Who was the 1st true, through EPO and/or blood transfusion enhanced TdF-Winner

[Netserk]

Possible.

One of the challenges is trying to figure out the race schedule and results pre-EPO. Blood-doping pre-EPO would require someone else's blood (very risky), or recovery times during race season following extraction(s).

It wasn't easy to apply blood-doping, pre-EPO, to stage races especially if you were racing constantly.

Dave.

Why risky? As long as they have the same blood type or the donor has type-0, I can't see why it would be riskier than with your own blood

 

[Le breton]

Why risky? As long as they have the same blood type or the donor has type-0, I can't see why it would be riskier than with your own blood

It would have been risky in the days of HIV, that's what he must be referring to.

 

[hrotha]

(1) I don´t get that. Why should it have not been possible to re-infuse own blood? And, we all know that riders take all risks to get an advantage. Gianetti comes to mind for example...

It would have been possible, but very inconvenient, since you wouldn't have EPO to boost the creation of new blood cells and you would be severely weakened as a result. Combine that with packed racing calendars (people were expected to race the whole season) and the short expiration date of blood kept with the technology available at the time, and it's simply not feasible as a normal procedure, except maybe for very specific events.

Incidentally, did Moser and the American riders at the Olympics use their own blood?

 

[red_flanders]

Pretty clear that Indurain was the first EPO-fueled Tour winner.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-indurain-and-banesto-were-conconi-clients

 

[proffate]

Eddy Merckx.

 

[Tonton]

Agree with you on all points, with one thing to add to "hypocrisy in pure form". It's calculated hypocrisy. ASO was careful not to set the ITT in Bergerac on the exact same course. Regardless of variables (wind, weather, date), it was a lose-lose: either Tony Martin and Fabian (The Black Album) clock two minutes slower than in '94 and Big Mig is definitely exposed, or Froome beats Big Mig's time by two minutes and he gets exposed. So I suppose you're right: hypocrisy in pure form...

 

[Escarabajo]

Indurain was comical. Like the full doped horse in the "The Electric Horseman".
A truly bloody enhanced racehorse who destroyed the competition in a bizarre way, like for example that "extra-terrestrial" 3 mins margin ITT-Win in 1992.

...

This is the first true clear indication that something else was going on.

It is funny that he plays idiot with all these doping controversies.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Agree with you on all points, with one thing to add to "hypocrisy in pure form". It's calculated hypocrisy. ASO was careful not to set the ITT in Bergerac on the exact same course. Regardless of variables (wind, weather, date), it was a lose-lose: either Tony Martin and Fabian (The Black Album) clock two minutes slower than in '94 and Big Mig is definitely exposed, or Froome beats Big Mig's time by two minutes and he gets exposed. So I suppose you're right: hypocrisy in pure form...

A good point. I think they all know what was going on back then. Not only Verbruggen and the UCI, but the ASO too.

This is the first true clear indication that something else was going on.

It is funny that he plays idiot with all these doping controversies.

... and then came Rijs. AFIR, he (Rijs) gave a press conference or interview saying something like this "i know how i can beat him (Indurain) next year (in 1996)". Yeah we all know since THs book: If Indurain does mega EPO & "extra" blood, i´ll counter with even more EPO (going all the way to "Mr 64%"), and more transfusions. It was an absurd arms race in the early 90s at least. Not just in the Armstrong era or now with the so-called Skyborgs.

 

[Big Doopie]

indurain in 1991.

 

[D-Queued]

It would have been risky in the days of HIV, that's what he must be referring to.

No, I wasn't referring to HIV. There is a lot more to transfusions than A, AB, B, or O type. And, a lot more than RH Positive or Negative as well.

I posted a lot about this in the past, and am not going to bother doing it again here.

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

(1) I don´t get that. Why should it have not been possible to re-infuse own blood? And, we all know that riders take all risks to get an advantage. Gianetti comes to mind for example...
(2) That one i agree. TBH, i didn´t follow his results before and after the TdF´s. May there is something hidden which would clear things up.

It is absolutely possible to re-infuse with your own blood.

Without the benefit of EPO, however, you have to allow for the recovery following extractions.

In the timeframes we are talking about, you also needed the technology to have successful long-term storage of your blood. Otherwise, the best you might be able to do is extract and re-infuse one unit.

That might be helpful for a one-day event, but it isn't enough for a whole Tour.

Plus, your pre-race training is all messed up due to the recovery from the extraction.

Dave.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Agree with you on all points, with one thing to add to "hypocrisy in pure form". It's calculated hypocrisy. ASO was careful not to set the ITT in Bergerac on the exact same course. Regardless of variables (wind, weather, date), it was a lose-lose: either Tony Martin and Fabian (The Black Album) clock two minutes slower than in '94 and Big Mig is definitely exposed, or Froome beats Big Mig's time by two minutes and he gets exposed. So I suppose you're right: hypocrisy in pure form...

Wind plays a major part in the timings but still it would raise suspicions which would not be good for ASO. But I still think it will, based on speeds.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

It is absolutely possible to re-infuse with your own blood.

Without the benefit of EPO, however, you have to allow for the recovery following extractions.

In the timeframes we are talking about, you also needed the technology to have successful long-term storage of your blood. Otherwise, the best you might be able to do is extract and re-infuse one unit.

That might be helpful for a one-day event, but it isn't enough for a whole Tour.

Plus, your pre-race training is all messed up due to the recovery from the extraction.

Dave.

Dutch newspaper article 1985, 12 januari.
http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:010962170:mpeg21:p021:a0231/layout/fullscreen

Blood doping By PETER OUWERKERK

Jelle Nijdam can rest assured. His place in the top eight at the Olympic pursuit tournament in Los Angeles Is come again , following the revelations about the preparation "of his American opponents . In a different perspective
Its superior American opponents were not only in terms of material in the
21st century to linger , but - as to the messages - they obviously had a few laps in the lead medical supervision atmosphere .
Blood doping , as has a conscientious American sports doctor ( Thomas Dickson ) drop out of his mouth was at the base of the medal successes . Blood doping , while the supervisors Nijdam cs not much more ( dare / want to) go beyond blood tests for acidity.
It is the reality of the Dutch ( amateur ) sport. In West Germany has already swimmers ' pumped ' order by lighter to cleave the water - in the Netherlands allowed young children now prefer to slip into the tropical heat baths than overly intensive training. Here one athlete after another disappears into injury basket, abroad very often prevents the hormone injection similar misery . In the Netherlands Feyenoord dominated the sports news a week with a malicious rumor - ephedrine in the U.S., is thirty percent of the professional athletes addicted to some hallucinogenic / stimulant . In the Netherlands, a story about positive before controls , 86 cases in America . It's just where you put your topsportieve limits . Blood doping Is by no means a new phenomenon in the performance spiral. It brings risks of infections with it , but it guarantees to the other side almost certainly greater endurance . With eight percent , gives one investigation , with up to a quarter , says scientist number two . The principle is simple: when the athlete before the crucial match drained six to eight weeks of blood , it is frozen at -80 degrees C , and transfused again shortly before H-Hour . However alleem the red blood cells , which feed the muscles with oxygen . In combination with a stay in the mountains , where as a natural reaction even more red blood cells are grown , the blood doping provides an almost ideal condition . The duration of the performance increase is also fairly short , because the body's excess of ' red blood ' automatically breaks down again . The ' up' not at all. Though the Finnish athlete Lasse Viren include that method Olympic gold at 5 and 10 km from 1976 owe . And all would be compatriot Marja - Liise Haemaelainen , three gold and one silver have seized . Called to the autotransfusion on the Olympic cross-country skiing in Sarajevo , A German doctor ( Pfeifer ) from
the Olympic Village , " Me too much blood-stained towels from the Finnish
Self we made a confirmation of its success along with Joop Zoetemelk . After a period of difficult recovery on his fall in 1974
( rock damaged leg ) , his Parisian doctor Fuchs once taken him on the Tour rest day in Divonne - les- Bains in progress . Zoetemelk faced with a shortage of red blood cells .
"He has once again done a test with me , and finally it was blood at normal levels. I can again
punch . " The day after the treatment Zoetemelk won on Alpe d' Huez , the same tour he triumphed in two more mountain stages : Montenevrde and Puy de Dome.
And who sometimes unannounced , or by mistake a room of another random Tour rider stepped , ran the risk heartily of teworden off curses . Because people with transfusion was busy at the time, and no snoopers would please . We remember Felice Gimondi , Tour 1975 , Merlin - Plage .

Blood doping is done . at
pros to amateurs . state
not on the banned list . The International Olympic Committee would like to :
' because it is against the ethics of sport . " But it is incredibly difficult to prove. The waterdichtheidsfacor is shaky - because it happens body 's own substances, and control it very costly .
The U.S. Olympic Committee and the U.S. cycling federation announced the revelations to investigate , and
short term with a rash ♦ e come . But certainly now that Jelle Nijdam no line comes with its results of research closer to the podium .
At the doping symposium
of the National Institute for Sports Health pleaded an expert recently rebellious to set up a special do-
ping class . You 're right world records for high and lowland slopes , hand and
electronically clocked times , 25 - and 50 -meter relays.
A provocative sound , with the enduring question: what are the consequences of such a distinction ? If there are
someone in the ' doping class ' is checked , and it turns out "negative" , he / she must therefore be punished ? Is about him / her also the publicity of shame , the judgment for not - have caught ?
Gold medals , Olympic diplomas or an iron '
sport assess his proper merits , in the context of what the competition is venturing , with the
complicated day .

Pretty ****tty translation but readable.
http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:010959277:mpeg21:p018:a0252/layout/fullscreen
''ANOTHER TRANSFUSION FOR ZOETEMELK''

Two transfusions for Zoetemelk in 1976, at least.

Looks like the technology was there already. No epo needed there.

1976:
http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:010460592:mpeg21:p006:a0067/layout/fullscreen

packed cells
The methods of the "Packedcells," the so-called blood doping, is introduced years ago by the Swedish doctor Ecklund and further developed in Eastern Europe.
A few weeks before a competition is an athlete a liter of blood is drawn and it is frozen. Investigations have shown that no attenuation phenomena of action in a well-trained body during this period. On the contrary, the body adapts to the new situation. A few days before the event takes place transfusion. The resulting oxygen-enhancing effect, the athlete is able to extra high efforts.

1972:

Finnish athlete : blood doping at games of 1972
HELSINKI - Former steeplechase runner Mikko Ala - Leppilampi says that during the 1972 Olympics blood doping is applied to him . His story is confirmed by Professor Pekka Peltokallio , who was then in Munich team doctor of the Finns . If according to Peltokallio - Leppilampi was the only athlete who was treated. Such a manner The former athlete himself had stated that at that time still others were provided . Unnaturally of new blood The now 38 -year-old Mikko Ala - Leppilampi ended in Munich as tenth in the 3000 meter steeplechase . The suspicion of blood doping was first expressed in the 1976 Olympics , when the Finn Lasse Viren both 5000 and 10.00 meters won . When blood doping is an athlete an amount of blood drained , the two weeks stored . In the meantime, the body makes the loss. Thereafter, the red blood cells is inserted again , so that the capacity for oxygen increases. Laboratory tests have shown that as the performance would increase by up to eight percent. Finnish athletes and officials have so far always denied that this method has been used .

http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:010570432:mpeg21:p017:a0283/layout/fullscreen

1980:
http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:010593757:mpeg21:p008:a0361/layout/fullscreen

Fin Maanika admits doping
HELSINKI - The Finnish long-distance runner Kaarlo Maanika has known for blood doping during the games to have won two Olympic medals in Moscow in 1980. Maanika won silver and bronze in ten in five kilometers He stated that he could be. Prepared for the first world championships in Helsinki last week by the same medical team in the same way as for Moscow He has refused. "For Moscow, I wanted to try it once. Then no more. "

He did it only once

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Great summary "Fearless Greg Lemond", and pretty depressing too. Until last year I (like many others here) thought blood doping was not very common in sports until the Rooks/Theunisse story made the headlines. Until then i tought only some freak guys tried blood doping in the 70/80s (like Moser, Cova, Viren and the 84-US cycling team).
But the more old stories come out, it seems it was a pretty common practise.
Nowadays I guess Peter Winnen never made it back to a TdF podium spot, because blood experiments seem to have spread all over the peloton by at least 1984.
Winnen might be the last true hero...

 

[pmcg76]

Great summary "Fearless Greg Lemond", and pretty depressing too. Until last year I (like many others here) thought blood doping was not very common in sports until the Rooks/Theunisse story made the headlines. Until then i tought only some freak guys tried blood doping in the 70/80s (like Moser, Cova, Viren and the 84-US cycling team).
But the more old stories come out, it seems it was a pretty common practise.
Nowadays I guess Peter Winnen never made it back to a TdF podium spot, because blood experiments seem to have spread all over the peloton by at least 1984.
Winnen might be the last true hero...

Well that would go against everything Winnen himself said, Winnen is on record as saying it was the the start of the 90s when everything changed wrt blood doping, EPO. Panasnoic were regarded as the most well organised team in the 80s so they would have been at the forefront of any new doping techniques.

Also remember that Kimmage rode from 86-90 as a pro, blood doping is never mentioned in Rough Ride(1st edition), not even once.

Fignon, Parkin, Riis, Peiper never mentioned blood doping either so to now claim blood doping was widespread is wide of the mark.

 

[GuyIncognito]

But who knows if "Donkey to Racehorse" isn´t also true for those who came before Indurain. Certainly Cyrille Guimard had a big enough budget for Fignon and/or Hinault. Renault had a dominant team as Sky now has or Postal had some ten+ years ago. Lemond was rich enough (so was Tapie). I mean if they all knew that blood transfusions bring you 3% (like TH described in his book), and they could afford to do it, they certainly would have.

In the late 80s Hinault did an interview where he talked at length about blood doping and did his best to sound knowledgeable and wise. It's been posted on this forum before.
It's very clear from that interview that he doesn't have the slightest frigging clue how blood doping works. Typical ignorant trying to sound smart and failing.

I voted Indurain but it's impossible to know how much the transfusions helped Zoetemelk

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Well that would go against everything Winnen himself said, Winnen is on record as saying it was the the start of the 90s...

Fignon, Parkin, Riis, Peiper never mentioned blood doping either so to now claim blood doping was widespread is wide of the mark.

I know about that Winnen quotes. That´s why i still trusted the results of the 80s (until late last year).

I mean Rooks also didn´t mention blood transfusions in his book ("only" EPO). Rijs didn´t mention them AFIK in his book. And yet they did it.
Maybe the riders are too much ashamed to lift their last own, their dirtiest secret.

Anyway, "widespread" is a little far fetched. But nowadays i am convinced that at least some TdF top guns experimented with blood transfusions even in the mid 80s.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

In the late 80s Hinault did an interview where he talked at length about blood doping and did his best to sound knowledgeable and wise. It's been posted on this forum before.
It's very clear from that interview that he doesn't have the slightest frigging clue how blood doping works. Typical ignorant trying to sound smart and failing.

I voted Indurain but it's impossible to know how much the transfusions helped Zoetemelk

To be fair Roche, knew nothing about it as well, he's claimed that his Haematocrit was highest during the TDF, didn't mean he didn't use EPO though (and probably blood doped).

 

[IrishBias]

I missed it and the WADA site is too complex

When did blood doping become illegal (for the TDF)?

 

[Robert21]

cyclists have probably been tampering with their own blood since the 70s without quite having the magic effect of EPO

Which is not surprising, as until the development of high glycerol freezing techniques autologous blood doping was more likely to harm your performance than aid it. This is because the stored cells would die off faster than your body could replace the shortfall. Also, it would not be possible to keep blood for long periods, so allowing it to be taken during the 'off season'. Using someone else's blood could still have worked though.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/23/2/84.full.pdf

 

[Benotti69]

When did blood doping become illegal (for the TDF)?

So if it is not on the banned UCI list it is not cheating?

Roche was a cheat. The Italian courts proved that.

 

[FitSsikS]

Part of a newspaper article from from back in '76':



Source: Eugene Register-Guard July 30, 1976

 

[Netserk]

Great find!

 

[del1962]

Part of a newspaper article from from back in '76':



Source: Eugene Register-Guard July 30, 1976

I remember back in the early eighties talk of Viren's bloodoping, though it wasn't banned until some time in the mid eighties.

Over what period of effort would blood doping have an effect, 35 seconds (i.e. in a 400m running race), one minute, two minutes, 4 minutes .......

 

[Briant_Gumble]

I can't believe Lance still has 8 different interns or one intern with 8 different e-mail addresses who voted for Lemond.