Who is Floyd Landis?

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Dr. Maserati

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miloman said:
How many protour riders did he beat? How many teams did you recognize by name? Point is, what was the level of competition? Hardly the same thing as winning a UCI sanctioned event. What do you think the payout was for 4th place? The guy who won, is he a former TDF winner? And I don't know how much he stands to collect from his suit if any, but if he does, given his previous behavior, do you think he is entitled to it?
So you haven't heard of ProTour riders Hayden Roulston of HTC or Greg Henderson of Sky - actually the level of competition was very good.

Landis did very well to finish 4th as he is not getting regular workouts at that level because he is blacklisted.

If he gets money back for USPS - then yes, he is entitled to an agreed percentage.
 
miloman said:
Nope, neither has Floyd, and David never said he would. However, David didn't bilk naive fans around the word of their hard earned cash to contribute to his defense fund. I have a real problem with that. I mean, how devoid of character can one be? He found a way to rationalize taking their cash then, so what makes me think he will behave any better now? I will wait and see before I embrace him. Time will tell which side of the fence he will fall on. I have a question for you, do you think Floyd was involved in hacking into the computer? If so, why not come clean on that account. Is it because he could go to jail? What about what happened with LeMond during his hearing, do you believe those actions were taken without his knowledge? I still have questions about his character, do you?
Maybe consider these views in the context of who gave him (Landis) the advice to pursue the denial strategy, who the role model was and the depth of desperation of a failed career/life based on it... naive yes, victim... perhaps, at fault... the blame should at least be shared by the company he kept, the advice he got and (granted) like an idiot blindly followed. It worked for the King of Corruption, why not his minions?
 
May 26, 2010
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TubularBills said:
Maybe consider these views in the context of who gave him (Landis) the advice to pursue the denial strategy, who the role model was and the depth of desperation of a failed career/life based on it... naive yes, victim... perhaps, at fault... the blame should at least be shared by the company he kept, the advice he got and (granted) like an idiot blindly followed. It worked for the King of Corruption, why not his minions?
Nah he couldn't do that, it would defeat the whole purpose of starting the thread;)
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
So you haven't heard of ProTour riders Hayden Roulston of HTC or Greg Henderson of Sky - actually the level of competition was very good.

Landis did very well to finish 4th as he is not getting regular workouts at that level because he is blacklisted.If he gets money back for USPS - then yes, he is entitled to an agreed percentage.
You keep saying he's "blacklisted." Who blacklisted him, and where is the "blacklist" he's on? I'm not sure there is such a thing as a blacklist. I'm sure a lot of people weigh the pros and cons and decide he isn't worth it. How old is Floyd now -- 35, 36 and with a bum hip no less. His results since his comeback have been less than stellar. Sure a few blips here and there but nothing to put him on the radar. Forget the baggage he brings with him, given his age and health, is this the guy you want to build a team around? He's arrogant, doesn't follow team orders, he got chased out of one team for reasons only know to him. . . I mean really. Is this your guy? How much do you think his services as a racer are worth on the open market? Knowing a little about domestic contracts, I can't believe he would get much more than room and board. You can do better at the 7-11. I’m not trying to harsh the guy, but this “blacklist” thing seems more like teams making sound competitive and financial decisions than enforcing some kind of omerta. It seems in most sports, if you can bring it home, there is always someone willing to sign you up and deal with the baggage.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Seems like an awful ammount of arguing about shades of grey. All the above guys doped, took their sanction, and went back to stomping.

Landis is the only guy who tried to expose institutional and entrenched corruption at the highest level of the sport. Everyone else shut the f*ck up and kept on keeping on.

This obviously works (the shutting your trap technique), so why the harsh for FL? It seems like there's a fair critical mass of fans who would like to see doping removed from pro cycling. Once again - what approach would you prefer for him to have taken?

Amongst the rabid lunatics here it sort of seems like you're damned if you do, and maybe not damned so much if you don't.

This carries over to the JV thread as well. JV could have dumped a tirade that would have probably made all of us sh*t our pants, but he didn't. He says the right things (much as all the above-mentioned, save FL), so he stays in the scene. This sport is so encumbred with big money that there will be no simple fix, I'm hoping for steps in the right direction. JV's schtick may just end up to be more obfuscation of doping...
 
Jul 29, 2010
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miloman said:
How old is Floyd now -- 35, 36 and with a bum hip no less. His results since his comeback have been less than stellar. Sure a few blips here and there but nothing to put him on the radar. Forget the baggage he brings with him, given his age and health, is this the guy you want to build a team around? He's arrogant, doesn't follow team orders, he got chased out of one team for reasons only know to him. ..
The evolution of your "case" against Landis has been quite interesting...

Started off, he was just immoral.
Then, he was just in it to get rich. Then, he needed to get a real job, like you. Next, he became a welfare bum who only races backwater events in New Zealand. Now, its simply that he's too old and has a "bum hip". (Umm, wasn't that fixed?). And finally to top if off, he's arrogant, doesn't folllow orders, and....

We get it. You don't like Floyd. :eek:
But for someone who started a thread, "Who is Floyd?", you seem to know ALLL there is to know about him. :)
 

Dr. Maserati

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miloman said:
You keep saying he's "blacklisted." Who blacklisted him, and where is the "blacklist" he's on? I'm not sure there is such a thing as a blacklist. I'm sure a lot of people weigh the pros and cons and decide he isn't worth it. How old is Floyd now -- 35, 36 and with a bum hip no less. His results since his comeback have been less than stellar. Sure a few blips here and there but nothing to put him on the radar. Forget the baggage he brings with him, given his age and health, is this the guy you want to build a team around? He's arrogant, doesn't follow team orders, he got chased out of one team for reasons only know to him. . . I mean really. Is this your guy? How much do you think his services as a racer are worth on the open market? Knowing a little about domestic contracts, I can't believe he would get much more than room and board. You can do better at the 7-11. I’m not trying to harsh the guy, but this “blacklist” thing seems more like teams making sound competitive and financial decisions than enforcing some kind of omerta. It seems in most sports, if you can bring it home, there is always someone willing to sign you up and deal with the baggage.
Pat McQuaid and the UCI have a blacklist of riders who ProTour teams are not allowed to sign.
This information was uncovered by Verner Møller who was investigating why Rasmussen was not allowed return to the top flight of the sport.

Did I say build a team around him?
FL has just turned 35, but he can still be fairly competitive - and good value, especially as he brings on board his own loyal sponsor.
So which team did he get "chased out of"? If you mean Bahati then they let him go after his confession - even though Bahati admitted he knew FL was going to confess for a while.

It seems Bahati is like you - it wasn't what he said, it was who he said it about.

No - Floyd is not "my guy" as you suggest. But he is not the moneygrabbing, useless cyclist and serial liar you keep trying to paint him as - Im just trying to help you find your way out of the closet.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Floyd is not "my guy" as you suggest. But he is not the moneygrabbing, useless cyclist and serial liar you keep trying to paint him as - Im just trying to help you find your way out of the closet.
Well said, doc. I'm wondering if the Mexican influence in America has something to do with knuckleheads constantly looking for their own personal pinata...
 
Jan 5, 2010
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JMBeaushrimp said:
Well said, doc. I'm wondering if the Mexican influence in America has something to do with knuckleheads constantly looking for their own personal pinata...
Look, the guy has the right to live his life any way he wants to, it isn’t for me to say. But don’t expect me to accept his motives as sincere until I see some proof of this big transformation he supposedly has undergone. Yes, I’m sure he is still a work in progress, but objectively look at all the facts. I for one was behind him 100%; I really thought he was innocent and got the shaft. Until I see more in the way of contrition, I am going to be suspicious. I will trust, but verify any information coming out of his mouth from here on, I think that’s fair. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me! To quote The Who, “. . . I'll get on my knees and pray, we don't get fooled again . . . don't get fooled again, No, no!”
 
miloman said:
Look, the guy has the right to live his life any way he wants to, it isn’t for me to say. But don’t expect me to accept his motives as sincere until I see some proof of this big transformation he supposedly has undergone. Yes, I’m sure he is still a work in progress, but objectively look at all the facts. I for one was behind him 100%; I really thought he was innocent and got the shaft. Until I see more in the way of contrition, I am going to be suspicious. I will trust, but verify any information coming out of his mouth from here on, I think that’s fair. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me! To quote The Who, “. . . I'll get on my knees and pray, we don't get fooled again . . . don't get fooled again, No, no!”
Nobody's motives are completely "pure" when it comes to having the public involved in some fashion. Only anonymity ensures "purity" in the final analysis.

But this is rather beside point. It isn't about his moral integrity, but whether or not he's telling the truth. In my book he is, though perhaps has still omited some things.

So you were basically behind him 100%, while you liked the story line (and frankily I question your intelligence if you bought into his "the lab has messed things up" if not wantonly "conspired against me" - which, by the way, has been Armstrong's defense about his 99 B samples), though now that he has changed the plot, which you find less agreeable, you have become terribly suspicious.

How can people get things so wrong and not be able to distinguish between what is rubish and what has any merit? Just beside me.
 
Jan 5, 2010
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rhubroma said:
Nobody's motives are completely "pure" when it comes to having the public involved in some fashion. Only anonymity ensures "purity" in the final analysis.

But this is rather beside point. It isn't about his moral integrity, but whether or not he's telling the truth. In my book he is, though perhaps has still omited some things.

So you were basically behind him 100%, while you liked the story line (and frankily I question your intelligence if you bought into his "the lab has messed things up" if not wantonly "conspired against me" - which, by the way, has been Armstrong's defense about his 99 B samples), though now that he has changed the plot, which you find less agreeable, you have become terribly suspicious.

How can people get things so wrong and not be able to distinguish between what is rubish and what has any merit? Just beside me.
I have had personal experience with faulty lab work and duplicitous behavior. So I could see where it was possible. In my case, it meant a false diagnosis and more time in the hospital, in Floyd’s case it would mean his title and career. So yes, I gave him the benefit of the doubt and please note, there were some compelling arguments. I perhaps wanted to believe his superhuman effort coming back after a disastrous stage was a result of will and determination not pharmacology. I was wrong. Maybe I was naïve and overlooked the obvious. I used to look at the peloton and wondered if any were riding doped, now I wonder if any are riding clean. So you may be right about the plot changing and my finding it less agreeable. I think being at least a little suspicious is a fairly normal response given the context, don’t you?. I will keep an open mind and reserve judgment until more information comes out. However, if this experience has taught me anything it is this: no matter how compelling the arguments may be, you need to consider the counterpoint to any point made, or we may all be fooled again.
 
Jul 29, 2010
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A-ha!

miloman said:
...I for one was behind him 100%; I really thought he was innocent and got the shaft.”
Aha. Finally, you have revealed yourself. It's taken 19 pages and 183 posts of back and forth, but at long last, the truth comes out.

So, three questions:

1. Exactly how much did you contribute to the Fairness Fund?
2. Have you applied for a refund?
3. Is Floyd's book still on your bookshelf, or have you thrown it out? (like a scorned woman throws her man's clothes out on the front yard)..

Bonus question: Do you still believe the French hate "us"? :)
 
Jan 5, 2010
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NashbarShorts said:
Aha. Finally, you have revealed yourself. It's taken 19 pages and 183 posts of back and forth, but at long last, the truth comes out.

So, three questions:

1. Exactly how much did you contribute to the Fairness Fund?
2. Have you applied for a refund?
3. Is Floyd's book still on your bookshelf, or have you thrown it out? (like a scorned woman throws her man's clothes out on the front yard)..

Bonus question: Do you still believe the French hate "us"? :)
Didn’t contribute a cent, but regularly contribute to worthwhile charities. So there is no refund due me. I donated the book to the library so someone else who is curious can check it out and not waste their money like I did.

And do I think the French hate us; well let me share two personal experiences. 1) Last time I was in Paris we ordered bottle water at a restaurant on the Champs Elysees and when it arrived it was already opened. I didn’t think anything of it until we filled our glasses and there were “floaters” in the water. We sent it back and witnessed the waiter pretending to open another bottle in front of us with a bottle opener, but the bottle cap was not attached to the bottle, it was being held on top with his hand. We paid a high price for sketchy Parisian tap water. 2) At the Louvre, we were charged for a full day pass, when it was at the ½ day mark. With my best attempt at speaking French, I pointed to the sign and the clock and explained we wanted the ½ day pass not the full day. The woman at the ticket window would not provide the proper change. In fact she turned her chair around and wouldn’t look at us, behaving like a child. Her only response was “NO!” Well, what is an “ugly American” to do? When we were done, we found a group of fellow Americans and Canadians and gave them our passes. Yes, I do think there is something to the French not liking Americans too much
 
Jul 6, 2010
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miloman said:
And do I think the French hate us (...) Yes, I do think there is something to the French not liking Americans too much
Well, you're wrong, and if you come here with the idea that French people are treating you badly because you're an "ugly american", then your behavior is probably what causes people to not be so kind to you. Yeah, there are many waiters in Paris who are not that nice, but don't worry, they are the same with many people... As for the Louvre, there's no such thing as 'half-day pass', so you probably misunderstood the signs. There's a 'night' ticket if you enter after 6pm on Tuesday and Friday, but that's it...

I could fill pages here about feeling 'mistreated' in the US (I lived in LA for two years, and that's more than just coming as a tourist... ), but that never made me feel like there was a general rule about american people hating the French.
 

flicker

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miloman said:
Didn’t contribute a cent, but regularly contribute to worthwhile charities. So there is no refund due me. I donated the book to the library so someone else who is curious can check it out and not waste their money like I did.

And do I think the French hate us; well let me share two personal experiences. 1) Last time I was in Paris we ordered bottle water at a restaurant on the Champs Elysees and when it arrived it was already opened. I didn’t think anything of it until we filled our glasses and there were “floaters” in the water. We sent it back and witnessed the waiter pretending to open another bottle in front of us with a bottle opener, but the bottle cap was not attached to the bottle, it was being held on top with his hand. We paid a high price for sketchy Parisian tap water. 2) At the Louvre, we were charged for a full day pass, when it was at the ½ day mark. With my best attempt at speaking French, I pointed to the sign and the clock and explained we wanted the ½ day pass not the full day. The woman at the ticket window would not provide the proper change. In fact she turned her chair around and wouldn’t look at us, behaving like a child. Her only response was “NO!” Well, what is an “ugly American” to do? When we were done, we found a group of fellow Americans and Canadians and gave them our passes. Yes, I do think there is something to the French not liking Americans too much
Could it have been because you were wearing a cheap felt beret that had the name "Rusty" monogramed across the front in bold yellow script?

Sorry, just kidding. I experienced rudeness in Paris also, but only from people who were doing business with the public. I also met really nice people in Paris, but I kept a low profile there as far as my nationality. It was 1985 and there was a massive terrorism alert across Europe. I did not want to reveal my nationality because outside of the US American citizens are targets for terrorists.

As I lived in an area frequented here in the US frequented by tourists I noticed myself and others "getting an attitude" towards certain tourists we did not like.

Best advice is go back to Paris and enjoy!
 
Jan 5, 2010
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callac said:
Well, you're wrong, and if you come here with the idea that French people are treating you badly because you're an "ugly american", then your behavior is probably what causes people to not be so kind to you. Yeah, there are many waiters in Paris who are not that nice, but don't worry, they are the same with many people... As for the Louvre, there's no such thing as 'half-day pass', so you probably misunderstood the signs. There's a 'night' ticket if you enter after 6pm on Tuesday and Friday, but that's it...

I could fill pages here about feeling 'mistreated' in the US (I lived in LA for two years, and that's more than just coming as a tourist... ), but that never made me feel like there was a general rule about american people hating the French.
There was when I last toured the Louvre over 10 years ago. I don't recall the time of entry, but we clearly qulified for the reduced rate and were not given it. I wouldn't say it if it didn't happen. And believe me or not, I didn't want to buy into the stories heard about how rude the French can be to Americans. I'm a cyclist. It's France! And I always tried to communicate with the French in their own language out of courtesy. My wife is from Europe. I have traveled all over the continent and these are just a few of the experiences I have had while in France. I live in an area of the US where lots of tourists from Europe and Asia visit and I always try to show them, and especially the French, the courtesy I felt denied while in Paris. I’m sorry you felt mistreated while in the States. If it’s any consolation, I have had at least as many bad experiences while on vacation in Los Angeles as France, so obviously there is no shortage of bad behavior or poor manners on either side of the Atlantic.
 
miloman said:
There was when I last toured the Louvre over 10 years ago. I don't recall the time of entry, but we clearly qulified for the reduced rate and were not given it. I wouldn't say it if it didn't happen. And believe me or not, I didn't want to buy into the stories heard about how rude the French can be to Americans. I'm a cyclist. It's France! And I always tried to communicate with the French in their own language out of courtesy. My wife is from Europe. I have traveled all over the continent and these are just a few of the experiences I have had while in France. I live in an area of the US where lots of tourists from Europe and Asia visit and I always try to show them, and especially the French, the courtesy I felt denied while in Paris. I’m sorry you felt mistreated while in the States. If it’s any consolation, I have had at least as many bad experiences while on vacation in Los Angeles as France, so obviously there is no shortage of bad behavior or poor manners on either side of the Atlantic.
I went to Paris and after a photography show a friend of mine had put up on the outskirts of town, I went to the train station to get to my hotel. The trains were on strike at midnight. A Parisian guy insisted that he accompany me to another train station where I could get to the quartier of my hotel. It was forty minutes away. He had me meet his daughter and her fiancee just to say hi, before droping me off at the station.

The French aren't anti-American. This is a myth.
 
Jan 5, 2010
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rhubroma said:
I went to Paris and after a photography show a friend of mine had put up on the outskirts of town, I went to the train station to get to my hotel. The trains were on strike at midnight. A Parisian guy insisted that he accompany me to another train station where I could get to the quartier of my hotel. It was forty minutes away. He had me meet his daughter and her fiancee just to say hi, before droping me off at the station.

The French aren't anti-American. This is a myth.
Somewhat mirrors my experience in that it seemed the farther away from Paris I got, the friendlier people were. Of course I don’t think all French people hate Americans, but the way some of them act, it sure makes you wonder. I do think there are plenty who don’t like Americans or foreigners in general. People are people no matter where you go, you meet friendly ones and real jerks.
 

Barrus

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Apr 28, 2010
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miloman said:
Somewhat mirrors my experience in that it seemed the farther away from Paris I got, the friendlier people were. Of course I don’t think all French people hate Americans, but the way some of them act, it sure makes you wonder. I do think there are plenty who don’t like Americans or foreigners in general. People are people no matter where you go, you meet friendly ones and real jerks.
People in the center of most big cities, that are tourist hotspots, hate tourists. Which is quite logical.

(I have the same, I absolutely hate most tourists, especially those from London, or some arrogant *** from certain places of the US. Love Aussies and Canadians though)
 
May 26, 2010
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Barrus said:
(I have the same, I absolutely hate most tourists, especially those from London, or some arrogant *** from certain places of the US. Love Aussies and Canadians though)
you can write *** but not a$$???????
 

Barrus

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Benotti69 said:
you can write *** but not a$$???????
huh what would be wrong with ***?
Some even think Landis is one (see, I'm slowlysteering this back on-topic :p)
 

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