Who will win 2012 Tour de France

[Froome19]

Yeah BMC winning the tour makes them more successful than sky.
Yeah but the fact is sky haven't won the tour yet, something which a few brit fans have still not realised yet.
If they did of course it will make sky very successful.

This is not about who is more succesful but about who is better.

 

[dlwssonic]

This is not about who is more succesful but about who is better.

Ok BMC are better because they have won the tour.
Sky win more but still have not gotten their big win such as a big classic or a grand tour.
Im sure its coming soon though.

 

[El Pistolero]

Ok BMC are better because they have won the tour.
Sky win more but still have not gotten their big win such as a big classic or a grand tour.
Im sure its coming soon though.

It means they were lucky that Wiggins crashed out if you ask me.

 

[dlwssonic]

Its not trolling. Everytime you try to hijack a discussion into "bait Sky fans" i will remind you that they have been by far the best team in the peloton this year.

No they have been great but how can you forget OPQS!!!!

 

[dlwssonic]

It means they were lucky that Wiggins crashed out if you ask me.

Huh?
So they could get a better shot at the vuelta?

 

[The Hitch]

No they have been great but how can you forget OPQS!!!!

Because they have not done anything for 2 months.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

They were allowed to ride away on a descent, and when they tried to maintain it on the flat and the climb they were completely incapable of doing so.

1) Giving your main rival a minute in a decent does not conform with allowing them to ride away and patiently getting them back. If you're a good decender you don't just let your main rival ride away from you like that on a descent.

2) sure, BMC's team looses to Sky on all fields except decending, but look at this:

Where are the flats? I don't see them? Wiggo needs to not lose a minute in every descent finish to Evans, Nibali and Samu in these stages, but can he? Today implies it is at least difficult for him to keep up with these boys in the descent. Tomorrow will give a clearer indication of Wiggo's descending skill's. All I'm saying is that today implies Wiggo's descending skill's to be significantly inferior to Samu, Nibali and Evans. In the stages posted above that will be a problem. Tomorrow we'll know more.

And now I have enough of arguing with Sky fanboys, I'll come back tomorrow after we have a more clear indication of Wiggins descending skills. Bye bye Sky Fans, sleep well and don't you have nightmare's about Wiggo being dropped on descents tonight!

 

[Froome19]

Ok BMC are better because they have won the tour.
Sky win more but still have not gotten their big win such as a big classic or a grand tour.
Im sure its coming soon though.

So is everything based primarily on results?
Because I do not think it is fair to claim one team is better than another based on a result which the supposedly worse team had no opportunity to get.

 

[dlwssonic]

Because they have not done anything for 2 months.

but they have gotten more wins and bigger ones too.
RVV, PR, E3, GW.
Leipheimer if not injured, would have gotten them some big wins too.
They recently won belgium, and der panzerwagen is warming his legs up for some big wins.
They won the fair play teams classification at the Giro too.

 

[El Pistolero]

Because they have not done anything for 2 months.

Still won 5 races during that period.

Of course you conveniently ignore the bigger picture again: both Leipheimer and Martin have been hit by a car.

 

[dlwssonic]

So is everything based primarily on results?
Because I do not think it is fair to claim one team is better than another based on a result which the supposedly worse team had no opportunity to get.

BMC have had their fair share of having no opportinity to get results.
Gilbert and Hushovd classics season totally gone thanks to infections, illnesses and crashes.

Evans crashing out of the 2010 tour and getting sick in the 2010 Giro.
Evans not being able to take part in the ardennes two years in a row.
just to name a few.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

1) Giving your main rival a minute in a decent does not conform with allowing them to ride away and patiently getting them back. If you're a good decender you don't just let your main rival ride away from you like that on a descent.

2) sure, BMC's team looses to Sky on all fields except decending, but look at this:

Where are the flats? I don't see them? Wiggo needs to not lose a minute in every descent finish to Evans, Nibali and Samu in these stages, but can he? Today implies it is at least difficult for him to keep up with these boys in the descent. Tomorrow will give a clearer indication of Wiggo's descending skill's. All I'm saying is that today implies Wiggo's descending skill's to be significantly inferior to Samu, Nibali and Evans. In the stages posted above that will be a problem. Tomorrow we'll know more.

And now I have enough of arguing with Sky fanboys, I'll come back tomorrow after we have a more clear indication of Wiggins descending skills. Bye bye Sky Fans, sleep well and don't you have nightmare's about Wiggo being dropped on descents tonight!

You think Wiggins was dropped. I think he did not try to follow.

I feel like later events vindicates my position rather more than yours, but I'm content to let tomorrow and July decide the point.

 

[El Pistolero]

You think Wiggins was dropped. I think he did not try to follow.

I feel like later events vindicates my position rather more than yours, but I'm content to let tomorrow and July decide the point.

While I actually agree with that(until tomorrow anyway), this is the reason I used Paris-Roubaix as an example. They didn't try to follow there as well.

 

[Froome19]

BMC have had their fair share of having no opportinity to get results.
Gilbert and Hushovd classics season totally gone thanks to infections, illnesses and crashes.

Evans crashing out of the 2010 tour and getting sick in the 2010 Giro.
Evans not being able to take part in the ardennes two years in a row.
just to name a few.

Indeed...

 

[El Pistolero]

Huh?
So they could get a better shot at the vuelta?

No, BMC were lucky. Who knows what Wiggo would've done there...

 

[patterson_hood]

Lets not forget the man who could really upset the apple cart... Cavendish.

 

[El Pistolero]

Lets not forget the man who could really upset the apple cart... Cavendish.

Cav is no longer at the top of the food chain. Wiggins is much more important now for Team Sky. He can write even bigger history than Cav last year. I'm eager to finally see him in the mountains. If he can impress me as much there as in the time trials then we have a Vélo d'Or winner I think.

 

[patterson_hood]

Cav is no longer at the top of the food chain.

He can still cause problems in the team if he feels he's not getting support. Personally I'd give him Eisel and EBH and tell him to get on with it, GE will do the work for him, but I don't think he'd be happy with that.

 

[Froome19]

He can still cause problems in the team if he feels he's not getting support. Personally I'd give him Eisel and EBH and tell him to get on with it, GE will do the work for him, but I don't think he'd be happy with that.

Apparently Brailsford said in an interview that he thinks it will be very beneficial for Wiggins to take part in the leadouts as it will keep him up there and out of trouble "and benefit his GC chances"

Indeed I have to agree that it will be effectively the same as doing a BMC just with Cav tacked on at the end and I am struggling to see any negatives with such a proposal.

 

[El Pistolero]

He can still cause problems in the team if he feels he's not getting support. Personally I'd give him Eisel and EBH and tell him to get on with it, GE will do the work for him, but I don't think he'd be happy with that.

EBH could become a very important pawn for Wiggins...

I'd give him Eisel and one extra guy(not EBH) to help him during his lead-out.

Froome + EBH + Porte + Kanstantsin Siutsou + Lars Peter Nordhaug(is he riding?) for Wiggins.

To be honest, I can't see Sky dominating both the sprints, the mountain stages and the transition stages. They'll have to make some choices. Best decision would be to let Cavendish go home after the third week(unless something happened to Wiggo).

 

[patterson_hood]

Apparently Brailsford said in an interview that he thinks it will be very beneficial for Wiggins to take part in the leadouts as it will keep him up there and out of trouble "and benefit his GC chances"

Indeed I have to agree that it will be effectively the same as doing a BMC just with Cav tacked on at the end and I am struggling to see any negatives with such a proposal.

It's more Cav needing people to drag him over the mountains who could be helping Wiggo and tiring out the domestiques.

It could work, but it could go very wrong and people seem to have forgotten about it.

 

[patterson_hood]

EBH could become a very important pawn for Wiggins...

I'd give him Eisel and one extra guy(not EBH) to help him during his lead-out.

Froome + EBH + Porte + Kanstantsin Siutsou + Lars Peter Nordhaug(is he riding?) for Wiggins.

To be honest, I can't see Sky dominating both the sprints, the mountain stages and the transition stages. They'll have to make some choices. Best decision would be to let Cavendish go home after the third week(unless something happened to Wiggo).

How's going to finish the leadout then? That's what I had EBH tagged for.

I'd prefer that everything went towards a Wiggins win myself, Cav can manage off of other peoples trains.

 

[Froome19]

It's more Cav needing people to drag him over the mountains who could be helping Wiggo and tiring out the domestiques.

It could work, but it could go very wrong and people seem to have forgotten about it.

Nah all Cav needs is one rider in Eisel and if he is having a bad day then maybe Pate/Knees (whoever gets that last spot)
As what do you expect them to do? All they need to do is to ride and make sure Cav is holding onto the back wheel.

 

[El Pistolero]

How's going to finish the leadout then? That's what I had EBH tagged for.

I'd prefer that everything went towards a Wiggins win myself, Cav can manage off of other peoples trains.

I suppose EBH can work for both Cav and Wiggins. But Cav has proven many times he can win without a lead-out anyway.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Very unfair competition considering they have a higher budget than most other teams.

LOL Yes how unfair as its never ever been done before has it.Since i started to watch cycle racing in the mid 80,s it was La Vie Claire and has been going on ever since so its not just started with Sky has it.