Who is a clean rider

[Franklin]

I read you of course but how plausible is it that he got his early trackresults clean?

Hard to say considering we miss data. The argument could be made that Track isn't as heavily contested, so a true talent could do it without doping. Seems hard to swallow, but we simply don't know.

 

[stutue]

Nope. Kohl doped since he was 19.

So if Wiggins was already doping, what caused both the miraculous physical transformation and the change in attitude to dopers?

To be clear, the above aren't neccesarily my opinions but I have seen them voiced here many times in the last two weeks. It seems to me that if you hold the opinion that Wiggins alleged miracle transformation was through doping, then by default he cannot have been doping prior to that especially considering that the introduction of the biopassport is widely believed to have at least caused some constriction of doping. Wiggins transformation elides nicely with the introduction of the biopass.

 

[Netserk]

I didn't say it was for missed tests, only that whatever he'd done was done more than once.

didn't he get banned for missing tests?

10 Char

 

[Netserk]

So if Wiggins was already doping, what caused both the miraculous physical transformation and the change in attitude to dopers?

To be clear, the above aren't neccesarily my opinions but I have seen them voiced here many times in the last two weeks. It seems to me that if you hold the opinion that Wiggins alleged miracle transformation was through doping, then by default he cannot have been doping prior to that especially considering that the introduction of the biopassport is widely believed to have at least caused some constriction of doping. Wiggins transformation elides nicely with the introduction of the biopass.

Low octane to high octane.

A possibility.

 

[stutue]

Low octane to high octane.

A possibility.

A possibility, but likely? I think not unless it was something new and undetectable... But of course this would have had to have been available to him at Garmin, which would create many new questions in themselves.

Likeliest possibilities? There was no miraculous transformation or he was a non-doper turned doper in 2009.

 

[Netserk]

A possibility, but likely? I think not unless it was something new and undetectable... But of course this would have had to have been available to him at Garmin, which would create many new questions in themselves.

Likeliest possibilities? There was no miraculous transformation or he was a non-doper turned doper in 2009.

Why not something old and undetectable like micro-dosing epo and BBs? Plus maybe aicar and some other drugs?

 

[stutue]

In which case you'd have to wonder why that would create a "magical" transformation over the doping techniques used prior_ to the transformation.

Like I said, seems to me that either there was no miracle transformatiin , or if there was he was clean before. That would also fit in with his own inconsistent ramblings about dopers.

 

[del1962]

Lance Armstrong was not only doping, but EPO doping with Ferrari when he was an also ran in the 1995 TDF and was most likely on EPO in 93 when he won the worlds, so his transformation to grand tour winner is not because he suddenly started doping.

 

[lllludo]

In which case you'd have to wonder why that would create a "magical" transformation over the doping techniques used prior_ to the transformation.

Like I said, seems to me that either there was no miracle transformation , or if there was he was clean before. That would also fit in with his own inconsistent ramblings about dopers.

In 2008 Wiggins was coached at the British Cycling Fed by the likes of Brailsford and Ellingworth because his major goal was Bejing.
It was the same in 2009, as he was prepared for the 2009 Tour de France with the assistance of the BCF.
BCF, as they claim, were not a road racing team. They were an innovative track program. So, if BCF is related to a doping program, it's possible they have developed or monitored innovative doping programs capable of transforming low-octane low profile riders, such as Wiggins or Froome, into high-octane high-profile riders.

 

[stutue]

I know what your are saying, and of course you might be correct but unless you can say what those innovative doping techniques are then I'm not sure where this gets us.

You might as well suggest he has an innovative electric motor stuck up his @55

 

[Netserk]

I know what your are saying, and of course you might be correct but unless you can say what those innovative doping techniques are then I'm not sure where this gets us.

You might as well suggest he has an innovative electric motor stuck up his @55

Can you name me the innovative doping techniques that Armstrong used in '99 that he didn't use in '96?

If not, why should anyone be able to tell with Wiggins?

 

[stutue]

Can you name me the innovative doping techniques that Armstrong used in '99 that he didn't use in '96?

If not, why should anyone be able to tell with Wiggins?

I can speculate. Will that do?

More blood bags, more EPO.

We know the organisation of dope/blood supply was better and we know that was a fairly crucial advantage he had over other teams.

He was able to do this because there was no EPO test, no biopassport and quite possibly corrupt backing from the UCI.

 

[Netserk]

I can speculate. Will that do?

More blood bags, more EPO.

We know the organisation of dope/blood supply was better and we know that was a fairly crucial advantage he had over other teams.

He was able to do this because there was no EPO test, no biopassport and quite possibly corrupt backing from the UCI.

AFAIK he didn't use BBs in '99, he used EPO both years and was a client of Ferrari both years.

Yet he was a far better climber in '99 than '96. He was transformed.

How is 'more EPO' an 'innovative doping technique'?

edit: would still like an answer to:

If not, why should anyone be able to tell with Wiggins?

 

[stutue]

If you go back a bit you'll see it wasn't me that suggested innovative techniques.

I think you might accidentally be arguing against yourself here.

 

[DirtyWorks]

BCF, as they claim, were not a road racing team. They were an innovative track program.

An honest question, what were the innovations? I don't follow track, so I have no clue.

 

[Benotti69]

An honest question, what were the innovations? I don't follow track, so I have no clue.

Round wheels apparently......

 

[Archibald]

10 Char

that was a question not a statement

AFAIK he didn't use BBs in '99, he used EPO both years and was a client of Ferrari both years.

didn't Tyler mention in his book that they were using BB's in 99? - something about it being done in their shabby "bad-news bears" campervans, but only the A team in one van and not the entire team. (99 being the last year they used the campervans)
that may be off base, and possibly only EPO shots...

 

[zigmeister]

Phil Gaimon

 

[bobbins]

In 2008 Wiggins was coached at the British Cycling Fed by the likes of Brailsford and Ellingworth because his major goal was Bejing.
It was the same in 2009, as he was prepared for the 2009 Tour de France with the assistance of the BCF.
BCF, as they claim, were not a road racing team. They were an innovative track program. So, if BCF is related to a doping program, it's possible they have developed or monitored innovative doping programs capable of transforming low-octane low profile riders, such as Wiggins or Froome, into high-octane high-profile riders.

Brailsford isn't a coach and Rod not much more of one.

As far as clean riders - Stannard is always mentioned as a rider who won't take anything. What he's being offered I don't know but I like to believe he's clean.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

In 2008 Wiggins was coached at the British Cycling Fed by the likes of Brailsford and Ellingworth because his major goal was Bejing.
It was the same in 2009, as he was prepared for the 2009 Tour de France with the assistance of the BCF.

As Bobbins has said - Brailsford is not a coach in the sense of training a rider, and Ellingsworth had never coached Wiggins, according to Wiggins, until 2010.

In his book, Ellingsworth does not mention training or coaching Wiggins once - in fact they held UK team training camps for the World champs in 2009 and Wiggo didn't even show up. You'd think someone who had coached a rider to 2009 4th place at the Tour, then elevated to the podium (his book was released in 2013) would mention at least once training Wiggo to that podium, but no, nothing.

We don't know who coached Wiggo in 2009, and for that matter, neither does Jonathan Vaughters, the team manager / owner of Wiggins' 2009 Tour team.

Vaughters also claimed Wiggo was being trained in Manchester, but unless that's corroborated somewhere, he could have been anywhere.

You know that makes sense.

 

[bobbins]

As Bobbins has said - Brailsford is not a coach in the sense of training a rider, and Ellingsworth had never coached Wiggins, according to Wiggins, until 2010.

In his book, Ellingsworth does not mention training or coaching Wiggins once - in fact they held UK team training camps for the World champs in 2009 and Wiggo didn't even show up. You'd think someone who had coached a rider to 2009 4th place at the Tour, then elevated to the podium (his book was released in 2013) would mention at least once training Wiggo to that podium, but no, nothing.

We don't know who coached Wiggo in 2009, and for that matter, neither does Jonathan Vaughters, the team manager / owner of Wiggins' 2009 Tour team.

Vaughters also claimed Wiggo was being trained in Manchester, but unless that's corroborated somewhere, he could have been anywhere.

You know that makes sense.

I think he was still in contact with Shane Sutton but had others involved in his preparation also.

 

[Jamie1012]

Wrong thread

 

[mihhint]

Riders I believe in/cheer for now: DeGreef, Gerdemann, Pinot, Roche, Taaramae, Kittel, Degenkolb, LeMevel, and then some

HCT - HGB - %RETS

28.11.2007

42,3 - 14,3 - 0,98

42,9 - 14,6 - 0,84

40,1 - 14,3 - 0,75

41,2 - 14,3 - 1,07

44,9 - 15,3 - 0,85

42,3 - 14,3 - 0,87

41,5 - 14,3 - 0,95

43,0 - 14,6 - 0,71

42,7 - 14,3 - 0,86

45,3 - 15,1 - 0,70

40,9 - 14,0 - 0,98

41,5 - 14,1 - 0,87

41,6 - 14,2 - 0,74

44,0 - 15,0 - 1,03

43,2 - 14,3 - 0,65

42,9 - 14,9 - 0,91

44,8 - 14,9 - 1,11

43,0 - 14,5 - 0,89

40,5 - 14,3 - 0,96

39,7 - 13,6 - 1,06

44,2 - 14,8 - 0,88

42,7 - 14,6 - 0,92

40,5 - 13,7 - 0,81

42,9 - 14,5 - 0,80

41,6 - 14,3 - 0,88

41,2 - 14,0 - 0,78

41,3 - 13,7 - 0,94

38,7 - 13,1 - 0,96

40,6 - 13,8 - 1,02

41,8 - 14,2 - 1,04

40,8 - 14,5 - 0,84

10.10.2013

He released his blood data back in the spring when Estonian cross-country skiers were all over the news due to fishy past blood numbers coming public. I'm no expert, but looks to me like if he is doping, he is really holding himself back, in regards to blood at least

 

[Dear Wiggo]

HCT - HGB - %RETS

28.11.2007

42,3 - 14,3 - 0,98

I'll look, but do you have a link for this data?

 

[mihhint]

I'll look, but do you have a link for this data?

It's was all pretty much in the post above, rest is just the article: https://translate.google.com/transl.../taaramae-avaldas-verepassi-naidud&edit-text=