Who would have Two Big Wins in their Career?

[jaylew]

Re:

People should watch today andalucia's stage and they will know why valverde isn't a lengend at all.
Disgraceful wheelsucker that is moe worried in beating contador than winning/distance his rivals

Early leader in the worst post of February competition.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re:

People should watch today andalucia's stage and they will know why valverde isn't a lengend at all.
Disgraceful wheelsucker that is moe worried in beating contador than winning/distance his rivals

If you win you by defition beat all the others, Contador included. Valverde won today.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There's a mountaintop finish tomorrow in the Ruta del Sol. Valverde made Contador do more work today, and beat him. Was it the most gripping thing to watch as a result? No. But we'll see tomorrow whether that pays off.

He might also have a bit more in the legs after winning the Vuelta a Murcia after a 70km solo on Sunday.

 

[El Pistolero]

It takes at least 5 big wins to be considered a legend. Unless you do something special like Marco Pantani (his tragic death also contributed to his legendary status).

Valverde certainly isn't a legend in my book. Mostly because of the way he races in the big ones.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

It takes at least 5 big wins to be considered a legend. Unless you do something special like Marco Pantani (his tragic death also contributed to his legendary status).

Valverde certainly isn't a legend in my book. Mostly because of the way he races in the big ones.

You are one of the more cheeky members on cyclingnews. Valverde has 4 'big' victories, Nibali has 5. Is that a coincidence?! :lol:

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

I said nothing about memorable. I just stressed how Boonen and Valverde aren't comparable. Valverde does have an image of a passive and conservative racer, who prefers to bank a secure podium place than risking everything for the win. There's a good reason for that. He is the antithesis of Vino as a racer, which is why the later is more legendary despite slightly inferior palmares.

More legendary to who?! To me certainly isn't!

More legendary because he had genuinely memorable victories

-beat the sprinters on the Champs-Elysees

-won the Olympics on a largely flat route

-won Liege after a 50k 2-man break

He may had some more memorable wins, but that don't makes him a more legendary rider. Or do you think Pantani is more of a legend than Indurain?

Nice try, but the comparison was between Vinokourov and Valverde in case you haven't noticed.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

I said nothing about memorable. I just stressed how Boonen and Valverde aren't comparable. Valverde does have an image of a passive and conservative racer, who prefers to bank a secure podium place than risking everything for the win. There's a good reason for that. He is the antithesis of Vino as a racer, which is why the later is more legendary despite slightly inferior palmares.

More legendary to who?! To me certainly isn't!

More legendary because he had genuinely memorable victories

-beat the sprinters on the Champs-Elysees

-won the Olympics on a largely flat route

-won Liege after a 50k 2-man break

He may had some more memorable wins, but that don't makes him a more legendary rider. Or do you think Pantani is more of a legend than Indurain?

Nice try, but the comparison was between Vinokourov and Valverde in case you haven't noticed.

I don't consider Nibali a legend yet, he needs one more Giro win. I said "at least 5 big wins". 5 Lombardia wins or LBL wins doesn't make one a legend if he didn't win anything else. Roberto Heras has four big wins, but it's just the Vuelta four times. Definitely not a legend, people barely talk about him anymore even.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

I said nothing about memorable. I just stressed how Boonen and Valverde aren't comparable. Valverde does have an image of a passive and conservative racer, who prefers to bank a secure podium place than risking everything for the win. There's a good reason for that. He is the antithesis of Vino as a racer, which is why the later is more legendary despite slightly inferior palmares.

More legendary to who?! To me certainly isn't!

More legendary because he had genuinely memorable victories

-beat the sprinters on the Champs-Elysees

-won the Olympics on a largely flat route

-won Liege after a 50k 2-man break

He may had some more memorable wins, but that don't makes him a more legendary rider. Or do you think Pantani is more of a legend than Indurain?

Nice try, but the comparison was between Vinokourov and Valverde in case you haven't noticed.

Swap names (Indurain/Bala - Pantani/Vino), and that's it!

 

[Netserk]

Yeah, totally comparable comparisons...

Valverde/Vino: 3xLiege+Vuelta vs. 2xLiege+Vuelta+OGRR
Pantani/Indurain: Giro+Tour vs. 2xGiro+5xTour

Same same.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

Yeah, totally comparable comparisons...

Valverde/Vino: 3xLiege+Vuelta vs. 2xLiege+Vuelta+OGRR
Pantani/Indurain: Giro+Tour vs. 2xGiro+5xTour

Same same.

Expand your research a bit,
Valverde 4-time World No.1 +6x Top 5, 99 wins, 42 WT wins
Vino 0-times No.1 (of course), 0-times Top 5, 56 wins, 31 WT win

Better?

 

[Netserk]

And now do the same for the other comparison. Otherwise, they wouldn't be comparable.

But (/also) because of the thread topic, I think top wins are all that is needed here.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

And now do the same for the other comparison. Otherwise, they wouldn't be comparable.

But (/also) because of the thread topic, I think top wins are all that is needed here.

Maybe, but I don't buy that. I like the broad picture. Or we should just ask Boonen

 

[Netserk]

Have you read the OP?

 

[El Pistolero]

By the way, Indurain is not a legend. Pantani is.

Google their name: Indurain gives you 1 million hits, Pantani gives you over 2 million hits.

Youtube: Indurain: 32000 results, Pantani: 75000 results.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

By the way, Indurain is not a legend. Pantani is.

Google their name: Indurain gives you 1 million hits, Pantani gives you over 2 million hits.

Youtube: Indurain: 32000 results, Pantani: 75000 results.

Both are legends, my friend. Number of hits? I'm not so sure about how it relates to the topic. BigMig is alive and well, Marco is the center of conspiracy theories. I can go on and on...

Indurain, not a legend...the first (only) to win 5 consecutive TdF. Giro-TdF double anyone? Twice. And the feat that lives in history: Luxembourg 1992. That was like Al Capone beating guys to death with a baseball bat.

And many more...

Parts of the discussion about these two don't belong here. But looking at their records as it stand today, they are both legends.

Hits: Hinault has 431,000. And 10,200 on YouTube. The Number 2 ever IMO.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

By the way, Indurain is not a legend. Pantani is.

Google their name: Indurain gives you 1 million hits, Pantani gives you over 2 million hits.

Youtube: Indurain: 32000 results, Pantani: 75000 results.

Both are legends, my friend. Number of hits? I'm not so sure about how it relates to the topic. BigMig is alive and well, Marco is the center of conspiracy theories. I can go on and on...

Indurain, not a legend...the first (only) to win 5 consecutive TdF. Giro-TdF double anyone? Twice. And the feat that lives in history: Luxembourg 1992. That was like Al Capone beating guys to death with a baseball bat.

And many more...

Parts of the discussion about these two don't belong here. But looking at their records as it stand today, they are both legends.

Hits: Hinault has 431,000. And 10,200 on YouTube. The Number 2 ever IMO.

Indurain was a boring rider with no personality or charisma to speak of. He's the kind of cyclist we don't need and he should be forgotten. The fact that someone with only a fraction of his palmares is much more known speaks volumes.

There are quite a few cyclists with tragic deaths (Luis Ocana for example), none of them reached the status of Pantani however. It's not just his tragic death, but his aggressive racing style that made him a legend.

And Hinault was a long time ago, so it's normal that he isn't as prominent on the internet as more recent cyclists. I compared two riders from the same era.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

Indurain was a boring rider with no personality or charisma to speak of. He's the kind of cyclist we don't need and he should be forgotten. The fact that someone with only a fraction of his palmares is much more known speaks volumes.

There are quite a few cyclists with tragic deaths (Luis Ocana for example), none of them reached the status of Pantani however. It's not just his tragic death, but his aggressive racing style that made him a legend.

And Hinault was a long time ago, so it's normal that he isn't as prominent on the internet as more recent cyclists. I compared two riders from the same era.

Fair enough on your last point.

You can't possibly compare Ocana and Pantani's deaths though (RIP). No mafia hit theories, way after his prime...but you are bringing up an interesting point about Luis Ocana: he's a legend not so much for his wins, but for the earthquake that he almost pulled. The TdF '71, the story about Merckx, has a Luis Ocana chapter attached to it.

So it's not two or five wins that make you a rider that people will remember, a legend. It's the story...as well as the record. You need some of both.

PS: Indurain was boring, yes. So is Froome (except for the run, but it never happened, Sky whined their way to a tie). And so was Anquetil. But in their own way, they would club you, destroy you, and stick to you the rest of the way. Luxembourg '92 for example was epic and seems to be way underrated. What Indurain did was unreal . It ruined the rest of the Tour. Yes. It was a thing, stuff that makes a legend. I saw it live, horrified. Like a Friday the 13th movie.

 

[jaylew]

Re:

By the way, Indurain is not a legend. Pantani is.

Google their name: Indurain gives you 1 million hits, Pantani gives you over 2 million hits.

Youtube: Indurain: 32000 results, Pantani: 75000 results.

Which means Indurain's not a legend? That's ridiculous. How many of Pantani's hits were about his suicide and PED issues?

Lots of greats in all kinds of sports are "boring". Being flashy or exciting is not a prerequisite for legendary status in my mind. Hell, Tim Duncan is arguably the greatest power forward ever but he was boring to most. No one in their right mind is going to say he's not a legend of the sport.

Anyway, they're both legends and it's kind of a silly argument anyway. Legend is completely subjective and everyone will have their own criteria.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re:

By the way, Indurain is not a legend. Pantani is.

Google their name: Indurain gives you 1 million hits, Pantani gives you over 2 million hits.

Youtube: Indurain: 32000 results, Pantani: 75000 results.

This seems like a good measure. Legends by google and youtube hits. I tried making a list, feel free to expand on it.

1. Richie Porte. 918.000 hits on google, 14.000 hits on youtube.
2. Marco Pantani. 618.000 hits on google, 65.600 hits on youtube.
3. Jan Ullrich. 477.000 hits on google. 46.700 hits on youtube.
4. Geraint Thomas. 523.000 hits on google, 18.000 hits on youtube.
5. Fausto Coppi. 507.000 hits on google, 13.500 hits on youtube.
6. Miguel Indurain. 419.000 hits on google, 15.500 hits on youtube.
7. Marcel Kittel. 446.000 hits on google, 16.700 hits on youtube.
8. Bernard Hinault. 428.000 hits on google, 10.200 hits on youtube.
9. Thomas Voeckler. 404.000 hits on google, 11.300 hits on youtube
10. Jacques Anquetil. 426.000 hits on google, 2.160 hits on youtube.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Re:

By the way, Indurain is not a legend. Pantani is.

Google their name: Indurain gives you 1 million hits, Pantani gives you over 2 million hits.

Youtube: Indurain: 32000 results, Pantani: 75000 results.

This seems like a good measure. Legends by google and youtube hits. I tried making a list, feel free to expand on it.

1. Richie Porte. 918.000 hits on google, 14.000 hits on youtube.
2. Marco Pantani. 618.000 hits on google, 65.600 hits on youtube.
3. Jan Ullrich. 477.000 hits on google. 46.700 hits on youtube.
4. Geraint Thomas. 523.000 hits on google, 18.000 hits on youtube.
5. Fausto Coppi. 507.000 hits on google, 13.500 hits on youtube.
6. Miguel Indurain. 419.000 hits on google, 15.500 hits on youtube.
7. Marcel Kittel. 446.000 hits on google, 16.700 hits on youtube.
8. Bernard Hinault. 428.000 hits on google, 10.200 hits on youtube.
9. Thomas Voeckler. 404.000 hits on google, 11.300 hits on youtube
10. Jacques Anquetil. 426.000 hits on google, 2.160 hits on youtube.

SAGAN 9,860,000 Google 656 000 Youtube

 

[rick james]

Re:

By the way, Indurain is not a legend. Pantani is.

Google their name: Indurain gives you 1 million hits, Pantani gives you over 2 million hits.

Youtube: Indurain: 32000 results, Pantani: 75000 results.

holy dog ***...are you really saying google hits and YouTube hits are a marker for legendary status?

I've some crazy things posted on here and yours trumps the lot

 

[rick james]

Re:

By the way, Indurain is not a legend. Pantani is.

Google their name: Indurain gives you 1 million hits, Pantani gives you over 2 million hits.

Youtube: Indurain: 32000 results, Pantani: 75000 results.

Froome 4,710,000 google results

legend enough for you?

 

[Bardamu]

Those people here who don't consider Valverde a legend of this era.... Do they even watch cycling?

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

By the way, Indurain is not a legend. Pantani is.

Google their name: Indurain gives you 1 million hits, Pantani gives you over 2 million hits.

Youtube: Indurain: 32000 results, Pantani: 75000 results.

Both are legends, my friend. Number of hits? I'm not so sure about how it relates to the topic. BigMig is alive and well, Marco is the center of conspiracy theories. I can go on and on...

Indurain, not a legend...the first (only) to win 5 consecutive TdF. Giro-TdF double anyone? Twice. And the feat that lives in history: Luxembourg 1992. That was like Al Capone beating guys to death with a baseball bat.

And many more...

Parts of the discussion about these two don't belong here. But looking at their records as it stand today, they are both legends.

Hits: Hinault has 431,000. And 10,200 on YouTube. The Number 2 ever IMO.

Indurain was a boring rider with no personality or charisma to speak of. He's the kind of cyclist we don't need and he should be forgotten. The fact that someone with only a fraction of his palmares is much more known speaks volumes.

There are quite a few cyclists with tragic deaths (Luis Ocana for example), none of them reached the status of Pantani however. It's not just his tragic death, but his aggressive racing style that made him a legend.

And Hinault was a long time ago, so it's normal that he isn't as prominent on the internet as more recent cyclists. I compared two riders from the same era.

Wow. I don't think I've read a more disappointing statement about a great rider.

 

[Echoes]

No I don't. I watch cyclocross.