Who deserves the Vélo d'Or the most so far?

[MichalJ]

https://youtu.be/ZeXEPOKKFps?t=41m6s

At 41:10 you can clearly see Sagan in the second group with dutch riders. At 42:00 you can see Sagan sprinting to the first group. Does that count as wheelsucking too?

 

[tomorrow]

Re:

https://youtu.be/ZeXEPOKKFps?t=41m6s

At 41:10 you can clearly see Sagan in the second group with dutch riders. At 42:00 you can see Sagan sprinting to the first group and leaving the dutch behind. Does that count as wheelsucking too?

fixed that for you

and yes, I am aware the besides groenewegen, the dutch made it to the 1st group eventually. So i sagan was wheelsucking, he would go with them, not attack them.

 

[KGB]

Re: Re:

Yes he did and that is the way he should do every race he enters then he will win even more races.

What is so great about winning while wheelsucking? Is that legend in the making? Poor cycling, then.

It's not just yesterday, though. Two stages in the Low Countries, wheelsucking. Quebec, wheelsucking. Plumelec wheelsucking. And you'd compare him with all-time greats ?? This doesn't make the greatest of this era, so how could be an all-time great.

Well this is right question for GVA.He is definitelly better in this competition which you call wheelsucking and I call it ''smart tactics'' which are used even with riders like Valverde,Cancellara,Kwiatkowski etc.They use their energy in right moment.Sagan finally did first step in this way end of last season.

 

[yaco]

You know you must stop posting on cycling forums when you decry Sagan's win for wheel-sucking - To make this post you've lost all sense of objectivity.

 

[Echoes]

Sagan has won by wheelsucking throughout his career for the simple reason that he's partly been a top sprinter and that in modern days pure sprinters are of necessity wheelsuckers.

It could happen that some of Greg victories are due to wheelsucking (Rodez, Tirreno 2015 in mind) but there are also flying fish which are not the majority of the species. Saying Greg's win are due to wheelsucking is cherry-picking.

 

[Netserk]

I'm quite sure that if you counted, Sagan would have a bigger number of not-wheelsucking-wins than Greg.

This year it's 4 vs 3 in Sagan's favor.

 

[Squire]

Let's just give the Velo d'Or to Thomas De Gendt, shall we? Or maybe Tony Martin. Luckily not a lot of "wheel-sucking" involved in his wins.

 

[KGB]

Sagan has won by wheelsucking throughout his career for the simple reason that he's partly been a top sprinter and that in modern days pure sprinters are of necessity wheelsuckers.

It could happen that some of Greg victories are due to wheelsucking (Rodez, Tirreno 2015 in mind) but there are also flying fish which are not the majority of the species. Saying Greg's win are due to wheelsucking is cherry-picking.

Oooooooooooooooh you mean in last 800m?Of course then Sagan needs lead out man so he is always on someone wheel.In this case you are 100% right but that's sprints.Sagan is not faster sprinters categorie like Cav.Gaviria,Greipel etc.Even Kolar is better sprinter then Sagan on some distance)).

 

[Bardamu]

No reason to change my mind. A victory after a whole day of wheelsucking is no victory whatever the name of the race is and whatever jersey you might wear afterwards.

Was quite stupid to have seen the race actually while I swore to myself I would boycott. Probably a bit deceived by the Belgian offensive but a bit naive, it was just unlikely to prevail ...

Let's demand that Boonen will hand in his rainbow jersey as well in that case.

 

[saganftw]

even if sagan didnt win the WC,cav would win by wheelsucking,boonen would win by wheelsucking,matthews would win by wheelsucking

so basically everybody in top 5 was riding disgracefully and should not wear the jersey,just pack it up boys,this years WC dont count and from next season the winner will be picked based on style points

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah, let's just disregard this WC and pretend last years winner is still world champion.

 

[saganboss]

Re:

Yeah, let's just disregard this WC and pretend last years winner is still world champion.

,,Epic fail to all those who claimed an attacker won. They surely don't know what a real cycling breakaway is'', ECHOES: richmond 2015, after sagan won solo, I didn't bother to search for 2014 but i think kwiatkowski wheelsucked big time in echoes opinion

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re:

Yeah, let's just disregard this WC and pretend last years winner is still world champion.

Why do you hate Tony Martin?

 

[Mr.White]

Sagan has won by wheelsucking throughout his career for the simple reason that he's partly been a top sprinter and that in modern days pure sprinters are of necessity wheelsuckers.

It could happen that some of Greg victories are due to wheelsucking (Rodez, Tirreno 2015 in mind) but there are also flying fish which are not the majority of the species. Saying Greg's win are due to wheelsucking is cherry-picking.

Yes he had a couple of wins due to wheelsucking (I don't like this expression at all, by the way!). But on the other hand, he had so few wins that his wheelsucking ones makes way more than a half

 

[Echoes]

It's getting pretty boring. If you think my comments don't make sense, why do you keep on proving my point?

In 2005 I was already frequenting forums and clearly said that Boonen's victory at the Worlds had no value while his wins at the Tour of Flanders and in Paris-Roubaix were splendid. What is your problem?

The race was not worthy of being labelled "World Championship"? Does that surprise you? Have you ever had a look at its profile? Or shouldn't we rather assume that it's not because a race has a bombastic name like "World Championship" that it is of necessity the greatest single-day race of the season. You would compare this race to Liège-Bastogne-Liège and then tell me I know nothing at cycling, but seriously ?? Valkenburg, Hamilton, Mendrisio or Florence, those routes were comparable to Liège-Bastogne-Liège. Zolder, Geelong, Madrid, Copenhagen or Richmond along with Doha may at best be compared to Paris-Tours in its traditional route. All "World Championships" are not comparable. It depends on the route.

 

[Gigs_98]

It's getting pretty boring. If you think my comments don't make sense, why do you keep on proving my point?

In 2005 I was already frequenting forums and clearly said that Boonen's victory at the Worlds had no value while his wins at the Tour of Flanders and in Paris-Roubaix were splendid. What is your problem?

The race was not worthy of being labelled "World Championship"? Does that surprise you? Have you ever had a look at its profile? Or shouldn't we rather assume that it's not because a race has a bombastic name like "World Championship" that it is of necessity the greatest single-day race of the season. You would compare this race to Liège-Bastogne-Liège and then tell me I know nothing at cycling, but seriously ?? Valkenburg, Hamilton, Mendrisio or Florence, those routes were comparable to Liège-Bastogne-Liège. Zolder, Geelong, Madrid, Copenhagen or Richmond along with Doha may at best be compared to Paris-Tours in its traditional route. All "World Championships" are not comparable. It depends on the route.

But in my opinion the entertainment value doesn't have anything to do with the importance of a race. One could argue that Cav's WC win was worth a little bit less because really nothing happened besides the sprint, but the value of the WC this year is as high as last year, which was as high as Ponferrada. Only because for you there were no real World Championships this year, that doesn't mean the race was unimportant for everyone.

The thing is that for you every race, decided in a classical bunch sprint, isn't worth anything because sprinters suck wheels all day long. For you Cav's palmares is about as good as the palmares of Thomas Rohregger, okay, your opinion, but for the vast majority thats not the case and Cav is one of the most successful riders of the last decade, because for the vast majority bunch sprints are a huge part of cycling today and the best sprinter is therefore also a good rider.

 

[Brullnux]

I agree that some World Championships are worth more than others. There's a reason we talk about 1995 Duitana, 2013 Firenze and Mendrisio 2009 (only examples) and not 2002.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

I agree that some World Championships are worth more than others. There's a reason we talk about 1995 Duitana, 2013 Firenze and Mendrisio 2009 (only examples) and not 2002.

There are certainly small differences, but Doha and Richmond weren't like Copenhagen. These races were still relatively interesting, there were things you can discuss about and there were memorable moments. The point is that these WC's don't have the super low value, which Echoes claims they have.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

I agree that some World Championships are worth more than others. There's a reason we talk about 1995 Duitana, 2013 Firenze and Mendrisio 2009 (only examples) and not 2002.

To a degree, yes. You are absolutely right, I view those differently to the more boring editions as well. But thats not what is being argued from Echoes who thinks a Worlds won by following wheels and being the fastest on the day is of no value whatsoever.

Cause thats obviously not true. At the end of the day, a World Championship is a World Championship. And Sagan has 2, regardless of how he won the second. I think thats all he cares about.

 

[El Pistolero]

Blame the route, not the riders. There was simply no incentive to attack here once they reached the local laps. Sagan would have been an idiot to attack in the finale instead of counting on his sprint. What's Greg's excuse of not attacking or helping Boonen in the sprint btw?

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

I agree that some World Championships are worth more than others. There's a reason we talk about 1995 Duitana, 2013 Firenze and Mendrisio 2009 (only examples) and not 2002.

There are certainly small differences, but Doha and Richmond weren't like Copenhagen. These races were still relatively interesting, there were things you can discuss about and there were memorable moments. The point is that these WC's don't have the super low value, which Echoes claims they have.

Both however were of fairly low interest. Richmond was a poor route and a poor race, and Doha was an abysmal route with a pretty boring race a0art from 20km in the desert. I think Kwiatowski's Ponferrada win is worth more than either of Sagan's wins. Of course the two together are worth a lot more, especially back to back.

But I rate Bettini's achivements and WC wins above Sagan's for now

 

[Red Rick]

Valueing races depending on how exciting they are totally take away the purpose of any status any race might have. I sure as hell won't be saying Froome's TdF victories are worth any less because of boring races or whatever. Race status and spectacle and excitement are two totally seperate things

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Valueing races depending on how exciting they are totally take away the purpose of any status any race might have. I sure as hell won't be saying Froome's TdF victories are worth any less because of boring races or whatever. Race status and spectacle and excitement are two totally seperate things

I'm not ranking them on excitement. The WC changes completely every year and some are worth more than others, flat ones the least and hilly ones more. The status in the mind of many of the riders amd fans changes - not that many people seemed to really care this year, compared to previous ones. A proper WC route is worth much more than this year's farce

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Valueing races depending on how exciting they are totally take away the purpose of any status any race might have. I sure as hell won't be saying Froome's TdF victories are worth any less because of boring races or whatever. Race status and spectacle and excitement are two totally seperate things

I'm not ranking them on excitement. The WC changes completely every year and some are worth more than others, flat ones the least and hilly ones more. The status in the mind of many of the riders amd fans changes - not that many people seemed to really care this year, compared to previous ones. A proper WC route is worth much more than this year's farce

I think that's even more ridiculous than I thought.

2016 had a split at 180km, then nothing happened and it was raced for 2km
2015 had nothing happening until the last 3km
2014 had nothing happening until the last 8km
2013 had nothing happening until the last 10km
2012 had nothing happening until the last 3km
2011 had nothing happening until the last 500m

2010 was the last one where the winning move was even remotely challenged beforehand.

The last 2 WC were awful, but they were still WC and should count just as much as the others. It's not like Philipe Gilbert did so much for his win in 2012.

 

[Brullnux]

I'm talking about the route. For me this is the case. You may disagree, but it's not changing my view on it.