into US cycling started a new era, at least for awareness of cycling's involvement. I suspect that track and field preceded cycling but wasn't involved enough to know. Didn't the Austrailian athletic rise commence about the same time with Eastern European coaches' relocating to that country? Was there any single event that would lead Aussies to suspect things had changed?

After a shocking 1976 Munich Olympics, the Australian Insitute of Sport was founded.

 

[Mellow Velo]

vino is a kazak **** wit

So, that would make you a racist ****wit, then.

 

[Galic Ho]

Eddie B's entrance into US cycling started a new era, at least for awareness of cycling's involvement. I suspect that track and field preceded cycling but wasn't involved enough to know. Didn't the Austrailian athletic rise commence about the same time with Eastern European coaches' relocating to that country? Was there any single event that would lead Aussies to suspect things had changed?

Nice try. Aussie athletics is only now being revived. Pre 1970's we were one of the worlds powerhouses. Back when people of caucasian descent could still win Olympic Gold in sprints and middle distance events. Now the events are dominated by athletes of African descent. Aussie women between 1930 and 1960 were arguably the best in the world at track and field...but not since the late 1960s have aussies been 'great'.

Perhaps in your eyes they have risen, but they haven't matched the rest of the world and the gains the top elite have made. Pole vaulting coaches from and gymnastics coaches from Russia and diving coaches from China do not count.

 

[Greg Johnson]

Comments below address points a few raise, just using Alpe d'Huez's comments to respond to as he mentions a few different aspects in his one post.

I believe you will be compelled to admit that over the last 20 years doping has at times been so widespread that it existed in nearly the entire peloton, perhaps at times even down to an amateur level, pushing many riders to dope only to continue in the sport at all, or they wouldn't even be able to finish some races within the time cut off and quickly be out of work. As Alex Zulle stated in his infamous analogy, if the sign on the freeway says 100kph, and everyone else is driving 130kph, what do you do? This doesn't excuse doping, I'm not trying to do that, but merely state at times it's almost safe to assume that over 98% of professional riders were doping to one degree or another.

Yup, I agree. But I was referring only to the context in which Vino was done - which is in 2007. The differences between the sport's attitude towards the problem differed hugely over the last 20 years, and my thoughts/beliefs on the topic evolve with that.

Confessing is to me a huge break that a doper can make towards salvation, and forgiveness. It's the only way they can make amends, and right whatever wrong they did. What you're saying is a de facto death sentence. At least as far as respect, or class goes.

Ahh, in my mind it depends. If someone's riding for a team with widespread doping and says 'this is nuts, I can't carry on' and outs the practice - fantastic. I'd think very highly of that person for essentially having the balls to be a whistle blower.

I don't however feel the same about people who are caught out, backed into a corner, then say 'okay, I did it'. It's like getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar, then admitting, you stole the cookies. These people probably have class in relative terms to those who continue to deny allegations no matter how much proof to the contrary stacks up, but they don't in a broader spectrum have class in my eyes. The clean guy has class, the whistle blower sits in the middle, post-caught confessor at the bottom and the moron that keep living in his dream world doesn't make the chart, IMO.

Again, I'm talking about a modern context - past few years. I don't have a blanket opinion, it works off sliding scales

Cheers
Greg Johnson

 

[Anonymous]

Ahh, in my mind it depends. If someone's riding for a team with widespread doping and says 'this is nuts, I can't carry on' and outs the practice - fantastic. I'd think very highly of that person for essentially having the balls to be a whistle blower.

being thought of highly wont pay the bills though, or raise their kids...

(just offering an argument in return)

damn, wouldnt it be fun to have a debating section where we pick topics and people are nominated to put the for and against arguments and defend them regardless of what they actually think.. (theres a few people around here i would love to put in the pro lance, or anti vino camp for a thread)

 

[ak-zaaf]

being thought of highly wont pay the bills though, or raise their kids...

(just offering an argument in return)

damn, wouldnt it be fun to have a debating section where we pick topics and people are nominated to put the for and against arguments and defend them regardless of what they actually think.. (theres a few people around here i would love to put in the pro lance, or anti vino camp for a thread)

Hehehe, the cyclingnews.com forum debate class.
You do the pro on 'Lance is the greatest cyclist of all-time' debate.

 

[workingclasshero]

Hi.
I come from Middle class family.. I believe in inner strength.you people are wasting your time to making mussels strong. I want to make my brain strong..My class cannot be identified.

So, that would make you a racist ****wit, then.

how does that make him racist? vino is kazakh that's a fact and not something he is ashamed to be called of that i'm sure.

not so certain he is as keen on the f.ckwit part though

 

[craig1985]

Hehehe, the cyclingnews.com forum debate class.
You do the pro on 'Lance is the greatest cyclist of all-time' debate.

Bro deal and TFF in the 'Lance won his Tours clean' camp. Dimspace in the 'Contador is awesome' camp. Big boat has to argue that it is possible to finish in a GT top 10 clean.

Would be a great way to keep us entertained before the Lance Circus hits Adelaide.

 

[Anonymous]

Bro deal and TFF in the 'Lance won his Tours clean' camp. Dimspace in the 'Contador is awesome' camp. Big boat has to argue that it is possible to finish in a GT top 10 clean.

Would be a great way to keep us entertained before the Lance Circus hits Adelaide.

i think its a great idea.. lets face it we do have some very articulate, intelligent people here (although i hate to admit it).. would be interesting to see if those who come up with the lance doped evidence and compelling arguments when pushed have the vocabulary, and intelligence to argue the other way...

would make good reading if nothing else..

 

[Mellow Velo]

how does that make him racist? vino is kazakh that's a fact and not something he is ashamed to be called of that i'm sure.

not so certain he is as keen on the f.ckwit part though

Cos a ****wit is a ****wit and nationality plays no part, other than to infer a stereotype.

 

[Mellow Velo]

i think its a great idea.. lets face it we do have some very articulate, intelligent people here (although i hate to admit it).. would be interesting to see if those who come up with the lance doped evidence and compelling arguments when pushed have the vocabulary, and intelligence to argue the other way...

would make good reading if nothing else..

I think it's a great idea.
Should silence the board for weeks, while our eggheads scratch around for their totally illusive, "Eureka!" explanation.

 

[rhubroma]

"Class" has a different meaning in cycling than in the common vernacular.

In cycling, class roughly equals "talent of the highest level".

I would have gone for something more ironic, like: "Class is a term from the ancien regime and has to do with natural pedigree."

 

[ggusta]

Armstrong is a texas ****wit. What's the difference really? Same oil money, different PR machine, better story line.

If you are implying that he (LA) comes from money, oil or otherwise, I am pretty sure you are mistaken. I don't know exactly what comforts he was surrounded by growing up, although the PR line is 'poor' or 'lower middle class'. I think the truth on that was a casualty a long time ago. My guess would be middle class single mother household.

What that means is subject to wide interpretation. I don't think it really means much. I think he would have been a jerk regardless of his background.

 

[tubularglue]

vino / ego - class'

In the well adjusted person the ego is the executive of the personality and is governed by the reality principle.

 

[Oldman]

Nice try. Aussie athletics is only now being revived. Pre 1970's we were one of the worlds powerhouses. Back when people of caucasian descent could still win Olympic Gold in sprints and middle distance events. Now the events are dominated by athletes of African descent. Aussie women between 1930 and 1960 were arguably the best in the world at track and field...but not since the late 1960s have aussies been 'great'.

Perhaps in your eyes they have risen, but they haven't matched the rest of the world and the gains the top elite have made. Pole vaulting coaches from and gymnastics coaches from Russia and diving coaches from China do not count.

Thanks for the response since this is off-topic. I don't know much about Aussie sports history but did wonder if there was a time that cycling fans began to question the legitmacy of results. For the US it was the LA Olympics and the disclosure of blood doping, then legal; as the means to an end. Disclosures by Alexi Grewal and others suggest it was just part of a larger problem.

 

[Hugh Januss]

If you are implying that he (LA) comes from money, oil or otherwise, I am pretty sure you are mistaken. I don't know exactly what comforts he was surrounded by growing up, although the PR line is 'poor' or 'lower middle class'. I think the truth on that was a casualty a long time ago. My guess would be middle class single mother household.

What that means is subject to wide interpretation. I don't think it really means much. I think he would have been a jerk regardless of his background.

No I didn't mean LA personally but more the possibility of who his first backers might have been. Texas pride and all that.

 

[Anonymous]

Armstrong is a texas ****wit. What's the difference really? Same oil money, different PR machine, better story line.

thats true huge azz but ...then again I am not a facepipe like you

 

[Anonymous]

So, that would make you a racist ****wit, then.

what ever mellow yellow.

 

[Hugh Januss]

thats true huge azz but ...then again I am not a facepipe like you

So you and ChrisE are some kind of an item, right?

 

[scribe]

vino / ego - class'

In the well adjusted person the ego is the executive of the personality and is governed by the reality principle.

Whoa. I must have missed the bus for that day's Latin philosophy astronomy class.

 

[Anonymous]

So you and ChrisE are some kind of an item, right?

No not really. I just like to read the threads and see the Consistent theme.

More like you and TFF are a item.................

 

[Hugh Januss]

No not really. I just like to read the threads and see the Consistent theme.

More like you and TFF are a item.................

Oh! <reels back> struck down by the old "no but you are..." comeback.
Good one, seaman guzzler!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Whoa. I must have missed the bus for that day's Latin philosophy astronomy class.

No, no - its pretty easy to see...
The old man with the stick is Vino - and he is above the desolate town which is Astana, while the tree symbolizes life and growth. The sun is the UCI - and as you can see Pat doesn't look too happy, as Vino - who is broken in two - reaches out but cannot catch the stars that have ascended above him...

Either that or its a dirty old man trying to grab someones underwear off a laundry line...