Who was the 1st true, through EPO and/or blood transfusion enhanced TdF-Winner

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Who in your opinion was the 1st true, through EPO and/or blood transfusion enhanced TdF-Winner.
We are talking solely blood doping (EPO, transfusions). Not other doping methods.

With true I mean a rider who really depented on those kinds of blood manipulation, so to speak it was his "bread and butter" method to win one or more TdF.

I do not mean a TdF-Winner who may have experimented with blood manipulation at some stage of his career or in a GT he didn´t win, and than for example stayed away from this kind of doping*.

(Examples for riders i do not mean:
* = (1) Rider Y won his 1st TdF without a blood manipulation, but later he started taking EPO just to still keep up with the peloton in his waning career.
(2) Rider Z tried a blood transfusion in an olympic event, then stopped this practice for whatever reasons and later won a TdF without enhancing his performance through blood manipulation.)

Some might think why is there no Lance Armstrong (if we count his wins here as an exception), Jan Ullrich or Marco Pantani option. Simply, those riders couldn´t be the 1st ones who used blood manipulation when winning the TdF, because at least Bjarne Rijs did it before them, in 1996.

 

[martinvickers]

Who in your opinion was the 1st true, through EPO and/or blood transfusion enhanced TdF-Winner.
We are talking solely blood doping (EPO, transfusions). Not other doping methods.

With true I mean a rider who really depented on those kinds of blood manipulation, so to speak it was his "bread and butter" method to win one or more TdF.

I do not mean a TdF-Winner who may have experimented with blood manipulation at some stage of his career or in a GT he didn´t win, and than for example stayed away from this kind of doping*.

(Examples for riders i do not mean:
* = (1) Rider Y won his 1st TdF without a blood manipulation, but later he started taking EPO just to still keep up with the peloton in his waning career.
(2) Rider Z tried a blood transfusion in an olympic event, then stopped this practice for whatever reasons and later won a TdF without enhancing his performance through blood manipulation.)

Some might think why is there no Lance Armstrong (if we count his wins here as an exception), Jan Ullrich or Marco Pantani option. Simply, those riders couldn´t be the 1st ones who used blood manipulation when winning the TdF, because at least Bjarne Rijs did it before them, in 1996.

At a wild guess, Indurain.

 

[Parker]

Probably Indurain. But which year?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Indurain is a good bet. I´d say from hist first win on. So in 1991.

 

[ericfalcon]

Indurain is a good bet. I´d say from hist first win on. So in 1991.

agreed. 1991.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I wouldnt be surprised if Hinault/Zoetemelk were the first. But to say their carreer was dependant on it? No, cant say that.

This given Bernards' stance on blooddoping.

So, to be conservative, the answer to the poll is Gianni Bugno. Or maybe Visentini. Or Marco Giovannetti. Epo was used in the Spanish team of Matthieu Hermans in 1989, do we think the other Spanish teams didnt have it? Grinnnn.

 

[martinvickers]

I wouldnt be surprised if Hinault/Zoetemelk were the first. But to say their carreer was dependant on it? No, cant say that.

This given Bernards' stance on blooddoping.

So, to be conservative, the answer to the poll is Gianni Bugno. Or maybe Visentini. Or Marco Giovannetti. Epo was used in the Spanish team of Matthieu Hermans in 1989, do we think the other Spanish teams didnt have it? Grinnnn.

To be fair, the poll did say TdF winner, not GT winner.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Indurain was comical. Like the full doped horse in the "The Electric Horseman".
A truly bloody enhanced racehorse who destroyed the competition in a bizarre way, like for example that "extra-terrestrial" 3 mins margin ITT-Win in 1992.

Even if some would say he was one of/or the greatest of all time (biggest heart, best VO2max, greatest cadence, whatever), it´s unexplainable how he could beat fully blood doped Ferrari client Rominger or "Mr. 64%" Rijs without doing the same what they did.

If he would have been clean(ish), thus doped only "old school style", and his closest competition would have waived the opportunity to blood dope too, he would have won his TdF´s not by some minutes but by at least 30 minutes. No such talent (not even Merckx) ever existed when tours didn´t go extra long like in the early days.
His above mentioned ITT win would not have been 3 minutes (which is already absurd) but like 10 minutes if his closest competition were clean(ish).

And keep in mind he was one of those late defenders of Armstrong, when his house of cards was already collapsing.

All that makes the celebration of Induarain at this years last TdF stage the most bizzare moment. Hypocrisy in pure form...

 

[TheGame]

Indurain certainly.
Hinualt possible.
Delgado likely.
Roche highly probable.

Gone Delgado, but Roche is probably the earliest. But then again, who knows, Hinault might have done, Fignon may have done, Lemond who has never taken drugs might have done.

Not unrealistic to think Zoet might have done, blood doping was certainly taking place in 1980, if we look at the 84 Olympics where up to half the US team were blood doping (and by then it was widespread certainly in Eastern Europe) its not beyond the realms of possibility that Zoetemelk wasn't. And we know in 84 Moser was blood doping.

Hell, there is every chance that Eddy Merckx was blood doping in the seventies.

As for EPO. Riis was the first true "Donkey to Racehorse", at least those before him had some talent.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

To be fair, the poll did say TdF winner, not GT winner.

Sorry Martin, but for some people cycling is more than the Tour de Bore.

Did I mention Roche in my previous post? 1987 was pretty magical. But, also, like Indurain not fitting the topic title. Indurain also won l'Avenir, no donk.

 

[pmcg76]

I wouldnt be surprised if Hinault/Zoetemelk were the first. But to say their carreer was dependant on it? No, cant say that.

This given Bernards' stance on blooddoping.

So, to be conservative, the answer to the poll is Gianni Bugno. Or maybe Visentini. Or Marco Giovannetti. Epo was used in the Spanish team of Matthieu Hermans in 1989, do we think the other Spanish teams didnt have it? Grinnnn.

If Spanish teams were blood doping, surely they would have been miles in front of everyone else. Clearly it was not being done effectively if it were indeed being used. Caja Rural(Herman's team) hardly set the world alight in 1989.

On Marco Giovanetti, I think the other teams screwed up more than anything, he had plenty of Top 10s in the Giro prior to the Vuelta in 90 but the main contenders let him get away in a big break which gained a substantial lead. Banesto had Julian Gorospe in the same break but as usual, Gorospe floundered once given responsibility.

That's not to say he didn't get on the EPO train, just that I believe his Vuelta win was more down to the errors of other teams(Banesto and ONCE primarily). You wouldn't give someone like Pozzovivo a handy lead in a GT nowadays.

 

[pmcg76]

Sorry Martin, but for some people cycling is more than the Tour de Bore.

Did I mention Roche in my previous post? 1987 was pretty magical. But, also, like Indurain not fitting the topic title. Indurain also won l'Avenir, no donk.

Roche did have a magical 87 but I don't think it was blood down to blood doping. After all Roche was 3rd in the 85 Tour behind Hinault and LeMond who of course were not around in 87 so logically he was next in line. He didn't really beat any big names at the Giro, Robert Millar and a very young Breukink!!!

The worlds was more down to tactics and dumb luck than anything, he owes Kelly big-time for playing the game behind. Tbh, Roche was more a master tactician than a super strong rider though he did screw up at L-B-L that year. To come from nowhere in 86 to top dog in 87 to nobody again in 88 doesn't make sense doping wise, why only blood dope that one season and why stop when you were so successful?? Again not claiming Roche didn't dope or wasn't doping in 87 but the pattern just seems strange for blood doping.

 

[IndianCyclist]

So, to be conservative, the answer to the poll is Gianni Bugno. Or maybe Visentini. Or Marco Giovannetti. Epo was used in the Spanish team of Matthieu Hermans in 1989, do we think the other Spanish teams didnt have it? Grinnnn.

Blood doping became popular after the EPO test but the health risk was greater in the 90s. 1990 was probably the first time that EPO was used in large scale. So I think it was mostly likely Bugno and then Indurain

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Voting Roche is more speculation whereas voting for Indurain is more definite.

We know Conconi had refined use of transfusions to help Moser break the world hour record in 84. We know Roche and Conconi worked together in 93 and Roche used EPO.

We don't know for definite that Roche and Conconi worked together in 1987.

Based off his results I find it very likely he was using transfusions but not 100%

 

[pmcg76]

Voting Roche is more speculation whereas voting for Indurain is more definite.

We know Conconi had refined use of transfusions to help Moser break the world hour record in 84. We know Roche and Conconi worked together in 93 and Roche used EPO.

We don't know for definite that Roche and Conconi worked together in 1987.

Based off his results I find it very likely he was using transfusions but not 100%

Do you think Roche was blood doping in 85 as his early season results are just as good as 87?? The main difference between 85 and 87 is the Romandy/Giro period, other than that the results are very similar.

Whilst 87 was an amazing season for Roche, he had already achieved results in the races he preformed well in. I don't see any major jumps, just more consistency. I think what makes 87 so noteworthy is that 86 and 88 were so poor due to injuries.

Also you point to Conconi preparing Moser which was for a single one-off event, Roche was for an entire season and as we have already discussed, transporting blood around for long periods was not really viable in that era. Also there is no noteworthy downtime in performance when blood might have been withdrawn or else Roche was using another person's blood.

 

[hrotha]

I'd say Indurain and 1992. If he already used EPO in 1991 (which is very possible), then by 1992 he was certainly following a more scientific program.

 

[martinvickers]

Sorry Martin, but for some people cycling is more than the Tour de Bore.

TRue. But the TdF was the question actually asked.

You don't get many marks in an Englsh Lit exam on The Tempest by saying "there's more to lit than shakespeare", however right that may be,and writing an essay on the jew of malta.

Did I mention Roche in my previous post? 1987 was pretty magical. But, also, like Indurain not fitting the topic title. Indurain also won l'Avenir, no donk.

I just don't know with Roche. IF he was on EPO in 87, as opposed to later, he was a VERY early adopter. I've no real doubt he doped, only on what exactly. But I wouldn't be shocked, for all that.

 

[jens_attacks]

I'd say Indurain and 1992. If he already used EPO in 1991 (which is very possible), then by 1992 he was certainly following a more scientific program.

my opinion too. but certainly in 1992 he was not prepared at after '93 level. he couldn't walk up the stairs in the hotel after sestrieres raid by chiappucci. he was dead. had to be helped by the teammates. gasping for air on all the climbs. all of those ridden at 80's level until 1993.

also in my opinion the stories about bugno and il diablo and their doc keeping the kerosene only for themselves for whole 3 years is just a myth.

so blood transfusion>>>>god knows, probably back to great eddy
kerosene>>>>big mig '92. but just like lance said, not much

blood tranfusions without magical enrichment didnt't seem to make them climb like angels though

you really don't have to look afte climbing times, but style on the bike. in 1993....climbing mouth closed appear and also no one seem to struggle on the bike, bouncing the shoulders disappeared

 

[Bicycle]

EPO - Indurain

but cyclists have probably been tampering with their own blood since the 70s without quite having the magic effect of EPO

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Indurain certainly.
Hinualt possible.
Delgado likely.
Roche highly probable.

Gone Delgado, but Roche is probably the earliest. But then again, who knows, Hinault might have done, Fignon may have done, Lemond who has never taken drugs might have done.

Not unrealistic to think Zoet might have done, blood doping was certainly taking place in 1980, if we look at the 84 Olympics where up to half the US team were blood doping (and by then it was widespread certainly in Eastern Europe) its not beyond the realms of possibility that Zoetemelk wasn't. And we know in 84 Moser was blood doping.

Hell, there is every chance that Eddy Merckx was blood doping in the seventies.

As for EPO. Riis was the first true "Donkey to Racehorse", at least those before him had some talent.

Good summary.

But who knows if "Donkey to Racehorse" isn´t also true for those who came before Indurain. Certainly Cyrille Guimard had a big enough budget for Fignon and/or Hinault. Renault had a dominant team as Sky now has or Postal had some ten+ years ago. Lemond was rich enough (so was Tapie). I mean if they all knew that blood transfusions bring you 3% (like TH described in his book), and they could afford to do it, they certainly would have.

For me nothing is certain anymore, since last year it became known that blood doping in the TdF took place even in the 80s (see Gert-Jan Theunisse and Steven Rooks).
Yeah, and Zootemelk got one in the 1976 tour. May he did so too when he won the TdF in 1980.

 

[Le breton]

I wouldnt be surprised if Hinault/Zoetemelk were the first. But to say their carreer was dependant on it? No, cant say that.

This given Bernards' stance on blooddoping.

So, to be conservative, the answer to the poll is Gianni Bugno. Or maybe Visentini. Or Marco Giovannetti. Epo was used in the Spanish team of Matthieu Hermans in 1989, do we think the other Spanish teams didnt have it? Grinnnn.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/a-history-on-the-use-of-blood-transfusions-in-cycling

In 1977 Joop Zoetemelk confessed that, during the previous years' Tour, when he was a member of Raymond Poulidor's Gan-Mercier team, he had undergone transfusions on the advice of his doctor, Henri Fucs. Zoetemelk's 1976 Tour saw him winning a couple of stages in the Alps – including Alpe d'Huez – as well as the stage to the Puy de Dôme and overall he finished second, four minutes something down on the winner, Lucien van Impe.

No reason to think he did again later.
I voted Indurain, but Roche 1987 raises questions.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I voted Indurain

I will come back with the Zoetemelk thing, and the Henri Fuchs thing, lots of sources there.

Also PCM76 will get answers on his good questions/replies.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

In 1977 Joop Zoetemelk confessed that, during the previous years' Tour, when he was a member of Raymond Poulidor's Gan-Mercier team, he had undergone transfusions

I will come back with the Zoetemelk thing, and the Henri Fuchs thing, lots of sources there.

I wonder why Zoetemelk hasn´t got any votes. The more i read and think of him, he very well might have been the 1st ever rider to depend on blood doping to win a TdF.

 

[D-Queued]

I wonder why Zoetemelk hasn´t got any votes. The more i read and think of him, he very well might have been the 1st ever rider to depend on blood doping to win a TdF.

Possible.

One of the challenges is trying to figure out the race schedule and results pre-EPO. Blood-doping pre-EPO would require someone else's blood (very risky), or recovery times during race season following extraction(s).

It wasn't easy to apply blood-doping, pre-EPO, to stage races especially if you were racing constantly.

Dave.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

(1) Blood-doping pre-EPO would require someone else's blood (very risky), (2) or recovery times during race season following extraction(s).

(1) I don´t get that. Why should it have not been possible to re-infuse own blood? And, we all know that riders take all risks to get an advantage. Gianetti comes to mind for example...
(2) That one i agree. TBH, i didn´t follow his results before and after the TdF´s. May there is something hidden which would clear things up.