Who was the real winner of Flanders?

[pmcg76]

I think you admit that weight loss isn't a brand new strategy when you point out that it is blindingly simple. It is a new strategy for Wiggins, however, and he has benefited from this greatly.

You are right that British cycling has put a lot of money into technology and studies on looking for the edge. Wiggins has talked about how they've got scientists timing all the attacks at previous tour de frances to see if they can work out some formula. This type of thing won't necessarily bring any real benefits on the road, but it is something British fans can be pleased about.

There is nothing particularly wrong with jingoism in sport in particular. It's just that a small group of mainly American cycling fans have reacted against their own notoriously patriotic society by turning anti patriotism into a sort of cult. It's the in-thing to completely despise and smear their own riders to the point of parody. That's fine, they can despise their own riders all want if they wish to, but they shouldn't just expect people from other countries to be in their cult. They must understand that it's a psychological phenomenon relevant to their own experience of American society and therefore not something that will mean anything to people outside of it.

In Britain the problem is we're often not patriotic enough, therefore we try to overcompensate with sports and release ourselves from our negativity, so it's the sort of opposite situation to the yanks.

I dont think they are in some anti-patriotic clique, they are just saying dont defend people based on nationalism. I like to think the Irish riders are not doping but if they show evidence of ehanced performances, I aint gonna be defending them just because they are Irish. I would never say Kelly or Roche were innocent.

I think a lot of people believed in riders from their own countries before, especially Americans but have been badly burned by Armstrong/Landis and many others. Now they are simply asking others not to have the same blind faith.

I dont know if Wiggins is doping or not and aint gonna say one way or the other but that was a huge performance jump last year and as it can be regarded as normal to question such jumps for those who have followed cycling for any time, we have seen so many suspicious jumps before this.

What about Sir Alex and his 'typical Germans' jibe last night, he seemed to forget his own players chasing and hounding refs continously in various games through the years. When English teams are beaten in football, it is nearly always the refs fault somehow. What happens in football goes on in every league in the world but somehow its always a conspiracy against the English teams. Now thats jingoism.

 

[Machine]

God don't you just love sweeping generalisations that have little or nothing to do with doping in cycling. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with these people knowing what they're talking about.

Well the particular history of some of your own riders does play apart. That history of association with controversial doctors and feuds and mysterious is anything like on the same level with the UK riders. But there is also a large backlash against the type of patriotic society that America is. I think that's why it's seen as okay to viciously attack everything about your riders - you feel as though you pi$$ing against a hurricane and therefore it doesn't really matter. It's a different cultural experience.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

....blah blah blah....

Hey BPC - Digger is not American he is Irish!

British Cycling has spent millions (often taxpayers money) on being smarter than everyone else...........and then you come along.

 

[pmcg76]

Well the particular history of some of your own riders does play apart. That history of association with controversial doctors and feuds and mysterious is anything like on the same level with the UK riders. But there is also a large backlash against the type of patriotic society that America is. I think that's why it's seen as okay to viciously attack everything about your riders - you feel as though you pi$$ing against a hurricane and therefore it doesn't really matter. It's a different cultural experience.

Tom Simpson, Robert Millar, Malcolm Elliott, David Millar, thats quite a few of Britains top riders to be busted/linked to doping.

 

[Machine]

I think the feeling that there is nothing your riders could do to fall from grace is another motivating factor.

Wiggins would definitely not survive some of the scandals that have surrounded Armstrong. The UK media would not allow that - whether he was guilty or not.

 

[Machine]

Tom Simpson, Robert Millar, Malcolm Elliott, David Millar, thats quite a few of Britains top riders to be busted/linked to doping.

None of them are house hold names in the UK.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

..........

PMCG76 isn't American either..............but please continue.

 

[Machine]

PMCG76 isn't American either..............but please continue.

I said "mainly" American in my original post.

Are you denying that the Americans are the majority of "haters", and tend to be the most strident in their criticisms on sites like this?

My post was a reaction to BroDeal's response to Bobbins.

 

[pmcg76]

None of them are house hold names in the UK.

No, they just happen to be among the best British riders of all time. Other than Wiggins and maybe Boardman there are no other British riders above them. Point is if you are gonna say there is less evidence of British doping, you need to know what you are talking about.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I said "mainly" American in my original post.
....
My post was a reaction to BroDeal's response to Bobbins.

Actually you said "a small group of mainly American cycling fans"....... I guess since it was directed at one poster that is "small group".

 

[Digger]

I said "mainly" American in my original post.

Are you denying that the Americans are the majority of "haters", and tend to be the most strident in their criticisms on sites like this?

My post was a reaction to BroDeal's response to Bobbins.

Yes I am denying this.
I am Irish, Doctor is Irish, PMCG is Irish. All three of us would share the same views, for the most part, on these issues.
David Walsh, Paul Kimmage, Pierre Ballester - the three most outspoken journalists on this issue, not American.
In fact, on this website / forum, it is a very broad range of nationalities who are outspoken and are the 'haters' rolleyes.......so yeah, i think your statement is absolutely untrue.
Bjarne Riis is seen as a joke in Denmark. Jan Ullrich the same in Germany. Virenque in some circle the same in France. Rasmussen the same...how does this fit into your statement?

 

[Machine]

Point is if you are gonna say there is less evidence of British doping, you need to know what you are talking about.

I think you know that there is less evidence of it in the modern era, and if there were the associations with riders like Wiggins that have dogged other riders, his reputation would be shredded pretty quickly.

 

[Machine]

Actually you said "a small group of mainly American cycling fans"....... I guess since it was directed at one poster that is "small group".

So you're not denying it then?

 

[Digger]

None of them are house hold names in the UK.

Household names...or names you don't recognise?

 

[Machine]

Yes I am denying this.
I am Irish, Doctor is Irish, PMCG is Irish. All three of us would share the same views, for the most part, on these issues.
David Walsh, Paul Kimmage, Pierre Ballester - the three most outspoken journalists on this issue, not American.
In fact, on this website / forum, it is a vrey broad range of nationalities who are outspoken and are the 'haters' rolleyes.......so yeah, i think your statement is absolutely untrue.

That's three people. The Americans make up the majority of the haters and are the most hardcore in general. The hardcore bit is the most crucial.

I wouldn't quite discribe the doctor as a full out hater, though he has gone down in my opinion recently.

As for yourself, to be brutally honest I consider you more of a moron than a hater. Sorry about that.

 

[Digger]

I think you know that there is less evidence of it in the modern era, and if there were the associations with riders like Wiggins that have dogged other riders, his reputation would be shredded pretty quickly.

In fact, on the contrary, there is far, far more evidence. And this is thanks to Festina, AFLD, Puerto and other police raids. Next.........

 

[Machine]

Household names...or names you don't recognise?

Armstrong is a house hold name and a national legend in the US. None of the riders mentioned are anything like that, even though they of course have a high place in the history of British cycling.

 

[Machine]

In fact, on the contrary, there is far, far more evidence. And this is thanks to Festina, AFLD, Puerto and other police raids. Next.........

I was refering to British riders.....(you see what I mean?)

 

[Race Radio]

I am Irish, Doctor is Irish, PMCG is Irish. All three of us would share the same views, for the most part, on these issues.
David Walsh, Paul Kimmage,

I would say this is evidence of a Irish conspiracy but we all know the Irish are too busy drinking to organize anything.

 

[Frosty]

What about Sir Alex and his 'typical Germans' jibe last night, he seemed to forget his own players chasing and hounding refs continously in various games through the years. When English teams are beaten in football, it is nearly always the refs fault somehow. What happens in football goes on in every league in the world but somehow its always a conspiracy against the English teams. Now thats jingoism.

And no other nationalities do that do they? Talking about fergie specifically, he is a scot fwiw and i sometimes think he enjoys talking hypocritically.

Of course, the Irish always accept refereeing decisions and wouldnt try to get the rules changed because of their own misfortune would they?

 

[pmcg76]

I think you know that there is less evidence of it in the modern era, and if there were the associations with riders like Wiggins that have dogged other riders, his reputation would be shredded pretty quickly.

Because Britain has had so many top level Pros the last 10 years!!! Point is, this is a mainly 'Anglo' forum and there are people on here who will call out riders regardless of nationality but particularly 'Anglo' riders because that is what we hear and read about all the time. Then there are the people who defend riders/teams because of their nationality. Normal I guess but I dont think the so-called 'haters' are picking on people because of their anti-patriosm/nationality ot whatever you are suggesting.

As pointed out many times, different posters have different levels of what they consider evidence/guilt. I dont agree with all of them but just accept that is what they believe and they dont have a particular agenda against somebody. You guys are lucky Blackcat is not active at the moment or it would be a lot worse.

 

[Digger]

I was refering to British riders.....(you see what I mean?)

You keep changing the point of reference with each post!!! It's funny. You keep saying well I didn't mean exactly that, I meant this. Just slightly changing the goalposts. I think when you make the statements about yanks, haters, most of them from America, you're on fairly thin ground calling another poster a moron. Your ignorance in general, and of the sport, is a joy.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I was refering to British riders.....(you see what I mean?)

So why did you bring up Armstrong then, BPC?

 

[pmcg76]

And no other nationalities do that do they? Talking about fergie specifically, he is a scot fwiw and i sometimes think he enjoys talking hypocritically.

Of course, the Irish always accept refereeing decisions and wouldnt try to get the rules changed because of their own misfortune would they?

My point exactly, its common regardless of nationality. In regards to the incident you refer to re Ireland, yeah the ref screwed up but once it was over, that was it for me, move on. I was embarrased by the rubbish that was going on and it was coming mostly from part-time soccer fans but the FAI were idiots for trying to get a replay, the FAI do not have a good rep in Ireland either.

 

[Machine]

Well we can get onto the awkward Irish people thing if we want. I have Irish in my family. There is an anti imperialist history and therefore a strong part of their culture is sticking up for the little guy against the big bullies, mentality. This can lead to lots of self righteous moralising.

That's probably why they are highly represented in this hater grouping phenomenon.