Who was the real winner of Flanders?

[Tyler'sTwin]

Why not? They're not mutually exclusive..

They are if you're trying to explain why most dopers don't get caught. If the drugs are simply to difficult to detect, then most dopers will get away with it regardless of what the UCI does.

 

[BikeCentric]

The "media" that you are sighting have been a big part of bike racing for 100 years. The media don't have lots of data on the drug aspect of bike racing given it's history. Now the number of writers has exploded with each trying to one up the next. Yes there have been positive drug tests but given the number of athletes that race world wide the number is tiny. The infatuation with weeding out the drug cheats is a cottage industry along the lines of glossy paparazzi magazines. The butplug that stated a thread about Cancellara's great result coming from drug use is absurd to a real fan..but then again I don't even look at the Sun or National Enquirer while exiting the market. Cancellara has more blood in sample bottles world wide than he has currently in his body. Test after test he is found to be clean and fast.The WWW has shortened due process to the time it takes their feeble hands to hack in the hate. The "media" never mentioned that Cancellara was juiced that was reserved for the net bullies

WTF are you even talking about man?! Personally I don't even bother to question whether Canc is positive or not, I just enjoy the race, if a positive gets announced later then so be it, it's happenned many times before and will happen many times again.

And given what I just wrote, the fact that positives have happenned many times before, I don't see why on Earth anyone with half a brain is going to get all worked up about anyone questioning a very good performance.

Heck, I had some fat club rider ask me if I was on drugs a few weeks ago when I deigned to show up to a club ride and rip all their legs off. It comes with the territory of bike racing, grow a thick skin and deal with it.

Honestly the fake righteous indignation of you people who are desperate to believe in your illusion of pure sport is getting really old and pathetic.

If you want pure sport go watch your local Cat 3 race.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

They are if you're trying to explain why most dopers don't get caught. If the drugs are simply to difficult to detect, then most dopers will get away with it regardless of what the UCI does.

Not mutually exclusive - a quick example.

There is no test for autologous blood transfusions.
It would take a certain amount of planning and expertise to use this method effectively, so for a lot of Pro riders that would make it an expensive option.

However, CERA is now detectable, with a test coming in July 2008 - so it is risky to take -but yet when the UCI was offered the opportunity of retesting the Giro 2008 samples they refused.

 

[Hugh Januss]

WTF are you even talking about man?! Personally I don't even bother to question whether Canc is positive or not, I just enjoy the race, if a positive gets announced later then so be it, it's happenned many times before and will happen many times again.

And given what I just wrote, the fact that positives have happenned many times before, I don't see why on Earth anyone with half a brain is going to get all worked up about anyone questioning a very good performance.

Heck, I had some fat club rider ask me if I was on drugs a few weeks ago when I deigned to show up to a club ride and rip all their legs off. It comes with the territory of bike racing, grow a thick skin and deal with it.

Honestly the fake righteous indignation of you people who are desperate to believe in your illusion of pure sport is getting really old and pathetic.

If you want pure sport go watch your local Cat 3 race.

I wish I felt like that was always the case.

 

[BikeCentric]

I wish I felt like that was always the case.

It is most of the time. The vast majority of 3's don't have the genetic potential to be a pro. Most 3's have been racing long enough to know this truth about the sport and themselves and most of them already make more money in their day job than they'd make as a pro, are aware of this and don't want to be a pro. Yes now and then someone shows up in the pack who will do anything for a pro contract but I feel pretty confident I am correct about the majority mentality because I know a lot of amateur racers; it's my main social circle actually.

 

[Polish]

If you want pure sport go watch your local Cat 3 race.

The local cat3's cheat also lol -
although the quality of cheating is commensurate
with the quality of the results.

The purer the sport = higher levels of cheating.

F1 is a purer sport than MiniVanMan carpooling to school..

 

[BikeCentric]

*** babble

Can anyone translate what this mouth-breather typed into English?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Can anyone translate what this mouth-breather typed into English?

Well I'm not quite sure, but I think he was agreeing with me, which leads me to believe that you are right and I was wrong.

 

[Polish]

Can anyone translate what this mouth-breather typed into English?

Seems we just have a disagreement on the definition of "Pure Sport".

You would seem to think an LAF Charity Ride is 'Pure Cycling Sport"

I would argue that a Pro level Grand Tour is "Pure Cycling Sport".

You define pure sport = no doping.
I define pure sport = Arete or Excellence.

The TdF is "Purer Sport" than a Charity ride is what I am saying.
A cat3 race is somewhere in between, maybe. (some charity rides are tough)
+1 Hugh Janus

 

[fatandfast]

WTF are you even talking about man?! Personally I don't even bother to question whether Canc is positive or not, I just enjoy the race, if a positive gets announced later then so be it, it's happenned many times before and will happen many times again.

And given what I just wrote, the fact that positives have happenned many times before, I don't see why on Earth anyone with half a brain is going to get all worked up about anyone questioning a very good performance.

Heck, I had some fat club rider ask me if I was on drugs a few weeks ago when I deigned to show up to a club ride and rip all their legs off. It comes with the territory of bike racing, grow a thick skin and deal with it.

Honestly the fake righteous indignation of you people who are desperate to believe in your illusion of pure sport is getting really old and pathetic.

If you want pure sport go watch your local Cat 3 race.

The wtf was the fact that the tread was started a little while after Cancellara won. It went on to ask if he was juiced. The fact that people ask you if your are loaded because you can smoke a couple of portly weekend warriors is telling. At this stage of the season and cycling year if you are starting rides with guys who have less fitness or ability you are probably destined to be the king of the club. Nothing is pure except the BS you spew about knowledge you gained from media about racing. Additionally stinky would be your form. Crushing a club rider and sitting around waiting for praise in the way of a question "Man what are you on?" defines pathetic. The thread I was critical of was about implying that a recent winner was jacked. You put my words through your DB filter and came up with the observation of Cat3 races as quality cycling.

 

[BikeCentric]

The wtf was the fact that the tread was started a little while after Cancellara won. It went on to ask if he was juiced. The fact that people ask you if your are loaded because you can smoke a couple of portly weekend warriors is telling. At this stage of the season and cycling year if you are starting rides with guys who have less fitness or ability you are probably destined to be the king of the club. Nothing is pure except the BS you spew about knowledge you gained from media about racing. Additionally stinky would be your form. Crushing a club rider and sitting around waiting for praise in the way of a question "Man what are you on?" defines pathetic. The thread I was critical of was about implying that a recent winner was jacked. You put my words through your DB filter and came up with the observation of Cat3 races as quality cycling.

The only central point I can see in all of your ***-speak is that you seem to be genuinely offended that people are questioning the cleanliness of Cancellara's performance and this causes you to make a complete *** of yourself by ranting on internet forums.

I'm simply trying to understand why you are such an idiot. We know that you can seemingly read and type or you wouldn't be able to communicate on this forum. Yet somehow your addled brain is so intoxicated by the sight of Cancellara in spandex that you get angry when people question his cleanliness despite the fact that he competes and wins in a dirty sport that has many documented cases of riders failing drug tests in the past.

The only conclusion to be drawn from your posts is that you are a fuc!ing idiot. Actually a fat fuc!ing idiot if your choice of screen name is accurate.

 

[fatandfast]

BikeCentric you have me all wrong,you forgot to add angry. Yes seeing Cancellara is awesome, almost to the point of wood, when I go to the Tour of Flanders I have a condom on in advance,it's that exciting. When they start doing slap suits I hope you get one and a public assistance attorney. I am @7 pounds over race weight, I will change my screen name to one of your suggestions when I drop below my self imposed limit. My rant then and now is that if your gut reaction to a great race and racers is to run and type "cheater". Your raving description of me may also fit you. Me for being a closeted Swiss Spandex freak and you for rising to the pinnacle of your cycling knowledge and ability. If you still smolder in your swill about your misguided views on Cancellara,lesser riders in your training group and your never ending belief that everybody is out to get you should drop the Bike and put in EgoCentric.

 

[Oldman]

The only central point I can see in all of your ***-speak is that you seem to be genuinely offended that people are questioning the cleanliness of Cancellara's performance and this causes you to make a complete *** of yourself by ranting on internet forums.

I'm simply trying to understand why you are such an idiot. We know that you can seemingly read and type or you wouldn't be able to communicate on this forum. Yet somehow your addled brain is so intoxicated by the sight of Cancellara in spandex that you get angry when people question his cleanliness despite the fact that he competes and wins in a dirty sport that has many documented cases of riders failing drug tests in the past.

The only conclusion to be drawn from your posts is that you are a fuc!ing idiot. Actually a fat fuc!ing idiot if your choice of screen name is accurate.

Girls, girls, girls....you largely agree with each other but are fighting like siblings. This is about the race, isn't it?

 

[BikeCentric]

BikeCentric you have me all wrong,you forgot to add angry. Yes seeing Cancellara is awesome, almost to the point of wood, when I go to the Tour of Flanders I have a condom on in advance,it's that exciting. When they start doing slap suits I hope you get one and a public assistance attorney. I am @7 pounds over race weight, I will change my screen name to one of your suggestions when I drop below my self imposed limit. My rant then and now is that if your gut reaction to a great race and racers is to run and type "cheater". Your raving description of me may also fit you. Me for being a closeted Swiss Spandex freak and you for rising to the pinnacle of your cycling knowledge and ability. If you still smolder in your swill about your misguided views on Cancellara,lesser riders in your training group and your never ending belief that everybody is out to get you should drop the Bike and put in EgoCentric.

Go back and read my posts. Nowhere, not once, did I personally insinuate or question whether Cancellara is/was dirty or not. As a matter of fact I specifically stated that I don't care.

What I do care about here, and my own central point, is people like you who are personally attacking posters for questioning Cancellara's performance as if they are somehow being completely ludicrous and offensive. All this when for the umpteenth time we are watching a sport that has dozens of actual positive tests every single year.

 

[fatandfast]

Ok settled. This is how I react about Fabian, I am glad you didn't say anything about Liberace. I would have to put on my press on nails

 

[Oldman]

Ok settled. This is how I react about Fabian, I am glad you didn't say anything about Liberace. I would have to put on my press on nails

Now both of you kiss and make up.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Now both of you kiss and make up.

....... but no tongues.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Go back and read my posts. Nowhere, not once, did I personally insinuate or question whether Cancellara is/was dirty or not. As a matter of fact I specifically stated that I don't care.

What I do care about here, and my own central point, is people like you who are personally attacking posters for questioning Cancellara's performance as if they are somehow being completely ludicrous and offensive. All this when for the umpteenth time we are watching a sport that has dozens of actual positive tests every single year.

Actually they are being a bit ludicrous IMO. Not because they think Cancellara is doping; it's by far the most reasonable conclusion given the information publicly available about pro cycling. They are being ludicrous because they write as if Cancellara's RvV performance provides additional information about doping in pro cycling.

 

[Machine]

Not the files but a snap shot...

Max....
Speed: 80km/h
Cadence:147 rpm
HR: 190 bpm
Power: 1450W
Total work: 6459 kJ
Source: http://twitter.com/Cyclefilm/status/11635766005

Average...
Speed: 40km/h
Cadence: 73 rpm
HR: 143 bpm
Power:285W
Source: http://twitter.com/Cyclefilm/status/11635652467

Very interesting.

I'm surprised his average HR isn't a touch higher. I would expect 150s. His av cadence seems a little low as well considering how quick he spins, though the max is off the charts.

 

[Martin318is]

Very interesting.

I'm surprised his average HR isn't a touch higher. I would expect 150s. His av cadence seems a little low as well considering how quick he spins, though the max is off the charts.

Don't assume that he pedals the whole time when in the draft in the peleton. A technique used by a lot of riders is to slap it into a very big gear and just do the absolute minimum effort to maintain their position in the group because although it exposes them to sudden changes in pace, it uses much less aerobic effort to hold position. This can mean lots of zero cadence interspersed with numbers like 60rpm. (and a low HR possibly)

You would of course expect that his average cadence would be over 95 if he were to ride the distance solo.

 

[Machine]

Don't assume that he pedals the whole time when in the draft in the peleton. A technique used by a lot of riders is to slap it into a very big gear and just do the absolute minimum effort to maintain their position in the group because although it exposes them to sudden changes in pace, it uses much less aerobic effort to hold position. This can mean lots of zero cadence interspersed with numbers like 60rpm. (and a low HR possibly)

You would of course expect that his average cadence would be over 95 if he were to ride the distance solo.

Yeah I figured that, it's just that the Flanders is so intense I thought it may be less free wheeling. Couldn't see much of that on the day.

His impressive 190 max HR must have been his massive attack on the final climb. I wonder how long he could hold that.

 

[Machine]

My numbers from a 50 mile individual ride yesterday.

Avg HR: 153 bpm
Max HR: 176 bpm

Avg Bike Cadence: 89 rpm
Max Bike Cadence: 116 rpm

Don't have a power monitor.

 

[buckwheat]

I don't agree with this take although I'm in the camp that thinks that pretty much every rider (i.e. 90%+) are on the juice.

We do have a different philosophical take on the issue.

Think about it, drugs are basically just the frosting on the cake that is pro cycling. I'm not condoning them at all mind you, I'd prefer that the sport be 100% clean but this is impossible and thus a fantasy.

Not a fantasy at all. It's possible to make the cheats the exception, not the rule but for that to happen a large cultural shift would have to occur.

But the fact that drugs are used in the sport does not take away from all the training necessary to get to that level regardless of genetic potential,

I disagree. The drugs are a huge asset enabling massive training volumes. People like LeMond and Seb Coe have emphasized quality over quantity to an unbelievable degree. Normal (un doped) humans simply cannot tolerate such stresses. Coe was susceptible to respiratory viruses. LeMond has spoken a great deal about cortisol levels.

they do not take away from the extremely disciplined diet and lifestyle required to succeed at this level,

Maybe this extreme lifestyle isn't an admirable thing and this "success" isn't success at all. Without PED's, I don't believe such extreme discipline is desirable or necessary. It' kind of more about either having it or not.

and they do not take away from the suffering and courage required to win on race day.

Having intimately known elite athletes, I don't attribute their success to either suffering or courage. First of all, if they did not quite love what they were doing, they did need it. Secondly, when they weren't in the "arena," their lives were much more complex and difficult. Ever wonder why boxers can't retire? Answer: they're kind of nutty people who are only comfortable/powerful inside the ring.

Granted drugs certainly do distort the spectacle that is pro cycling, but I cannot agree that they turn it into a complete fraud.

I have some athletic ability and a crazy strong constitution, and I've taken some stuff and know that it changes you in profound ways. It's just not even worth talking about degrees of fraud. Now I'm not saying that cheating cyclists are personally complete frauds but in the arena where they are enhancing their performance, those performances are fraudulent. Seeing it any other way is almost a psychopathology. A justification for sporting fraud is usually classified that way.

 

[easy to remember]

Not the files but a snap shot...

Max....
Speed: 80km/h
Cadence:147 rpm
HR: 190 bpm
Power: 1450W
Total work: 6459 kJ
Source: http://twitter.com/Cyclefilm/status/11635766005

Average...
Speed: 40km/h
Cadence: 73 rpm
HR: 143 bpm
Power:285W
Source: http://twitter.com/Cyclefilm/status/11635652467

thats fake! he had a bike change during the race, @285w he would consume 1000Kcal/hr, the race was 6hrs 25min, that^ says 6500Kcal which is exactly right, and the avg speed was 6hrs 25min for about 260km =40km/hr, its not Cancellara's power numbers but is someone's who was in the race alright, he had no time to put it on during the bike change there was video of it on youtube

 

[Race Radio]

thats fake! he had a bike change during the race, @285w he would consume 1000Kcal/hr, the race was 6hrs 25min, that^ says 6500Kcal which is exactly right, and the avg speed was 6hrs 25min for about 260km =40km/hr, its not Cancellara's power numbers but is someone's who was in the race alright, he had no time to put it on during the bike change there was video of it on youtube

He changed his bike twice.

He gave up his #1 bike for his backup because there was a brake issue. They fixed the brake and he swaped back to his #1 bike a few km's later