Who is Floyd Landis?

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Dr. Maserati

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miloman said:
Reading between the lines or putting your spin on what I post -- I guess that's your prerogative. But it's a big picture issue. Do you think anyone related to those Floyd fingered, aren't feeling the pinch? Do you think that children, wives, sisters, brothers, parents etc. are immune to feeling any anxiety over this. Then you have other aspects of the story like the Oakley rep claiming to LeMond that George took so many drugs, she wondered what his daughter would look like. . . it has all become part of the same story, and Floyd is the catalyst. Maybe you are one of the rare inividual who can compatmentalize things like this and not let it effect you, but I would guess thats not the case with most people. I'm sure a lot of people close to these riders are feeling the effects too. It's called collateral damage!
A big picture isssue? Really?

Would you not think it is the riders who have taken the PED's that have made their lives difficult for their families?
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
A big picture isssue? Really?

Would you not think it is the riders who have taken the PED's that have made their lives difficult for their families?
OK, I will consider you my better. Where do you think the guilt should begin an end and who do you think deserves to get hurt? Who should receive retribution and vindication and who should be made to pay and penalized? I don't know the answer, perhaps you do. I guess I'm still unconvinced that of all the potential people to benefit from this affair that Floyd should be at the front of the line. Floyd did everything that he accused others of doing. Along with paying everyone back who contributed to his defense fund, maybe he should apologize to all the clean riders he smoked while juiced and toss them a few bones as well. I don't know you tell me.
 
May 26, 2010
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miloman said:
...... did everything that he accused others of doing. Along with paying everyone back who contributed to his defense fund, maybe he should apologize to all the clean riders he smoked while juiced and toss them a few bones as well. I don't know you tell me.
I think he would, but when are they gonna come forward and say "i didn't dope and Landis beat me" ?
 
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Benotti69 said:
I think he would, but when are they gonna come forward and say "i didn't dope and Landis beat me" ?
If you believe that then you are a better man than I.

Money doesn’t change men, it merely unmasks them. If a man is naturally selfish or arrogant or greedy, the money brings that out, that is all.

-- Henry Ford


Once a cheat . . . . I hope I'm wrong and you are right!
 
May 26, 2010
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miloman said:
If you believe that then you are a better man than I.

Money doesn’t change men, it merely unmasks them. If a man is naturally selfish or arrogant or greedy, the money brings that out, that is all.

-- Henry Ford


Once a cheat . . . . I hope I'm wrong and you are right!
he has said if he makes any money he hopes to payback those who contributed to his fund. Unmasked you say? sometimes when the mask comes off it reveals good.
 

Dr. Maserati

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miloman said:
OK, I will consider you my better. Where do you think the guilt should begin an end and who do you think deserves to get hurt? Who should receive retribution and vindication and who should be made to pay and penalized? I don't know the answer, perhaps you do. I guess I'm still unconvinced that of all the potential people to benefit from this affair that Floyd should be at the front of the line. Floyd did everything that he accused others of doing. Along with paying everyone back who contributed to his defense fund, maybe he should apologize to all the clean riders he smoked while juiced and toss them a few bones as well. I don't know you tell me.
Very easy - you do the crime you do the time.

Sure Floyd doped, (but he didn't do everything that he accused others of doing) - but unlike most he was caught and sanctioned. Thats it.

You're view is that others should escape their punishment.
 
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Benotti69 said:
he has said if he makes any money he hopes to payback those who contributed to his fund. Unmasked you say? sometimes when the mask comes off it reveals good.
He also said he didn't cheat! His word seems to be less than his bond. Would he pass the $50. Buddy test? Do you believe if you loaned him $50. you would ever see it again? He has said a lot of things that we now know are lies. Everyone deserves a second chance, but it doesn't seem to me he is too concerned about anyone but himself right now, and I suspect that is the personality trait that got him in trouble with doping in the first place.
 
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miloman said:
He also said he didn't cheat! His word seems to be less than his bond. Would he pass the $50. Buddy test? Do you believe if you loaned him $50. you would ever see it again? He has said a lot of things that we now know are lies. Everyone deserves a second chance, but it doesn't seem to me he is too concerned about anyone but himself right now, and I suspect that is the personality trait that got him in trouble with doping in the first place.
Floyd was following the path taken by a lot of cyclists before him and lots since his positive. They lie to protect the ill gotten gains. Floyd was, in the omerta sense of cycling, unlucky with his advice on his positive, but i feel he has turned a corner.

I dont think Floyd is in any position to be really concerned with anyone right now but himself. If one cannot be happy, how can one make others happy?

Floyd is going through a dark time of his life i imagine. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. The sounds he is making right now are not what i consider one who is still lying would be saying. I would expect a more polished approach rather than what i have seen.
 

Dr. Maserati

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miloman said:
He also said he didn't cheat! His word seems to be less than his bond. Would he pass the $50. Buddy test? Do you believe if you loaned him $50. you would ever see it again? He has said a lot of things that we now know are lies. Everyone deserves a second chance, but it doesn't seem to me he is too concerned about anyone but himself right now, and I suspect that is the personality trait that got him in trouble with doping in the first place.
What do you know about his personality?
He entered a sport that is ravaged by PED use, he knew that if he wanted to succeed he would have to arm up to.

PED use is not a personality contest - good people dope, bad people dope, polite people dope, rude people dope.

All you have tried to do on this thread is smear him as someone who is only doing this to profit - even though he is broke and has not been paid to date and when asked to show where he blackmailed people you can't.

He lied for 4 years about not doping - now he is saying the opposite - so they can't both be false.
I wouldn't have given him $50 a year ago (or for his fund) - but I would lend him $50 now.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Very easy - you do the crime you do the time.

Sure Floyd doped, (but he didn't do everything that he accused others of doing) - but unlike most he was caught and sanctioned. Thats it.

You're view is that others should escape their punishment.
To the contrary, if you get caught, like Floyd, you get sanctioned. No one gets off for ratting on others. Two years is two years not 15 months like DD. But whatever crime others are charged with, if Landis is also guilty, then he should be treated likewise. Does anyone know what became of Landis' titles from 2006 back? Have all of his results been removed? Valverde's apparently will be with his recent sanction. The people he has accused haven't failed a drug test. When they do, the should be shown the same treatment as he.
 
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miloman said:
... The people he has accused haven't failed a drug test. When they do, the should be shown the same treatment as he.
Armstrong failed a test 99 TdF,which he produced a back dated TUE, then it is alleged he failed a TdS test for which he bribed the UCI and then on top of that we have the testing of his samples in which EPO was found. Floyd accused the team of organised doping. JV talked of leaving the team and its doping culture then joining a french team and no doping. Many former Armstrong team riders have tested positive after leaving the team. How many of those rode on the team with Floyd?
 

Dr. Maserati

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miloman said:
To the contrary, if you get caught, like Floyd, you get sanctioned. No one gets off for ratting on others. Two years is two years not 15 months like DD. But whatever crime others are charged with, if Landis is also guilty, then he should be treated likewise. Does anyone know what became of Landis' titles from 2006 back? Have all of his results been removed? Valverde's apparently will be with his recent sanction. The people he has accused haven't failed a drug test. When they do, the should be shown the same treatment as he.


Landis was caught - he did his 2 years - he should have been allowed back in the sport and not blacklisted as he was.

To the highlighted - what has testing got to do with it? If they are found guilty if doping or attempted doping they should be sanctioned too.
Doping is doping.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
What do you know about his personality?
He entered a sport that is ravaged by PED use, he knew that if he wanted to succeed he would have to arm up to.

PED use is not a personality contest - good people dope, bad people dope, polite people dope, rude people dope.

All you have tried to do on this thread is smear him as someone who is only doing this to profit - even though he is broke and has not been paid to date and when asked to show where he blackmailed people you can't.

He lied for 4 years about not doping - now he is saying the opposite - so they can't both be false.
I wouldn't have given him $50 a year ago (or for his fund) - but I would lend him $50 now.
Where do I begin? No I don't know him well, I have met him briefly, exchanged a few words, so obviously I can't speak to his personality. True the sport was and perhaps still is ravaged by PED use and for whatever reason he bought into the notion that he needed to dope. As far as good people dope, I would say there are people who do good things who also dope, but I'm not sure I buy into the notion that "good" people dope. Most "good" people are morally opposed to cheating like that. That’s like saying "good" people regularly commit crimes; it is after all a crime. If you routinely do wrong, I think you would be hard pressed to convince most people you’re "good."

I don't want to smear the man, I want him to take responsibility for all the collateral damage he is causing, And here's a thought, he should try to fix the problem he helped create and maybe, pay back a few people and even consider turning money over to charity.

And I don't need to go into the "blackmail" thing again, read an earlier post. I didn't say I have knowledge of him blackmailing anyone. And yes, he lied for 4years but now he is "telling the truth," are you sure, how can you be so sure? Is it because his views coincide with yours?

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I suspect you do. I don't care who goes down, just so the right one does. And you can give your money to whoever you want. That isn't the point. The point is how much do you trust him? Me, not so much, but I am waiting to be convinced! I would have liked the story much more if Floyd, a talented cyclist confronted with doping, chose not to, and to be "good" and rode clean and triumphed over insurmountable odds and won the Tour, yada, yada, yada. Or, less exciting, but more relevant when confronted with doping refused, got the goods on everyone, and turned them in. Unfortunately, the combination of the two stories doesn’t work for me and apparently a lot of other people. Again, I am still waiting to be convinced that he’s the man who won’t cop out, when there’s danger all about!
 
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Benotti69 said:
Armstrong failed a test 99 TdF,which he produced a back dated TUE, then it is alleged he failed a TdS test for which he bribed the UCI and then on top of that we have the testing of his samples in which EPO was found. Floyd accused the team of organised doping. JV talked of leaving the team and its doping culture then joining a french team and no doping. Many former Armstrong team riders have tested positive after leaving the team. How many of those rode on the team with Floyd?
It's Hearsay, you and I may believe it is all true, but, hearsay nonetheless! Until they fail an in or out of competition test, they are considered clean. Not my rules.
 

Dr. Maserati

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miloman said:
Where do I begin? No I don't know him well, I have met him briefly, exchanged a few words, so obviously I can't speak to his personality. True the sport was and perhaps still is ravaged by PED use and for whatever reason he bought into the notion that he needed to dope. As far as good people dope, I would say there are people who do good things who also dope, but I'm not sure I buy into the notion that "good" people dope. Most "good" people are morally opposed to cheating like that. That’s like saying "good" people regularly commit crimes; it is after all a crime. If you routinely do wrong, I think you would be hard pressed to convince most people you’re "good."

I don't want to smear the man, I want him to take responsibility for all the collateral damage he is causing, And here's a thought, he should try to fix the problem he helped create and maybe, pay back a few people and even consider turning money over to charity.

And I don't need to go into the "blackmail" thing again, read an earlier post. I didn't say I have knowledge of him blackmailing anyone. And yes, he lied for 4years but now he is "telling the truth," are you sure, how can you be so sure? Is it because his views coincide with yours?

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I suspect you do. I don't care who goes down, just so the right one does. And you can give your money to whoever you want. That isn't the point. The point is how much do you trust him? Me, not so much, but I am waiting to be convinced! I would have liked the story much more if Floyd, a talented cyclist confronted with doping, chose not to, and to be "good" and rode clean and triumphed over insurmountable odds and won the Tour, yada, yada, yada. Or, less exciting, but more relevant when confronted with doping refused, got the goods on everyone, and turned them in. Unfortunately, the combination of the two stories doesn’t work for me and apparently a lot of other people. Again, I am still waiting to be convinced that he’s the man who won’t cop out, when there’s danger all about!
You suspect I have a dog in this fight - well like a lot of your suspicions it is wrong.

So, dopers are 'bad' people and cheaters. You have done quite the 180 on your very first post on CN forums.
You were against going after those "bad" people and "cheats" as it was a 'waste of taxpayers money' and 'lets move on".

miloman said:
We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ. As if even he -- prosecutor and special agent Jeff Novitzky of the Food and Drug Administration -- can really make any sense of this mess. What's the cost to the US taxpayer? What will it solve? There's an old saying, "...do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? Certainly there is plenty of evidence to suggest that something questionable, if not illegal took place in the rank and file of the U. S. Postal/Discovery Team, but is it worth all the time, money and effort, so a few people can say I told you so?


Take a page from the Germans and Swiss and what they did with Ullrich. Make Lance pay a fine, don't admit any wrongdoing, use the money for a worthwhile cause like anti-doping control measures and let everyone return to their lives and operate their interests under the thin veil of plausible deniability. Greg LeMond is a great cyclist who deserved greater respect! Floyd Landis played the game and got the shaft! Lance Armstrong won 7 tours and presides over an eponymous cancer foundation. It may not be fair, but it's the way things are. History cannot be rewritten, it's but a snapshot in time. Lets move on, there are more pressing needs in the world today.

-- Miloman
Floyd has said if he comes in to a point where he can pay back people who contributed to the 'fairness Fund' that he will.
He is taking responsibility - he contacted the proper authorities about PED use - which is the correct thing to do.
 

Dr. Maserati

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miloman said:
It's Hearsay, you and I may believe it is all true, but, hearsay nonetheless! Until they fail an in or out of competition test, they are considered clean. Not my rules.
They're not your rules - indeed they're not anyones rules.

What test did Valverde fail? Basso? Scarponi?
 

flicker

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Floyd is going through a dark time of his life i imagine. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. The sounds he is making right now are not what i consider one who is still lying would be saying. I would expect a more polished approach rather than what i have seen.
nothing a couple of boilermakers can't remedy.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
They're not your rules - indeed they're not anyones rules.

What test did Valverde fail? Basso? Scarponi?
Correct me if I'm wrong -- and I know that you will -- wasn't it stored blood bags at a doping clinic and DNA tests proved it was their blood? I guess they failed the DNA tests. If they come up with the same evidence on other riders, I'm OK with them going down the same way!
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
You suspect I have a dog in this fight - well like a lot of your suspicions it is wrong.

So, dopers are 'bad' people and cheaters. You have done quite the 180 on your very first post on CN forums.
You were against going after those "bad" people and "cheats" as it was a 'waste of taxpayers money' and 'lets move on".



Floyd has said if he comes in to a point where he can pay back people who contributed to the 'fairness Fund' that he will.
He is taking responsibility - he contacted the proper authorities about PED use - which is the correct thing to do.
Wow, you really took the time to look all that up? Amazing! Still think it is a waste of money -- no change there; don't think we will get closure after the feds are finished -- no change there; think the best way to solve the problem is hit them in the wallet -- no change there; don't believe history can be rewritten --no change there; think both LeMond and Landis got the shaft -- no change there; think Lance won 7 TDFs -- no change there; think you're biased, but like debating with you -- no change there. And you can add to the list I don't trust Floyd will do the right thing, but I hope I'm wrong!
 

Dr. Maserati

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miloman said:
Wow, you really took the time to look all that up? Amazing! Still think it is a waste of money -- no change there; don't think we will get closure after the feds are finished -- no change there; think the best way to solve the problem is hit them in the wallet -- no change there; don't believe history can be rewritten --no change there; think both LeMond and Landis got the shaft -- no change there; think Lance won 7 TDFs -- no change there; think you're biased, but like debating with you -- no change there. And you can add to the list I don't trust Floyd will do the right thing, but I hope I'm wrong!
Ya - I am biased. I don't like doping in the sport, so anyone caught deserves what they get.
It doesn't mean I think they are evil or bad - as it is the pressure from the system that forces many to do what they thought they never would.

I don't know what you mean by "Floyd doing the right thing"?

If you want "cheaters' or "bad" people out of the sport then it should not matter how they are caught or when. We have seen how difficult it is to get caught through traditional testing, people bribing officals etc.
The statute of limitations within the sport is 8 years, Puerto & Festina were investigations from taxpayers money. History can be rewritten - ask Floyd.
 

buckwheat

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Dr. Maserati said:
Ya - I am biased. I don't like doping in the sport, so anyone caught deserves what they get.
It doesn't mean I think they are evil or bad - as it is the pressure from the system that forces many to do what they thought they never would.

I don't know what you mean by "Floyd doing the right thing"?

If you want "cheaters' or "bad" people out of the sport then it should not matter how they are caught or when. We have seen how difficult it is to get caught through traditional testing, people bribing officals etc.
The statute of limitations within the sport is 8 years, Puerto & Festina were investigations from taxpayers money. History can be rewritten - ask Floyd.
Yeah, but you have to ask, when does someone become part of the system?

I subscribe to the "banality of evil."

At some point though, you have to cut off the "I was just following orders" defense.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Ya - I am biased. I don't like doping in the sport, so anyone caught deserves what they get.
It doesn't mean I think they are evil or bad - as it is the pressure from the system that forces many to do what they thought they never would.

I don't know what you mean by "Floyd doing the right thing"?If you want "cheaters' or "bad" people out of the sport then it should not matter how they are caught or when. We have seen how difficult it is to get caught through traditional testing, people bribing officals etc.
The statute of limitations within the sport is 8 years, Puerto & Festina were investigations from taxpayers money. History can be rewritten - ask Floyd.
By the right thing I mean I hope with his knowledge and newly found conscience and whatever largess he may amass, he will do something for the benefit of those he cheated and hurt. I would be disappointed if he just replenished his depleted bank account.
 

Dr. Maserati

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buckwheat said:
Yeah, but you have to ask, when does someone become part of the system?

I subscribe to the "banality of evil."

At some point though, you have to cut off the "I was just following orders" defense.
They become part of the system when they dope as they are responsible for what they do.

But the system will not change by catching one doper at a time - but the menatlity of the dopers could change if the system was changed.
 

buckwheat

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Dr. Maserati said:
They become part of the system when they dope as they are responsible for what they do.

But the system will not change by catching one doper at a time - but the menatlity of the dopers could change if the system was changed.
I don't understand the first part, but I was trying to say that enforcers of the omerta and their accomplices are bordering on evil. I'm thinking of the Simeoni incident and the spitters in the peloton.

Cunego seemed to take it upon himself to ride clean so even under pressure and expectations it's possible.
 
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I have a question. If you are found guilty of doping and stripped of your titles, do you have to give the trophy and prize money back? Should Floyd, since he is being so honest, offer to pay back the money he won while cheating? Now that would impress me! Never heard him say anything about those people he cheated. Maybe he has taken the approach of "sticking it to the man" when it comes to races, racers and race promoters. I’d bet there are a few promoters who would love their purses back, not mention a few “clean” riders who would like their rightful share of prize money. Heck, I’d like the $24.99 back I paid for a book that I thought was non-fiction that turned out to be pure fiction. “Positively False” takes on a whole new connotation these days. $24.99 is a lot to pay for a bird cage liner.
 

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