Who do you think is clean?

[Roninho]

Linus Gerdeman
Nikki Terpstra
Greg VanAvermaet

Any explanaiton why? Not specific to your post, but i see a lot of posters name a few guys without any reasons why they specifically think these guys are not doping. I would be interested to know why you guys think they do not dope.

For me, i'm convinced that there are riders that are clean/dopefree. But the only one i'd be willing to bet $100 on is Davide Moncoutie. If he didn't dope when everyone was doing it while he was young then i don't think he will have done it later in his career.

All others: i just don't know. I allways thought that maybe some did it, but when you see all the stars & domestiques getting busted in the last decade then well, reality is different.

 

[maltiv]

Im not 100% sure on anyone, but Id like to hope that the younger talents and future stars, the likes of Porte, Roche, Thomas, Kennaugh, Boasson Hagen, Sagan are doing it clean.

If they arent our sport really is screwed.

I wouldn't put too much faith in Porte and Sagan. Both of them have, amazingly, somehow started winning more after they turned pro than they did in the amateur levels.

I remember a recent interview with Porte where he explained his Giro d'italia success. Apparently Bjarne Riis had told him that he was "too fat" prior to the race, and then Porte magically lost 4 kg in a few weeks, and turned up in the form of his life...I think Bike Pure is pretty embarrassed to have him on their roaster because they know what he's up to, notice that they seem a lot more excited about the results of for example Cam Meyer.

I find it a lot easier to believe in someone who has had a more natural progression, like EBH and G Thomas. It's just not natural to go from a decently talented amateur to a top professional in a few months.

 

[Digger]

I hope there are some clean ones in those teams. On a hunch, I'd say the teams with few victories are clean. JV's avoidance, obfuscation, silence and history don't bode well for a clean team, however.
At the end of the day, it's the choice of the individual to dope or not.
Maybe it's better that I don't know who is and who isn't.

In relation to JV and Slipstream - one of the most suspect performances, outside of Wiggins' one in 2009 mountains, was the TTT in the same year. They rode for most of the stage with five riders and came second only to Astana - only lost 18 seconds and even beat Saxo by 22 seconds, who finished with seven riders.

Anyway clean riders - I would trust the riders who are consistently solid throughout the year, before i would trust a guy who comes out of nowhere in June / July. Cunego I believe is NOW clean - before no. Linus possibly. David Millar I would imagine yes, one of the reasons being that his results are nowhere near what they were prior to his suspension. Mike Rogers now maybe, before definitely not. There has been a serious drop in his performances. But in general I wouldn't really trust many - few and far between. Even Boonen has alluded to this.

Note: Because of Sassi I would like to believe in Basso. HIs performances are again not even close to 2006 levels - other side of the coin, can you win a GT tour in this day and age.

 

[Benotti69]

I hope there are some clean ones in those teams. On a hunch, I'd say the teams with few victories are clean. JV's avoidance, obfuscation, silence and history don't bode well for a clean team, however.
At the end of the day, it's the choice of the individual to dope or not.
Maybe it's better that I don't know who is and who isn't.

Kimmage was content with JV and slipstream, but he admitted to being wrong before.

i'd rather know who is and cheer for them even if it means them coming in 120th.

 

[TexPat]

Kimmage was content with JV and slipstream, but he admitted to being wrong before.

i'd rather know who is and cheer for them even if it means them coming in 120th.

Absolutely.

 

[Granville57]

Chris Horner, and before anyone starts laughing I'll tell you why...

Nice post. Thanks for that background.

The thing that gets me with Chris though, is the Pharmstrong assoc. He had a great season last year. Granted, he was finally able to get out from under some of the injuries that had plagued in the previous two seasons, but it's hard not to be skeptical of a guy who, very late in his career, suddenly attributes his success to "training with Lance" and getting more serious about his diet. He specifically mentioned cutting back on the junk food.

Sammy Sosa comes to mind when I hear things like that.

I hope he is clean. I like to watch him ride and I was cheering for him at the Vuelta al País Vasco.

But somehow, I don't understand how a pro athlete, who's very livelihood depends upon results, waits until the very end of his pro career to get his eating habits under control. With all the suffering that a pro rider goes through, I would think that leaving the cookies in the jar would be the easy sacrifice to make. But who knows?

I'll support him until I don't.

 

[Digger]

Kimmage was content with JV and slipstream, but he admitted to being wrong before.

i'd rather know who is and cheer for them even if it means them coming in 120th.

I honestly think if Paul was to write an article on JV / Slipstream in the morning, it would be far from positive.

 

[online-rider]

I did. That was the point of my second post.

Damn I'm too late as usual

It doesn't sound like the words of a doper, but we must also recognise that not seeming like a doper is not enough to say that someone isn't one.

And vice versa, the dopers who are most villified and witch-hunted by the media are not necessarily the most debauched dopers.

[/IMG]
They're simply talented riders.

 

[maltiv]

But somehow, I don't understand how a pro athlete, who's very livelihood depends upon results, waits until the very end of his pro career to get his eating habits under control. With all the suffering that a pro rider goes through, I would think that leaving the cookies in the jar would be the easy sacrifice to make. But who knows?

To me that looks like a silly attempt at making an excuse for suddenly improving massively.

 

[Benotti69]

Damn I'm too late as usual

And vice versa, the dopers who are most villified and witch-hunted by the media are not necessarily the most debauched dopers.

[/IMG]
They're simply talented riders.

Virenque came second in a poll in France during the year of his lies as the second most reviled person to French youngsters. He was beaten by Osama Bin Laden

 

[mombus]

Not a chance.

Why must Jens Voigt dope? He has talked about his feelings on doping many times, and he seems like an incredibly honest guy... funny, kind, 6 kids, a long time wife... why would he lie to the world? I think he really takes pride in his pure talent. He's been riding since he was 8.

 

[Anonymous]

Chris Horner, and before anyone starts laughing I'll tell you why. He was amazing as a young rider. Just like Lemond was. I don't think Horner has told his life story but I live in Socal and my team was sponsored by a local bikeshop. Horner used to work there and i found out he used to sleep there because he didnt have the money for a place to live. When people found out he got a sponsored ride at like 500 hundred a month and he was happy as a clam. I would go to races and here is this kid in a ponytail taking flyers off the front and stealing races from the pro's. I go to this one race, LA sheriff's are there and a few other Pro teams, I talked to the manager and he said the guy they had to worry about was horner. period. I thought that was kind of funny. During the race Chris was up to his usual antics, animating the field, starting breaks, staying off solo for laps at a time. He was in a two man break that got swallowed up with less than 5 laps to go(criterium) and it was sad because you wanted to see him do well. Well the Pro's got their leadout trains in order and it was gonna be a battle between Subaru Montgormery i think and LA Sheriff's who had a long line of riders pulling qround Malcom Elliot. Then from the corner before the final straight i hear the crowd go nuts, here comes Horner flying off the front, spoiling the leadouts. Sheriffs chased hard for two laps used up most of their train trying to bring him back, which they managed to do on the last lap and Elliot took the sprint easy, but Horner still was able to sprint after all that and hang on for a top 5 finish. This was against guys like Steve Hegg, Jeff Pierce, Bobby Julich who had to go all out to chase him down. I know he wasn't on drugs then he could barely afford food. He has raced the same way his whole life, I would say from personal experience he was the greatest natural talent from the US since Lemond. If he did switch to the other side it would be too bad because he sure didnt improve too much he was already friggin amazing.
Oh yeah after the race i talked some to the LA Sheriff's most of the team were kind of ticked off at Horner and the manager was ticked off at them.
The riders didn;t have much respect for the lil punk in the ponytail, but the manager was impressed."We knew exactly what he was gonna do, he did it and almost got away with it, i wish he was on our team"
He said that right in front of his own riders. TDF riders, some of the best Pro's of the time. I tell u what tho in hindsight the only rider really giving props to Horner was Elliott. Class act Malcolm.

I remember him lapping the field at the Athens Twilight sometime in the early 90's. That ponytail flying out the back. He won that day. One of the most impressive criterium rides I ever saw. Wouldn't doubt he was clean...now, I just don't know.

 

[online-rider]

Virenque came second in a poll in France during the year of his lies as the second most reviled person to French youngsters. He was beaten by Osama Bin Laden

Lol are you serious?
Those frenchies are deluded (on that score). Virneque was a big talent. His downfall was in being too media friendly. They found their victim and pounded him. But I think everyone realises his stripes were the same colour as everyone elses.

[/IMG]

 

[Anonymous]

Why must Jens Voigt dope? He has talked about his feelings on doping many times, and he seems like an incredibly honest guy... funny, kind, 6 kids, a long time wife... why would he lie to the world? I think he really takes pride in his pure talent. He's been riding since he was 8.

You base your assumption on the false premise that only evil (bad) people dope. I love to watch Voigt ride...do I think he has hooked up to a blood bag during the tour? I would have to say that I think that is highly likely.

 

[mombus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsNHe98tHmA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG3YibQdkkA&feature=more_related

I don't think it's right to accuse this guy when he's never tested for a picogram of anything but GERMAN BIKE RIDER

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And vice versa, the dopers who are most villified and witch-hunted by the media are not necessarily the most debauched dopers.

Oh, very true. But that's not just the media, that's the fans as well. People who are enormously talented and dopers split the crowd. Look at the reactions to Riccardo Riccò and Alejandro Valverde - two people who have been and indeed are great talents without the dope. All the while many of the people who scream blue murder about Valverde's and Basso's Fuentes links think nothing of Fränk Schleck being out there. Shady teams and associations are swept under the carpet or ignored entirely as appropriate - Cadel Evans has been on a succession of dubious teams but many perceive him as clean, while Ángel Vicioso has been on a succession of dubious teams and is perceived as dirty.

There's also the exposure factor; Thomas Frei's or Emanuele Sella's admissions and accusations have nothing like the effect of Floyd Landis' ones, and similarly people would cry and moan about Valverde still being riding, yet ignore that down in Portugal João Cabreira was doing the exact same thing. Why? Cabreira's off the radar, Valverde's in your face.

It gets to the point where a decision is handed down like in the Pellizotti case and you simply have no idea how to react, because you can't say with any degree of certainty whether Pellizotti's been caught in the act.

But there is a certain degree of us choosing our favourites and even if they are caught we will either disown them or rationalise it. Mikel Astarloza still claims innocence for his EPO positive, saying "why would I be so stupid as to use first generation EPO?" Xavier Tondó was on LA-MSS in 2008, claims not to have been wittingly involved in the shenanigans. I feel inclined to believe them, but I have no reasons for doing that other than that they seem like intelligent enough guys and I like them. I like Valverde too, but I don't believe his protestations of innocence, just don't like the hypocrisy of the way he's been treated even if he deserved the ban.

People like Sinkewitz, Cunego and Gerdemann are people I'd be tempted to wager are clean now, but I wouldn't put a penny on any of them having ALWAYS been clean (obviously not Sinkewitz since he's actually tested positive, but you get the idea). Fabian Wegmann likewise - that KOM jersey and Gerolsteiner association is enough to kill faith in someone.

I'm actually tempted to do that... take some of the notoriously dodgy squads of the last few years and see where all their riders are now, to look at the multiple standards to which riders are held when teams are busted... Gerolsteiner '08, Comunidad Valenciana '06, Saunier Duval '08, LPR Brakes '09, LA-MSS '08, Liberty Seguros '09... any further suggestions?

 

[AngusW]

Chris Horner, and before anyone starts laughing I'll tell you why. He was amazing as a young rider. Just like Lemond was. I don't think Horner has told his life story but I live in Socal and my team was sponsored by a local bikeshop. Horner used to work there and i found out he used to sleep there because he didnt have the money for a place to live. When people found out he got a sponsored ride at like 500 hundred a month and he was happy as a clam. I would go to races and here is this kid in a ponytail taking flyers off the front and stealing races from the pro's. I go to this one race, LA sheriff's are there and a few other Pro teams, I talked to the manager and he said the guy they had to worry about was horner. period. I thought that was kind of funny. During the race Chris was up to his usual antics, animating the field, starting breaks, staying off solo for laps at a time. He was in a two man break that got swallowed up with less than 5 laps to go(criterium) and it was sad because you wanted to see him do well. Well the Pro's got their leadout trains in order and it was gonna be a battle between Subaru Montgormery i think and LA Sheriff's who had a long line of riders pulling qround Malcom Elliot. Then from the corner before the final straight i hear the crowd go nuts, here comes Horner flying off the front, spoiling the leadouts. Sheriffs chased hard for two laps used up most of their train trying to bring him back, which they managed to do on the last lap and Elliot took the sprint easy, but Horner still was able to sprint after all that and hang on for a top 5 finish. This was against guys like Steve Hegg, Jeff Pierce, Bobby Julich who had to go all out to chase him down. I know he wasn't on drugs then he could barely afford food. He has raced the same way his whole life, I would say from personal experience he was the greatest natural talent from the US since Lemond. If he did switch to the other side it would be too bad because he sure didnt improve too much he was already friggin amazing.
Oh yeah after the race i talked some to the LA Sheriff's most of the team were kind of ticked off at Horner and the manager was ticked off at them.
The riders didn;t have much respect for the lil punk in the ponytail, but the manager was impressed."We knew exactly what he was gonna do, he did it and almost got away with it, i wish he was on our team"
He said that right in front of his own riders. TDF riders, some of the best Pro's of the time. I tell u what tho in hindsight the only rider really giving props to Horner was Elliott. Class act Malcolm.

Great post - thanks for sharing that.

 

[Escarabajo]

Why must Jens Voigt dope? He has talked about his feelings on doping many times, and he seems like an incredibly honest guy... funny, kind, 6 kids, a long time wife... why would he lie to the world? I think he really takes pride in his pure talent. He's been riding since he was 8.

who cares if he has been riding since he was 8 years old, if he is a nice guy and has many kids. That's not a reason for not to dope. Absolutely not.

Remember the story told by Jörg Jaksche. Although I don't see it as a solid proof it does not look good on Jens.

here is the story:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/jorg_jaksche_jul07

 

[mombus]

nooooooooo

 

[runninboy]

Nice post. Thanks for that background.

The thing that gets me with Chris though, is the Pharmstrong assoc. He had a great season last year. Granted, he was finally able to get out from under some of the injuries that had plagued in the previous two seasons, but it's hard not to be skeptical of a guy who, very late in his career, suddenly attributes his success to "training with Lance" and getting more serious about his diet. He specifically mentioned cutting back on the junk food.

Sammy Sosa comes to mind when I hear things like that.

I hope he is clean. I like to watch him ride and I was cheering for him at the Vuelta al País Vasco.

But somehow, I don't understand how a pro athlete, who's very livelihood depends upon results, waits until the very end of his pro career to get his eating habits under control. With all the suffering that a pro rider goes through, I would think that leaving the cookies in the jar would be the easy sacrifice to make. But who knows?

I'll support him until I don't.

I know exactly what you are saying and it makes me nervous. ALthough being roughly the same age i can see possible explanations. I don't know him personally but you can see he was a great natural talent and had a happy go lucky kind of attitude. He really enjoyed doing things differently. Like that pony tail down halfway down his back. So if everyone said don't eat cookies i could see him chowing down just to prove he could do it.
I would imagine his first time to Europe he mixed like vinegar & water. They tell him to do something and he is bound and determined to show he can do it his own way. Again this is just from my perspective, but from what i have witnessed he loves being an individual. Look at him giving the guy a lift on his bike during a race. Just him having fun.
Then all of a sudden reality sets in a little. Like at the Olympic trial road race where everyone just sat on his wheel and they let Jason McCartney go up the road. No one cared if they lost to Jason, they were just going to make sure they didn't lose to Chris. You could see him gradually taking himself more seriously when he realized the reality was him being who he was ticked off a heck of alot of riders. And eventually the writing was on the wall, whether he merely got dead serious in his prep, or had his training dialed in after years of experience, or god forbid got on a "programe" i don't know. I hope it was not the latter. If he only turned a corner with LA i would be much more suspicious, but he turned the corner quite a few years ago. Year after year he was usually the highest placed american at the worlds. Too bad he ticked off so many people that he didnt always get the ride.

One other thing. Chris really learned to ride smarter, if you watch him in a tour you can kind of predict when he is gonna go for a stage win. He will inexplicably lose time on a couple stages so he goes down in the standings then when he figures he is far enough back that no one will chase he goes for it. The quest for a tour win killed his GC aspirations so he usually finished quite far down. Working as a domestique in the mountains he couldnt do that he had to shepard Evans and Armstrong up the mountains and so you saw more of what he could do.
Still I think he will tell you he is not a GC rider he is a World Championship/Olympics kind of rider. But he has never had the team working for him so....

 

[Roninho]

Oh, very true. But that's not just the media, that's the fans as well. People who are enormously talented and dopers split the crowd. Look at the reactions to Riccardo Riccò and Alejandro Valverde - two people who have been and indeed are great talents without the dope. All the while many of the people who scream blue murder about Valverde's and Basso's Fuentes links think nothing of Fränk Schleck being out there. Shady teams and associations are swept under the carpet or ignored entirely as appropriate - Cadel Evans has been on a succession of dubious teams but many perceive him as clean, while Ángel Vicioso has been on a succession of dubious teams and is perceived as dirty.

There's also the exposure factor; Thomas Frei's or Emanuele Sella's admissions and accusations have nothing like the effect of Floyd Landis' ones, and similarly people would cry and moan about Valverde still being riding, yet ignore that down in Portugal João Cabreira was doing the exact same thing. Why? Cabreira's off the radar, Valverde's in your face.

It gets to the point where a decision is handed down like in the Pellizotti case and you simply have no idea how to react, because you can't say with any degree of certainty whether Pellizotti's been caught in the act.

But there is a certain degree of us choosing our favourites and even if they are caught we will either disown them or rationalise it. Mikel Astarloza still claims innocence for his EPO positive, saying "why would I be so stupid as to use first generation EPO?" Xavier Tondó was on LA-MSS in 2008, claims not to have been wittingly involved in the shenanigans. I feel inclined to believe them, but I have no reasons for doing that other than that they seem like intelligent enough guys and I like them. I like Valverde too, but I don't believe his protestations of innocence, just don't like the hypocrisy of the way he's been treated even if he deserved the ban.

People like Sinkewitz, Cunego and Gerdemann are people I'd be tempted to wager are clean now, but I wouldn't put a penny on any of them having ALWAYS been clean (obviously not Sinkewitz since he's actually tested positive, but you get the idea). Fabian Wegmann likewise - that KOM jersey and Gerolsteiner association is enough to kill faith in someone.

I'm actually tempted to do that... take some of the notoriously dodgy squads of the last few years and see where all their riders are now, to look at the multiple standards to which riders are held when teams are busted... Gerolsteiner '08, Comunidad Valenciana '06, Saunier Duval '08, LPR Brakes '09, LA-MSS '08, Liberty Seguros '09... any further suggestions?

Very, very good post.

 

[Roninho]

who cares if he has been riding since he was 8 years old, if he is a nice guy and has many kids. That's not a reason for not to dope. Absolutely not.

Exactly. As allready mentioned (in i think this thread, sorry can't keep up the score ), guys like Hamilton, Sella, Nozal etc. are very nice guys according to the people that have met them. They also doped.

 

[bobbins]

I think that Cav is clean. Came through a strong anti-doping academy, regularly tested by a system independent to cycling and has been pretty scathing about other riders (not to the press though).

There seems to be a trend amongst riders not to rock the boat and make statements about other riders, especially high profile ones in public. Certain individuals can make life pretty unpleasant for outspoken riders still so why add that hassle to an already tough job? It is easy for Brad Wiggins to criticise his team mate that tested positive during the Tour but how vocal has he been about the recent happenings? Has a go at Landis!!!

 

[auscyclefan94]

Oh, very true. But that's not just the media, that's the fans as well. People who are enormously talented and dopers split the crowd. Look at the reactions to Riccardo Riccò and Alejandro Valverde - two people who have been and indeed are great talents without the dope. All the while many of the people who scream blue murder about Valverde's and Basso's Fuentes links think nothing of Fränk Schleck being out there. Shady teams and associations are swept under the carpet or ignored entirely as appropriate - Cadel Evans has been on a succession of dubious teams but many perceive him as clean, while Ángel Vicioso has been on a succession of dubious teams and is perceived as dirty.

There's also the exposure factor; Thomas Frei's or Emanuele Sella's admissions and accusations have nothing like the effect of Floyd Landis' ones, and similarly people would cry and moan about Valverde still being riding, yet ignore that down in Portugal João Cabreira was doing the exact same thing. Why? Cabreira's off the radar, Valverde's in your face.

It gets to the point where a decision is handed down like in the Pellizotti case and you simply have no idea how to react, because you can't say with any degree of certainty whether Pellizotti's been caught in the act.

But there is a certain degree of us choosing our favourites and even if they are caught we will either disown them or rationalise it. Mikel Astarloza still claims innocence for his EPO positive, saying "why would I be so stupid as to use first generation EPO?" Xavier Tondó was on LA-MSS in 2008, claims not to have been wittingly involved in the shenanigans. I feel inclined to believe them, but I have no reasons for doing that other than that they seem like intelligent enough guys and I like them. I like Valverde too, but I don't believe his protestations of innocence, just don't like the hypocrisy of the way he's been treated even if he deserved the ban.

People like Sinkewitz, Cunego and Gerdemann are people I'd be tempted to wager are clean now, but I wouldn't put a penny on any of them having ALWAYS been clean (obviously not Sinkewitz since he's actually tested positive, but you get the idea). Fabian Wegmann likewise - that KOM jersey and Gerolsteiner association is enough to kill faith in someone.

I'm actually tempted to do that... take some of the notoriously dodgy squads of the last few years and see where all their riders are now, to look at the multiple standards to which riders are held when teams are busted... Gerolsteiner '08, Comunidad Valenciana '06, Saunier Duval '08, LPR Brakes '09, LA-MSS '08, Liberty Seguros '09... any further suggestions?

The fact that riders who are in the spotlight get scrutinised more is totally fair. Because they are winning big races that means that if they are caught then they deserve extra scrutiny.

PLease don't compare Evans and Valverde at this point in time as riders who deserve scrutiny over doping. valverde has been proven to be a doper and has been banned. Evans has not. Because a rider rides for a suspcious team does not mean that warrants that they are to be knwon as dopers as well.. Actual evidence is required. to convict someone of being a doper just on a team association basis is very unfair.

So please stop trying to compare Evans with Valverde or any of your other favourite spanish or portuguese riders.

 

[bicing]

The fact that riders who are in the spotlight get scrutinised more is totally fair. Because they are winning big races that means that if they are caught then they deserve extra scrutiny.

PLease don't compare Evans and Valverde at this point in time as riders who deserve scrutiny over doping. valverde has been proven to be a doper and has been banned. Evans has not. Because a rider rides for a suspcious team does not mean that warrants that they are to be knwon as dopers as well.. Actual evidence is required. to convict someone of being a doper just on a team association basis is very unfair.

So please stop trying to compare Evans with Valverde or any of your other favourite spanish or portuguese riders.

I believe Libertine Serguros was comparing Evens with Vicosio, Valverde with Ricco, and Valverde with Basso and Schleck. There was no mentioning of Evens as a doper.

It is possible to compare Evens with Spanish riders - riders on doping teams, with riders in doping nationalities. the assumption is equivalent.