Who was the 1st true, through EPO and/or blood transfusion enhanced TdF-Winner

[Le breton]

I can't believe Lance still has 8 different interns or one intern with 8 different e-mail addresses who voted for Lemond.

1989
If Fignon had been 9 seconds faster, how many votes would he have gotten?

 

[Echoes]

Bore de France, Bore de France, always Bore de France...

CN forum is constantly hitting the bottom and keeps digging ... as if doping on other races does not count.

What a crap forum !

 

[FitSsikS]

Bore de France, Bore de France, always Bore de France...

CN forum is constantly hitting the bottom and keeps digging ... as if doping on other races does not count.

Well I suppose the poster could have asked:

"Who in your opinion was the first true EPO and/or blood transfusing Grand Tour -Winner?"

 

[Benotti69]

Well I suppose the poster could have asked:

"Who in your opinion was the first true EPO and/or blood transfusing Grand Tour -Winner?"

Yep and nothing to stop posters from starting 'interesting' threads that are not boring!

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Well I suppose the poster could have asked:

"Who in your opinion was the first true EPO and/or blood transfusing Grand Tour -Winner?"

I could have, but I didn´t, and this with a reason.
Here is why:
I asked for the first TdF winner, b/c (if some people like it or not) it´s the most popular race. Thus the winners names are more common for the "average" observer than those of other GT´s or 1-Day-Races. Especially when we talk about the old timeswhen when some/many of us weren´t even born. And not everyone is a "veteran" like us 1.000+ posters. I didn´t want to have the results of the poll "spoiled" by such circumstances.

 

[FitSsikS]

What's in a name?

 

[Franklin]

as we have already discussed, transporting blood around for long periods was not really viable in that era. A

That must have been a very interesting discussion considering we know for a fact that just a year later PDM was blood doping

But really, blood transfusions became standard practice in world war 1. And conditions back then surely were worse than the TdF in the seventies.

 

[Netserk]

That must have been a very interesting discussion considering we know for a fact that just a year later PDM was blood doping

But really, blood transfusions became standard practice in world war 1. And conditions back then surely were worse than the TdF in the seventies.

And you really don't need much hi-tech stuff to do a direct homologous transfusion. It should surely be possible to do (and with the right donor) for a team in the 70's and 80's.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

And you really don't need much hi-tech stuff to do a direct homologous transfusion. It should surely be possible to do (and with the right donor) for a team in the 70's and 80's.

Or National Federation.

 

[pmcg76]

That must have been a very interesting discussion considering we know for a fact that just a year later PDM was blood doping

But really, blood transfusions became standard practice in world war 1. And conditions back then surely were worse than the TdF in the seventies.

I meant over a 3 week period. If I am not mistaken, there is only one entry for blood on the PDM diaries and for 3 riders only.

I just find this notion that blood doping being widespread or even common in the 80s as strange. As I pointed out previously, if it were common, how come Kimmage never got wind of it when he was riding unless people are saying Kimmage was deliberately hiding the fact.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Bore de France, Bore de France, always Bore de France...

CN forum is constantly hitting the bottom and keeps digging ... as if doping on other races does not count.

What a crap forum !

Well I suppose the poster could have asked:

"Who in your opinion was the first true EPO and/or blood transfusing Grand Tour -Winner?"

Not sure why there needs to be a distinction between TdF and other races - but the subject of first time EPO or Blood booster users has been covered plenty of times, off the top of my head:
EPO users in the peloton?.
"Victims' of EPO" vs. "EPO wonders".
"clean", "suspect", "miraculous" and "mutants".

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Not sure why there needs to be a distinction between TdF and other races

Hi Doc,

1st of all b/c the TdF is the race for the riders. When someone want to cross the line, i assume, the tour is the choice for maximum gain when risking doping. And when riders tried new methods, the tour was the point to test it on a regular basis b/c it´s so demanding. As Bruyneel said "The tour brings out the best and worst of mankind".
And personally i wanted to find out what people think who was the 1st unworthy tour winner.

2nd, the other "blood" threads (there was one about transfusions which you didn´t link, and i can´t find) are "outdated" since the Rooks/Theunisse news hit the headlines past year. In this particular "transfusion" thread there was common consensus that transfusions weren´t used in the 80´s... we all were wrong.

 

[Franklin]

I meant over a 3 week period. If I am not mistaken, there is only one entry for blood on the PDM diaries and for 3 riders only.

I just find this notion that blood doping being widespread or even common in the 80s as strange. As I pointed out previously, if it were common, how come Kimmage never got wind of it when he was riding unless people are saying Kimmage was deliberately hiding the fact.

Blood doping was not outlawed until 1986, but it started in the seventies. By 1980 it was widely discussed in the media. Do you think that junkies pur sang (aka pro-cyclists) would have taken a backseat when the media already portrayed all the information?

We will never know, but personally I'm convinced it was standard practice starting in the seventies.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Hi Doc,

1st of all b/c the TdF is the race for the riders. When someone want to cross the line, i assume, the tour is the choice for maximum gain when risking doping. And when riders tried new methods, the tour was the point to test it on a regular basis b/c it´s so demanding. As Bruyneel said "The tour brings out the best and worst of mankind".
And personally i wanted to find out what people think who was the 1st unworthy tour winner.

2nd, the other "blood" threads (there was one about transfusions which you didn´t link, and i can´t find) are "outdated" since the Rooks/Theunisse news hit the headlines past year. In this particular "transfusion" thread there was common consensus that transfusions weren´t used in the 80´s... we all were wrong.

Just to be clear, I wasn't criticising this thread - to me its a valid question that compliments other threads, and I only linked to threads I remembered, there are way more than the few I remembered.

But - the highlighted I don't agree with, if a new method are product comes out it will be used very quickly. The whole point is to gain an advantage on the rest.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

(1) Just to be clear, I wasn't criticising this thread - to me its a valid question that compliments other threads, and I only linked to threads I remembered, there are way more than the few I remembered.

(2) But - the highlighted I don't agree with, if a new method are product comes out it will be used very quickly. The whole point is to gain an advantage on the rest.

(1) But the one you didn´t link (about transfusions) was the best. A lot of links and history of blood doping... But in the end we all were fooled when Rooks/theunisse happend. No one thought they already did it in the 80s.

(2) Ok, agree. But blood doping gives you the advantage in the competiton.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

(1) But the one you didn´t link (about transfusions) was the best. A lot of links and history of blood doping... But in the end we all were fooled when Rooks/theunisse happend. No one thought they already did it in the 80s.

(2) Ok, agree. But blood doping gives you the advantage in the competiton.

Agree, it was the authoritive thread on blood doping, (I cannot remember the name of the thread though) - I also don't see why it would be outdated because newer information comes out, for me that actually makes it better.

A resource that is updated makes it easier to check things, otherwise it comes back to repeating the same arguments.

 

[pmcg76]

Blood doping was not outlawed until 1986, but it started in the seventies. By 1980 it was widely discussed in the media. Do you think that junkies pur sang (aka pro-cyclists) would have taken a backseat when the media already portrayed all the information?

We will never know, but personally I'm convinced it was standard practice starting in the seventies.

So why had Kimmage never apparently heard of it's use in the pro ranks?? Pro from 86-89, nada. Something that commonly used would not have stayed a secret among the pro ranks.

Numerous riders have talked about the pre EPO era, of the top of my head Kimmage, Joe Parkin, Laurent Fignon, Allan Peiper, Peter Winnen, we also have two posters here who raced in the late 80s/90s. None of them mentioned blood doping. Either they are all in on some giant cover up or it just wasn't that commonly used.

 

[Netserk]

Maybe it was commonly used amongst star riders?

 

[pmcg76]

Maybe it was commonly used amongst star riders?

Such as??? I think Fignon was a star rider was he not.

You think the stars were doping with regular PEDs in front of team-mates but hiding blood doping??

Its seems that only Rooks and Theunisse received blood bags at PDM so maybe that is true but I think there is some clarification needed on what was going on in 88.

 

[Netserk]

Such as??? I think Fignon was a star rider was he not.

You think the stars were doping with regular PEDs in front of team-mates but hiding blood doping??

Its seems that only Rooks and Theunisse received blood bags at PDM so maybe that is true but I think there is some clarification needed on what was going on in 88.

Yeah, and?

According to Tyler, Riis also used transfusions, yet he didn't mention it when he fessed, so why couldn't the same be the case for Fignon?

 

[pmcg76]

Yeah, and?

According to Tyler, Riis also used transfusions, yet he didn't mention it when he fessed, so why couldn't the same be the case for Fignon?

Perhaps because Fignon was not involved in the sport when he admitted and was on his death bed. But of course what about Fignon 85-88, clearly blood doping He and LeMond were team-mates before that, another guy I never heard mention blood doping during his time.

 

[poupou]

Yeah, and?

According to Tyler, Riis also used transfusions, yet he didn't mention it when he fessed, so why couldn't the same be the case for Fignon?

At the moment, Riis had no interest to speak of blood transfusion, because blood transfusions were less acceptable than EPO, and because they were commonly by top riders atthe time of his confusion, that would have backfired on every active rider. That was not his aim.

 

[pmcg76]

You know what is getting more stupid about this thread, we have people now stating that blood doping was likely quite widespread in the 80s yet they willingly believe that LeMond was beating guys who were blood doping.

These are the same people who would laugh if it were suggested that a current clean rider could beat a rider blood doping even with the BP restrictions that were not in place in the 80s.

I think we need a new rule or something called the 'LeMond exception' rule or something.

 

[hrotha]

These are the same people who...

See, this is where you went wrong.

 

[jens_attacks]

You know what is getting more stupid about this thread, we have people now stating that blood doping was likely quite widespread in the 80s yet they willingly believe that LeMond was beating guys who were blood doping.

These are the same people who would laugh if it were suggested that a current clean rider could beat a rider blood doping even with the BP restrictions that were not in place in the 80s.

I think we need a new rule or something called the 'LeMond exception' rule or something.

i don't think you can compare the boost those guys got in the 70's and in the 80's from their bags with the boost of nowadays.even with the so called bio passport in action.

lemond is a very jealous guy and he probably lies a little bit himself about his preparation, hormone rebalancing and other things for staying healthy in a grand tour (sorry lemond hardcore fans) but personally yes i think both him and proffesor fignon could have beaten riders who would blood dope back then. those guys still climbed at brick level with all the blood doping (rooks and theunisse 44-45 minutes alpe...in 2013 they would do under 40)

there is no way in hell though that lemond and fignon would have stand a chance in today's peloton in a grand tour. they'd get slaughtered. 15 minutes back afte the vosges