Who has the best palmares: Valverde vs. Nibali

[gregrowlerson]

How do you define talent though. Id say thats mostly defined by peak performance rather tham consistency, and I would pick Nibalis peak any day

But if I am picking any day, I'd pick Valverde.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

The debate is a great example of how enthusiastics overrate niche aspects of the sport. On the bigger picture, Nibali has simply wayyy more relevant palmares than Vavlverde. Valverde could win the next 100 Fleche Wallone editions and it still wouldn't stack up against Nibalis Tour victory.
Vuelta is a general thing that gets massively overrated on here, I mean it's fun, I love it, but make no mistake it definitely has a lower standing than the other two GTs (it admitedly got more significant since Contador and Froome seriously focused on it, before that it was frequently treated as a second tier race that Heras used to win after Armstrong took his chains off, Ullrich won it casually as a preperation race for Worlds, does anyone even remember Angel Casero etc.).
As GTs go, it's simply Tour>>>>>>>Giro>>>>>>Vuelta. Yes, you might all turn up your nose about the big bad Tour that is boring anyway yadaayadaa, but that's just how it is, counting Vuelta podiums or stage victories spread out over 20 years is simply irrelevant compared to the guy that won all 3 Grand Tours.
If you take the Vuelta out of the picture regarding GTs you have 2 3rd places for Valverde compared to 3 victories, 2 second places and 3 third places for Nibali, he has simply been way better than Valverde in the Tour and the Giro.
Valverde has Worlds going for him but that's about it. Yes his total win count is impressive but no one cares that Greipel has more total wins than Boonen, it's an interesting fact but not relevant regarding who has the better palmares.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Just for reference, this is what PCS thinks of the matter:

Vincenzo Nibali versus Alejandro Valverde

Head to head career results between Vincenzo Nibali and Alejandro Valverde. The overal score is 35.2% for Vincenzo Nibali versus 64.8% for Alejandro Valverde. A comparison on same race results, time trial points and the points per age.

www.procyclingstats.com

Who is the best rider of alltime?

The ProCyclingStats alltime ranking is led by Eddy Merckx with 3859.8 points, before Sean Kelly (2171.1 points) and Francesco Moser (2129.2 points). Considering the enormous gap between Merckx and Kelly (3859.8) we can conclude that Merckx is the best rider of all time.

www.procyclingstats.com

In the all time ranking i'd say both are ranked too high. In the head to head, it's about how i see it.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

To know who is third and fourth best behind Vino and Laporte.

The list goes as follows:

1. Vino - because he's won everything, either in a literal sense (as in finishing first) or morally which is arguably even more important (for those too young to remember he was the victim of french corruption in 2007).
2. Laporte - He is also a man who prefers showing gratitude to both teammates and competitors by letting them win much like Vino.
3. Nibali -Winning all3 GTs is the most impressive thing you can do unless you're a hyper-focused classics rider and have several Flandern and Roubaixs to your name.
4. The Vino twins based on my clairvoyance skills
5. Valverde

 

[gregrowlerson]

The list goes as follows:

1. Vino - because he's won everything, either in a literal sense (as in finishing first) or morally which is arguably even more important (for those too young to remember he was the victim of french corruption in 2007).
2. Laporte - He is also a man who prefers showing gratitude to both teammates and competitors by letting them win much like Vino.
3. Nibali -Winning all3 GTs is the most impressive thing you can do unless you're a hyper-focused classics rider and have several Flandern and Roubaixs to your name.
4. The Vino twins based on my clairvoyance skills
5. Valverde

6th. Remco - but apparently he'll be 1st one day.
7th. Frandy - the Frank & Andy clone.
8th. TGBM - needs no explanation.
69th. Froome.

I heard a whisper that there is a rider even above Vino, but that he's invisible, even on lists.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

The list goes as follows:

1. Vino - because he's won everything, either in a literal sense (as in finishing first) or morally which is arguably even more important (for those too young to remember he was the victim of french corruption in 2007).
2. Laporte - He is also a man who prefers showing gratitude to both teammates and competitors by letting them win much like Vino.
3. Nibali -Winning all3 GTs is the most impressive thing you can do unless you're a hyper-focused classics rider and have several Flandern and Roubaixs to your name.
4. The Vino twins based on my clairvoyance skills
5. Valverde

Great Post!!!


If we are talking moral victories, Vicnenzo won:

-2012 Lige Bastogne Liege
-Innsbruck
-Rio
-2018 Tour
-2013 Vuelta
-2017 Vuelta
-2018 lombarida

 

[Ilmaestro99]

6th. Remco - but apparently he'll be 1st one day.
7th. Frandy - the Frank & Andy clone.
8th. TGBM - needs no explanation.
69th. Froome.

I heard a whisper that there is a rider even above Vino, but that he's invisible, even on lists.

In 10 years, the rider above Vino will be Fasuto Masnada

 

[gregrowlerson]

In 10 years, the rider above Vino will be Fasuto Masnada

Don't be ridiculous.

In 10 years, Valverde will be above everyone.

And I forgot about Simon Spilak; that true art of achieving success in only one country, so he's sixth. Move all my other riders down a spot.

 

[perico]

Agreed (the greatest loss of that was his chance at the 2018 WCRR), but in this thread it equals Valverde's crash. The team change was already a catastrophe when it was announced, it only made sense if he asked for too much and got no other offer at that level.

I don’t think Valverde’s crash was as serious as Nibali’s, but you could compare Valverde’s crashes in the 2008 TDF when he was the straight up pre race favorite of robbing him of at least a podium at minimum. He still finished the race pretty high so it is overlooked, but he lost most of his time on the days after his crash.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I don’t think Valverde’s crash was as serious as Nibali’s, but you could compare Valverde’s crashes in the 2008 TDF when he was the straight up pre race favorite of robbing him of at least a podium at minimum. He still finished the race pretty high so it is overlooked, but he lost most of his time on the days after his crash.

"Will admit Valverde was over 90% chance to lose 2008 Tour."

Red Rick, probably.

 

[tobydawq]

Great Post!!!


If we are talking moral victories, Vicnenzo won:

-2012 Lige Bastogne Liege
-Innsbruck
-Rio
-2018 Tour
-2013 Vuelta
-2017 Vuelta
-2018 lombarida

Terrible post.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Terrible post.

Who do you think has a better palmares Toby? Vincenzo or Bala?

 

[topcat]

Who do you think has a better palmares Toby? Vincenzo or Bala?

Sagan

 

[tobydawq]

Who do you think has a better palmares Toby? Vincenzo or Bala?

I think Valverde but I can see both sides of the argument and I know that I am obviously not an impartial judge.

 

[tobydawq]

Sagan

I thought he would get there but he stalled completely at an age of 29.

Actually, I think one of the most amazing things about Valverde is that he has somehow managed to still be competitive with this new and better performing generation coming through when so many of the other stars from approximately five years ago (who are all significantly younger than him) have fallen off a cliff.

 

[topcat]

This is unlikely, but if Valverde had a consistent 2022 and got several 2nd and third places and Nibali was anonymous but got one big win, this thread would be exactly the same, now wouldn't it?

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think Nibali has to be the most overrated rider on this forum, ever.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

I think Nibali has to be the most overrated rider on this forum, ever.

The only rider in my lifetime who won all 3 grand tours and more than one different monument

 

[topcat]

I think Nibali has to be the most overrated rider on this forum, ever.

Laporte.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Laporte.

What is this hearsay!

Must have gotten him confused with Latour.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

I think Nibali has to be the most overrated rider on this forum, ever.

Comments like these are the reason why Nibali has to be the most underrated rider on this form, ever.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Comments like these are the reason why Nibali has to be the most underrated rider on this form, ever.

If Contador and Froome didn’t crash out I’m sure Nibali would receive a lot more praise.

 

[tobydawq]

If Contador and Froome didn’t crash out I’m sure Nibali would receive a lot more praise.

I don't really follow. What would one more third place have added to his palmares? People who are pro Nibali in this discussion kind of have to make a point of them not being very important, otherwise Valverde would win by a landslide.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

I don't really follow. What would one more third place have added to his palmares? People who are pro Nibali in this discussion kind of have to make a point of them not being very important, otherwise Valverde would win by a landslide.

He would have beaten frome and contador if they stayed the whole race

 

[tobydawq]

He would have beaten frome and contador if they stayed the whole race

Yeah, no. Not if they hadn't crashed. At least not Froome.