Who's made the most out of limited talent?

[BroDeal]

Indurain, Riis, Pantani all withdrew from their first GT. When did Armstrong start working with Michele anyway?

Go to the Clinic and they will tell you all about it, including his past on as an amateur on the national team.

IYes they would. And so would you

The only reason for that is that it is knowable. You can definitely point to riders who are weak relative to the average pro but have still had a decent career. The true answer is one of the dopers, but it is hard to tell what their true level of talent is and there are always fools who still believe in fairy tales.

 

[jens_attacks]

brodeal has the knowledge but is a pessimist as big as you can get.so do you like anyone of these athletes?
as for me,i like their word,i like their credibility lol and that's it.

 

[Magnus]

@BroDeal:
Don't you think Armstrong's '93-'96 performances shows talent?

 

[Altitude]

Riis for sure. Ugrumov. Apparently Ballan.

As an Armstrong fan, I would say that he does have a place in this discussion. Not only beacuse he optimized his doping program, but because he trained like a psychopath, his dedication bordered on pathological, and mentally he was probably the toughest rider in the peloton. If he trained like Ullrich for example, he would have won zero Tours. He even used to say how much more talented Ullrich was, which was a clever mind game to play with Jan. Also surrounded himself with the strongest team you could imagine, had the best director in Bruyneel, etc etc.

It's difficult to say if a guy like Ricco really has a ton of natural ability, since I imagine he was doping from the age of like 16 (or earlier).

 

[BroDeal]

@BroDeal:
Don't you think Armstrong's '93-'96 performances shows talent?

Not enough to win a Tour, not even remotely close.

 

[Angliru]

Riis for sure. Ugrumov. Apparently Ballan.

As an Armstrong fan, I would say that he does have a place in this discussion. Not only beacuse he optimized his doping program, but because he trained like a psychopath, his dedication bordered on pathological, and mentally he was probably the toughest rider in the peloton. If he trained like Ullrich for example, he would have won zero Tours. He even used to say how much more talented Ullrich was, which was a clever mind game to play with Jan. Also surrounded himself with the strongest team you could imagine, had the best director in Bruyneel, etc etc.

It's difficult to say if a guy like Ricco really has a ton of natural ability, since I imagine he was doping from the age of like 16 (or earlier).

How can you even say this with any certainty??? His high profile and the focus on his every action makes every testament to his mental strength as it compares to his competitors and the rest of the pro's up for serious debate.
This is comparable to the "most tested athlete" and the originator of rapid cadence nonsense.

 

[pedaling squares]

...his dedication bordered on pathological, and mentally he was probably the toughest rider in the peloton. If he trained like Ullrich for example, he would have won zero Tours...

That sounds like Chapter 7, verses 5 & 6 from The Myth handbook. I will give Armstrong respect as a talented and dedicated (classics) rider but I don't buy the line that lazy Jan lounged his way around France a few times and stumbled across the podium while doing so.

And, there's more but:

Professional road racing A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

 

[Ryaguas]

He was considered almost as big a talent as Contador and hasn't performed even nearly as well, so I don't think he belongs in this category.

That sounds like Chapter 7, verses 5 & 6 from The Myth handbook. I will give Armstrong respect as a talented and dedicated (classics) rider but I don't buy the line that lazy Jan lounged his way around France a few times and stumbled across the podium while doing so.

And, there's more but:

Relax we have a nice conversation here... not even the mods are sending warnings...

As always... BroDeal with his quality posts! +1

 

[skidmark]

But Freire doesn't belong in this topic. He's smart, yes, but he's also incredibly talented. I think it was Nick Nuyens who said Freire is the most talented rider in the peloton today. Making the most of limited talent almost always involves working very hard. Freire doesn't work very hard, quite the opposite. He trains about half as much as a regular pro.

Basso, as mentioned upthread, seems to be a better example. Although you could consider the right fighting mentality a talent in itself, in which case he is very talented.

Yeah, you're right. I realized the same thing, thinking it over. I guess I conflated the ideas of 'winning at random times when you aren't expected to' to 'making the most of what you've got'.

edit: I see a few people have chimed in on it too; yeah, agreed that it's more 'winning on no training' which actually implies a ton of talent.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Eh, are you talking about the Christophe Moreau who got busted for steroids, got caught up in the festina affair and confessed using Epo or are you talking about another Christophe Moreau?

Yeah it was the 90's, FFS.

 

[Altitude]

That sounds like Chapter 7, verses 5 & 6 from The Myth handbook. I will give Armstrong respect as a talented and dedicated (classics) rider but I don't buy the line that lazy Jan lounged his way around France a few times and stumbled across the podium while doing so.

And, there's more but:

People might use the points I made to try and convince others of the ONE myth, which is that he never doped (although I don't think there's anyone who even believes this anymore, so no point bringing it up). However, that doesn't make those points untrue. Ullrich had the gift of being able to train half assed and make the podium at the biggest races. Look at the 98 Tour ffs. Put on a sh!t load of weight during not only the off season but also during the race season, then starved himself for a few weeks leading up to the Tour and finished second only because he lost 9 minutes to Pantani on the way to Les Duex Alpe. Armstrong trained harder and smarter than his competition, plain and simple. Also had a great program, teammates, director, as I listed above.

 

[pedaling squares]

Relax we have a nice conversation here... not even the mods are sending warnings...

I really think you misread the tone of my message. Nice conversations can include disagreements, it doesn't mean we're going to drop the gloves.

 

[badboyberty]

Vote for Robic:

from Wikipedia:

Robic moved to Paris In February 1940 and became a cycle mechanic for the Sausin company. He started racing but made a poor impression on journalists. René de Latour of Sporting Cyclist wrote:
If anybody had told you or me in 1939 that this skinny kid of 17, with ears large enough to be of help with a back wind blowing—if we had been told that here was a future winner of the Tour de France, we would just have laughed. When his name first became known to journalists, he quickly became known as le farfadet de la lande bretonne—the hobgoblin of the Brittany moor. His arrival in the Paris area was not sensational. Robic won a few races out in the villages but this did not mean much. We had hundreds of boys like him in France.

Won the 1947 TdF plus a couple stage wins in later editions, but only won a handful of significant road races and cyclocross events in total. And even the TdF he won he won on time bonuses.

Who knows, maybe we just missed his wunderkind years to WW2, but he was definitely not the all round talent of contemporaries like Koblet, Bobet, Coppi or Bartali.

Of contemporary riders I'd have to point the finger at Robbie McEwan. I doubt he was ever the fastest sprinter in the peloton, he just had a good kick and enough skills and wits to make sure he often had the fastest sprinter lead him out.

 

[BillytheKid]

Vote Voigt!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zreFKnBLDjg

Sich ranhalten! (nose to the grindstone)

 

[Bavarianrider]

Armstrong, and it's not even close.

Notable mentions. Gerdemann, Fothen.

 

[ChrisE]

i just mess up threaths

Anybody got an idea about this?

 

[Berzin]

I call BS:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-appeals-contador-decision-to-court-of-arbitration-for-sport

What you mean by the Beloki comparison I truly don't get. I believe general consensus is that Beloki didn't get very much out of his talent.

Beloki was no where near the talent Contador is. Never had any great accelerations in the mountains and his time-trialing was forgettable.

Whoever mentions these two riders in the same sentence needs to be drug-tested themselves for excessive amounts of hyperbole and conjecture.

 

[Altitude]

Beloki was no where near the talent Contador is. Never had any great accelerations in the mountains and his time-trialing was forgettable.

Whoever mentions these two riders in the same sentence needs to be drug-tested themselves for excessive amounts of hyperbole and conjecture.

Check out the first sentence of your post.

 

[mastersracer]

how about anyone on PDM in the early 90s, like Dhaenens or De Wolf. Nothing beats soloing off the front for the finish at the WC in Japan. Given where the thread is, Rominger would also be an honorable mention for his ridiculous hour record...

 

[BillytheKid]

how about anyone on PDM in the early 90s, like Dhaenens or De Wolf. Nothing beats soloing off the front for the finish at the WC in Japan. Given where the thread is, Rominger would also be an honorable mention for his ridiculous hour record...

Yes! 1990 WC Road Race: Back when they put a real climb on the circuit. Another good group of nominees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7AWYKwsvHk

 

[Stingray34]

Allessandro Ballan

His former prepatores have said he would never have made it without the drugs.

 

[BroDeal]

Armstrong, and it's not even close.

Notable mentions. Gerdemann, Fothen.

Fothen. LOL. There is a rider who fell off the map once Gerlosteiner broke up and the bio passport started, and he should have been entering his peak years.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

At the beginning of that year, 1999, O'Reilly was made head soigneur (italics) in the US Postal team and though that brought with it logistical headaches, she continued to enjoy working closely with Armstrong. From their first meeting at the beginning of the previous season she and he hit it off well. Maybe it was the seriousness with which she went about her work that he admired, or her penchant for saying what was on her mind. He would also have enjoyed her lack of preciousness, her ability to mix in the company of males and hold her own. And she was a very good massage therapist, by far the best on the team. None of the other riders were surprised the leader wanted his massage from O'Reilly. He showed his regard for her and mechanic Julien de Vriese by presenting each with a rolex watch at the end of the 1999 Tour de France. O'Reilly was torn between her liking for Armstrong and her misgivings about the environment in which she worked. She believed doping was part of cycling's culture and that Armstrong was part of that world.

Little things. She remembers a day on the Criterium du Dauphine Libere, three weeks before the start of the 1999 Tour. "One evening during the race I was talking to Lance and he told me his haematocrit level was 41 that day. I wasn't thinking and I just said, ?that's terrible, 41, what are you going to do?' Everyone in cycling knew you couldn't win with a haematocrit of 41. He just looked up at me and said ?Emma, you know what I am going to do! What everybody does.' And I went ?oh God, yeah.' It was like, how could I be so stupid to ask. I made a note of that in the diary that I kept: ?L was 41 today and when I asked him what he was about to do, he just laughed and said ?you know, what everybody does'."

http://web.mac.com/cebiner/Mr._Cedric_Ebiners_Web/Blank.html

Final GC after Stage 7

1. Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Casino 30.25.19
2. Jonathan Vaughters (USA) US Postal Service 1.14
3. Wladimir Belli (Ita) Festina-Lotus 3.48
4. Joseba Beloki Dorronsoro (Spa) Euskatel-Euskadi 3.57
5. Stéphane Heulot (Fra) La Française des Jeux 4.35
6. Kevin Livingston (USA) US Postal Service 4.47
7. Unaï Osa (Spa) Banesto 4.48
8. Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service 5.27
9. François Simon (Fra) Crédit Agricole 6.37
10. Gilles Bouvard (Fra) Home Market-Charleroi 6.41

 

[danjo007]

why do people say voeckler is talented, when he's just allowed by the peleton to "look" talented.
hanging in there when he shouldnt isnt talent, its "making the most out of not having any"

 

[samerics]

why do people say voeckler is talented, when he's just allowed by the peleton to "look" talented.
hanging in there when he shouldnt isnt talent, its "making the most out of not having any"

No talent at all? To finish how he did in the Tour? No one is saying he is LeMond but that is just ridiculous!