Who was the real winner of Flanders?

[Hugh Januss]

I hope and pray that all the riders entering Flanders 20 10 were clean. My guess is the top 5 were. No joke, its the best I can do. If some were dirty I would be dissapointed. Nothing more to add.

So..........the top 5 were clean, but the guys they dropped were doing things that we know many have done in the past and not failed any tests. We also can read what kind of benefits these "programs" offer, and yet you are convinced that the top five are clean, while the guys that couldn't keep up with them are the ones doping. I am amazed that you can remember to breath while you are walking.

 

[Ferminal]

I guess what I meant with my post was, why do you guys immediately try to focus on the negative? No, I may not have been a cycling fan for as long as some of you, but I have been a fan for quite some time, in addition I do have an inside into the game. If you don't believe in it, in the beauty of it, why even watch?
Cancellara's win was a great one. No one could go with him because he was the strongest on the day. Remember that the next time you get dropped on your local wednesday night worlds

Check the main thread on Flanders, almost every single person stated how amazing, wonderful, exciting etc Cancellara's move and win were. PED use or no PED use is irrelevant in that regard. There is only a minority of cases where people would claim that the winner was victorious because of a pharmaceutical advantage over his rivals.

This thread was started as a bit of a p1ss take, not a negative reaction to a great performance.

 

[buckwheat]

I guess what I meant with my post was, why do you guys immediately try to focus on the negative? No, I may not have been a cycling fan for as long as some of you, but I have been a fan for quite some time, in addition I do have an inside into the game. If you don't believe in it, in the beauty of it, why even watch?
Cancellara's win was a great one. No one could go with him because he was the strongest on the day. Remember that the next time you get dropped on your local wednesday night worlds

Yeah Tff! Why are you so negative?

See, I called it. I love this chick thing that when a person points out the facts of the matter they are being negative.

Thoroughbred racehorses and greyhounds are beautiful also, and I go to the track, but I don't for a second believe they're clean.

 

[buckwheat]

Check the main thread on Flanders, almost every single person stated how amazing, wonderful, exciting etc Cancellara's move and win were. PED use or no PED use is irrelevant in that regard. There is only a minority of cases where people would claim that the winner was victorious because of a pharmaceutical advantage over his rivals.

This thread was started as a bit of a p1ss take, not a negative reaction to a great performance.

You've never taken PED's then.

They make you a different person and they can easily make the difference between winning and losing.

Modafinil was banned in 2004 I believe and there were conflicting opinions as to whether it's performance enhancing. Try one yourself and you'll see how you are not even yourself, you're a zoned in zombie for hours after taking one.

Drugs work, damn, ever wonder why marijuana is illegal? People would be so relaxed they could see clearly and the manipulators, corporations and government, wouldn't be as effective doing their thing; manipulating the people.

 

[Oldman]

You've never taken PED's then.

They make you a different person and they can easily make the difference between winning and losing.

Modafinil was banned in 2004 I believe and there were conflicting opinions as to whether it's performance enhancing. Try one yourself and you'll see how you are not even yourself, you're a zoned in zombie for hours after taking one.

Drugs work, damn, ever wonder why marijuana is illegal? People would be so relaxed they could see clearly and the manipulators, corporations and government, wouldn't be as effective doing their thing; manipulating the people.

Sure they would. I've never been particulary motivated to "Fight the Power" after a couple of tokes. I'd rather have a beer and watch TV. Probably be too lazy to change he channel when a Michelob Ultra commercial came on, again....and again.....Uh, yeah. Drugs work.

 

[davidg]

Drugs work, damn, ever wonder why marijuana is illegal? People would be so relaxed they could see clearly and the manipulators, corporations and government, wouldn't be as effective doing their thing; manipulating the people.

Don't forget to take the tin foil off your head when you go to bed.

 

[Ferminal]

You've never taken PED's then.

They make you a different person and they can easily make the difference between winning and losing.

Modafinil was banned in 2004 I believe and there were conflicting opinions as to whether it's performance enhancing. Try one yourself and you'll see how you are not even yourself, you're a zoned in zombie for hours after taking one.

Drugs work, damn, ever wonder why marijuana is illegal? People would be so relaxed they could see clearly and the manipulators, corporations and government, wouldn't be as effective doing their thing; manipulating the people.

So you think that Cancellara won simply because he had the best program?

As I said, there are only a few cases where it's clear PEDs were the difference between the main contenders, surely Flanders wasn't one of them. If Lance wins the TdF we might credit it to Ferrari, but if Alberto wins we acknowledge that he was the best on a "level" playing field.

 

[Avoriaz]

+1

But in general North Americans tend to want to call things for what they are - they tend to be more black and white in their thinking - and of course as with all generalisations there are many N Americans who are not like this. With respect to doping/cheating I think you would find a similar attitude in the UK. .....

I think you will find more generally in Europe a broader perspective, one that takes in the whole sport and it's history... and less of a desire to judge the sport just on doping. An acceptance of the good and the bad as part of the theatre of the sport. They are very different perspectives on what constitutes healthy competition. It is a mistake to think of this as naivety.

It's what makes the World a colourful place to be!

I think what you get is:

North America: everybody cheats apart from Americans
UK: everybody cheats, but it is okay as will be alright after a cup of tea
France: everybody cheats apart from the French
Belgium: snorting off a strippers body isn't really cheating, besides this sport is hard
Spain: too busy on the phone to their gynaecologist
Italy: it's asthma medication only.

 

[Tapeworm]

I would have to love too see that power file from Fabians SRM. Obviously they won't publish that. Some freak watts. Fabian did final 10K at 47.7km/h and that was with ease, if wind didn't have effect that would require about 470watts. And that's after 250Ks. Fabian must have one insane threshold power.

When Lance was putting out close to 500 watts he was considered to be doped up to his eyeballs, but when Fabian does it he's clean. As for their weights, LA was never under 74kg, and Fabian is now leaner than ever, very close to LA weight. Not much difference.

I didn't buy Fabians performance at Mendrisio, and I don't buy it now either.

Not the files but a snap shot...

Max....
Speed: 80km/h
Cadence:147 rpm
HR: 190 bpm
Power: 1450W
Total work: 6459 kJ
Source: http://twitter.com/Cyclefilm/status/11635766005

Average...
Speed: 40km/h
Cadence: 73 rpm
HR: 143 bpm
Power:285W
Source: http://twitter.com/Cyclefilm/status/11635652467

 

[Anonymous]

I would have to love too see that power file from Fabians SRM. Obviously they won't publish that. Some freak watts. Fabian did final 10K at 47.7km/h and that was with ease, if wind didn't have effect that would require about 470watts. And that's after 250Ks. Fabian must have one insane threshold power.

29.8mph over 6 miles with a massive tail-wind isn't particularly super-human, and he didn't look at ease from what I saw.

 

[buckwheat]

[/color]
Sure they would. I've never been particulary motivated to "Fight the Power" after a couple of tokes. I'd rather have a beer and watch TV. Probably be too lazy to change he channel when a Michelob Ultra commercial came on, again....and again.....Uh, yeah. Drugs work.

"the greatest weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed."

Stephen Biko

As any good fighter knows, you take the other guy's power and use it against him.

The "Power" would be laughed at and would have to do the dirty work themselves. The "bad" people with crazy agendas are a distinct minority.

 

[buckwheat]

So you think that Cancellara won simply because he had the best program?

Very simply, I have no idea why he won. You really don't either. Problem is, it's not that simple, especially with his history and the sport's history.

As I said, there are only a few cases where it's clear PEDs were the difference between the main contenders,

And how would you know that.

surely Flanders wasn't one of them.

You have absolutely no basis to make that statement. 260 km is exactly the kind of event where PED's give a huge advantage and God only knows the effects on each individual. Damn, most people can't even get going without a couple cups of coffee.

If Lance wins the TdF we might credit it to Ferrari, but if Alberto wins we acknowledge that he was the best on a "level" playing field.

I grant you that it makes a lot more sense, but I don't put any faith in Alberto's cleanliness.

 

[buckwheat]

Don't forget to take the tin foil off your head when you go to bed.

Hey man! I'm having a dispute with my neighbor. I'll give you a little bonus if you start a war with him. He's a really bad guy. His girlfriend is gorgeous. You can have her. You'll be a hero and a mensch if you do this little bit of business for me.

 

[Ferminal]

Very simply, I have no idea why he won. You really don't either. Problem is, it's not that simple, especially with his history and the sport's history.

And how would you know that.

You have absolutely no basis to make that statement. 260 km is exactly the kind of event where PED's give a huge advantage and God only knows the effects on each individual. Damn, most people can't even get going without a couple cups of coffee.

I grant you that it makes a lot more sense, but I don't put any faith in Alberto's cleanliness.

Because PEDs are rife in the sport, if Cancellara was on the juice, so was Boonen, both are world class riders and both if they were on programs, would have the absolute best. I dare someone to suggest that Spartacus was doping but Boonen wasn't.

Cancellara (if) doping wasn't the only one of the top10 being naughty, and I'd be very surprised if his program was somehow miles ahead of others.

I'd suggest that one day races have a lot lesser margin for pharmaceutical enhancement than multi-day events and GTs. Into a classic you only have the preparation, only one "chemical battle" between two riders, in a GT you have 23.

But from there it gets a lot more complicated as it has to do with what PEDs you are using leading into a big classic and to what margin they rely on the "responsiveness to doping". As opposed to blood doping in a GT which seems to be more variable.

Of course Alberto isn't clean - but on a level playing field he's the winner. Just like Fabian, on a level playing field on Sunday also prevailed.

 

[Escarabajo]

Were you this bothered when Cancellara was using Checcini as his doctor? Were you this concerned when he continued to use him after 1/2 his client list was caught doping? He even defended him an in interview less then 3 years ago. He only stopped working with him publicly after he was forced to.

Ever wonder who the blood bag from Fuentes fridge with the name "Clasicomano Luigi" belongs to? Do you think that Cancellara was the only rider that was not part of the program on Fasso?

There is nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious. Pretending it does not exist and getting angry when anyone points it out does nothing.

And I thought she had inside information? She must know Luigi Cecchini then.

 

[buckwheat]

Because PEDs are rife in the sport, if Cancellara was on the juice, so was Boonen, both are world class riders and both if they were on programs, would have the absolute best. I dare someone to suggest that Spartacus was doping but Boonen wasn't.

As far as the racing goes, I guess we agree for the most part. I'm just really kind of "over" most athletic competitions although the NCAA basketball final was a great and exciting game.

Cancellara (if) doping wasn't the only one of the top10 being naughty, and I'd be very surprised if his program was somehow miles ahead of others.

Yes, that's a good point.

I'd suggest that one day races have a lot lesser margin for pharmaceutical enhancement than multi-day events and GTs. Into a classic you only have the preparation, only one "chemical battle" between two riders, in a GT you have 23.

I hear you. The "ability" of these guys to recover is even more impressive than their absolute performance.

But from there it gets a lot more complicated as it has to do with what PEDs you are using leading into a big classic and to what margin they rely on the "responsiveness to doping". As opposed to blood doping in a GT which seems to be more variable.

Of course Alberto isn't clean - but on a level playing field he's the winner. Just like Fabian, on a level playing field on Sunday also prevailed.

From the perspective of it being a spectacle, I'm into Pro cycling. I do think it's every fans prerogative to be able to call bs on it though. In the same way it's every human being's prerogative to call bs on the "heroism" of war.

Probably one of the very few choices we have as people is to assent to what is true and dissent to what is false. Pro cycling is false. Fake, phony. What else can you say?

I share LeMond's take on these things.

 

[fruit bars with eyes]

I think what you get is:

North America: everybody cheats apart from Americans
UK: everybody cheats, but it is okay as will be alright after a cup of tea
France: everybody cheats apart from the French
Belgium: snorting off a strippers body isn't really cheating, besides this sport is hard
Spain: too busy on the phone to their gynaecologist
Italy: it's asthma medication only.

very good!

Kazakhstan: who do i bribe to sort out our little problem?
Australia: guys who are afraid to dope are girls/gay/losers
Poland: if it says on the vial "best use by 1994" is that ok?
Germany: only Austrians dope on our teams
Austria: Austrians only dope on German teams
Scotland: I'm so sorry it's all my own fault I was a sinner lost in the wilderness but now I'm found I'd especially like to apologise to my family, friends, fans, etc.

 

[BikeCentric]

Pro cycling is false. Fake, phony. What else can you say?

I don't agree with this take although I'm in the camp that thinks that pretty much every rider (i.e. 90%+) are on the juice.

Think about it, drugs are basically just the frosting on the cake that is pro cycling. I'm not condoning them at all mind you, I'd prefer that the sport be 100% clean but this is impossible and thus a fantasy. But the fact that drugs are used in the sport does not take away from all the training necessary to get to that level regardless of genetic potential, they do not take away from the extremely disciplined diet and lifestyle required to succeed at this level, and they do not take away from the suffering and courage required to win on race day.

Granted drugs certainly do distort the spectacle that is pro cycling, but I cannot agree that they turn it into a complete fraud.

 

[BikeCentric]

So how do you know it's not an even playing field? You don't.
Your not there, sludging through 260k in the rain.
THat's what I was getting at. This whole post has been about the immediate knee jerk reaction that whoever won was doped to the gills. It's bull****.
I did actually mean inside not insight. I do actually have an inside version of pro bike racing.
Still on your wednesday night ride, somebody always puts the smack down, just like Fabian did today, and your left sitting on the side lines

First off, stop eating so many burritos if you want to stop getting dropped on your Wednesday ride that you keep telling us about.

Second, even those fans who have not raced at a high level certainly are provided with quite a bit of insight into what goes on in Pro Cycling through the many cases year after year of riders testing positive. And we know that the tests cannot catch 100% of the dopers.

So I'm not really sure what the point of your ranting is.

 

[Escarabajo]

...

Of course Alberto isn't clean - but on a level playing field he's the winner. Just like Fabian, on a level playing field on Sunday also prevailed.

There is no reason to watch the classics if you don't accept doping to some extent. I am sure a lot of those riders are doped to the gills.

Having said that, you have no way of knowing that there was a level playing field. That's completely impossible of knowing. There could even be a clean rider in the top 20. You don't know. Some riders could even be more jacked up than others. Depends also on the Doctors. Remember that Lance has always been using drugs, and only until he paid the big bucks to use Ferrari he did not become a GT Champion.

 

[Oldman]

First off, stop eating so many burritos if you want to stop getting dropped on your Wednesday ride that you keep telling us about.

Second, even those fans who have not raced at a high level certainly are provided with quite a bit of insight into what goes on in Pro Cycling through the many cases year after year of riders testing positive. And we know that the tests cannot catch 100% of the dopers.

So I'm not really sure what the point of your ranting is.

Sounds like a little local jealousy. But I think we've all pretty much agreed that the classics bring out the whole tool kit for one day. Cancellara won by turning his pedals faster than Boonen up that hill. How he did it only he knows.

 

[fatandfast]

First off, stop eating so many burritos if you want to stop getting dropped on your Wednesday ride that you keep telling us about.

Second, even those fans who have not raced at a high level certainly are provided with quite a bit of insight into what goes on in Pro Cycling through the many cases year after year of riders testing positive. And we know that the tests cannot catch 100% of the dopers.

So I'm not really sure what the point of your ranting is.

Also driving your kids to school in a minivan gets you inside the head of a formula 1 driver,it gives you a bit of insight as to what his job is really like. People who do a 18 mile cat5 race get the feeling of what it would be like to pay your mortgage payments with the proceeds from your physical ability .

 

[BikeCentric]

Also driving your kids to school in a minivan gets you inside the head of a formula 1 driver,it gives you a bit of insight as to what his job is really like. People who do a 18 mile cat5 race get the feeling of what it would be like to pay your mortgage payments with the proceeds from your physical ability .

No actually I was specifically talking about reading the many actual factual media reports of positive drug tests that continue to occur every year in pro cycling.

Your false equivalencies are completely irrelevent here.

 

[sadfitty]

Ok, 285 watts average for 6 hours. Obviously, the climbs requires some watts to get over. On the other hand, he probably spent at least 5 hours drafting. In order to get his average up to 285w he must have done quite a bit more than that during the final hour.
There is no way he did less than 470-480 from the Kapelmuur and in. Can't see how it can be done clean....

 

[fatandfast]

No actually I was specifically talking about reading the many actual factual media reports of positive drug tests that continue to occur every year in pro cycling.

Your false equivalencies are completely irrelevent here.

The "media" that you are sighting have been a big part of bike racing for 100 years. The media don't have lots of data on the drug aspect of bike racing given it's history. Now the number of writers has exploded with each trying to one up the next. Yes there have been positive drug tests but given the number of athletes that race world wide the number is tiny. The infatuation with weeding out the drug cheats is a cottage industry along the lines of glossy paparazzi magazines. The butplug that stated a thread about Cancellara's great result coming from drug use is absurd to a real fan..but then again I don't even look at the Sun or National Enquirer while exiting the market. Cancellara has more blood in sample bottles world wide than he has currently in his body. Test after test he is found to be clean and fast.The WWW has shortened due process to the time it takes their feeble hands to hack in the hate. The "media" never mentioned that Cancellara was juiced that was reserved for the net bullies