Who's really responsible?

[thehog]

For the UCI by making doping illegal but by tolerating it at the same time gives them tremendous control over the riders and results.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yeah, I've already said that, but again, the original question was, who is really responsible for doping? Well, when phrased that way, that would be the athlete's themselves. It's not the UCI, it's not the Ferrari's, it's not the Bruyneel's - they aid and abet and encourage, no question there whatsoever, but to paraphrase Truman, the buck stops with the guys poking themselves with the needles.

If doping was a small problem of just a few individuals then I would agree that those individuals are responsible - but in cycling doping is a systematic problem.

 

[JRTinMA]

Thanks again for proving my point. Even you admit the fans harassed anyone who questioned the myth

Its not all you have in common, people like you and Mitchell love to exercise your first amendment rights but immediately **** and moan when it gets turned around on you. Additionally you love to label people with terms like McCarthyism, white hoods, fanboys and trolls. In that way you are both very much like Armstrong himself.

 

[mwbyrd]

Guys,

Just had a chance to come back and check the thread. Big thanks to everyone for their responses. It's been awhile since I read a thread that actually stayed on point.

And I'm glad we can discuss the bigger problems - the system as a whole and why it's broken.

Mike

 

[VeloCity]

If doping was a small problem of just a few individuals then I would agree that those individuals are responsible - but in cycling doping is a systematic problem.

Doping is a large problem in cycling (and probably most other sports) because - even if the overseeing agency was completely competent and honest - it's next to impossible to stop it. Riders know it; DS' know it; the Ferrari's know it. No anti-doping agency has the power to stop it. If you know you can probably get away with it, that you can beat the testing, there's little incentive not to dope. It's less a systemic problem than it one of simple logistics - there's almost no way of preventing athletes from doping. So they do it.

 

[Maxiton]

I think that's the biggest myth of all, that doping only exists because the UCI tolerates it. Again, I'm no fan of the UCI, but to me this idea that they can make it disappear if they really wanted to is just a way of shifting responsibility away from the riders.

Let's say that the UCI wasn't corrupt, etc. How exactly would they end doping in the peloton?

Difficult. But not rocket science.

Imagine, if you will, a clean, transparent oversight body that has at heart the best interests of the sport, the riders, the fans, and, by extension, the teams and sponsors. Imagine that it has a strong sense of its own integrity, and that it's run by individuals of truly upstanding character who eschew making "extra income." Let's call it UCI (Union for Cycling Integrity).

The first thing it would do is to put in place rules whereby officers, employees, and contractors for UCI could not have any financial interest in any of the teams or sponsors of the sport, or in anything else that might be seen as a conflict of interest. The next thing it would do is assign drug testing to a body independent of itself. This body would be well funded and tasked with testing widely and deeply. (Perhaps the drug testing body could be connected with Interpol so that it had legitimate investigative powers.) After that, it would lobby hard to criminalize PED trafficking and use the world over, in the same way they've done it in France. At the same time, it would make the sporting penalties much stronger. (Say, four or five years' suspension for first offense, lifetime ban for second.) It would also hold teams and team officials responsible for rider doping behavior, so that there would be stiff penalties for them as well, including suspensions, bans, and loss of license.

In other words, it would make clear to all concerned that it is serious about no doping. Penalties would be so great, and the chances of getting caught so real, that it simply wouldn't be worth the risk.

Doping is a large problem in cycling (and probably most other sports) because - even if the overseeing agency was completely competent and honest - it's next to impossible to stop it. Riders know it; DS' know it; the Ferrari's know it. No anti-doping agency has the power to stop it. If you know you can probably get away with it, that you can beat the testing, there's little incentive not to dope. It's less a systemic problem than it one of simple logistics - there's almost no way of preventing athletes from doping. So they do it.

See above.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Doping is a large problem in cycling (and probably most other sports) because - even if the overseeing agency was completely competent and honest - it's next to impossible to stop it....

99% of that is nonsense. Back test samples 3-5 years and take away results for positives for 3-5 years. Let's assume for a minute the UCI isn't hiding positives if they start back testing.

That alone would discourage doping. As has been stated many times now, the system is not set up to discourage doping.

What's left is blood transfusions. No test that I'm aware of for detecting a transfusion.

 

[Maxiton]

99% of that is nonsense. Back test samples 3-5 years and take away results for positives for 3-5 years. Let's assume for a minute the UCI isn't hiding positives if they start back testing.

That alone would discourage doping. As has been stated many times now, the system is not set up to discourage doping.

What's left is blood transfusions. No test that I'm aware of for detecting a transfusion.

Bingo. That right there would go a long way toward solving the problem.

(It would also help to convince the public, and prospective sponsors, that cycling is not run through with corruption - because right now they think it is. It has little legitimacy as a sporting competition and that's why it gets little notice.)

As far as transfusions go, while it's true of course that you can't test for them, it's pretty hard to dispose of all the medical waste (bloody tubing, bags, needles) it leaves behind, if somebody really wants to find such waste. And when teams have their own refrigeration truck (as Luiquigas did at this year's Giro), it should be subject to inspection.

 

[BotanyBay]

This game is ill from the inside, money and corruption destroyed this sport.

As is the Earth itself. We're all literally bombarded with truisms about the badness that exists out there from the time we're little kids. And being that institutions of this scale are typically ALL ill from the inside, all we're left with are our own individual choices that we eventually make.

We've seen the enemy, and it is us. Eventually you have to recognize that you've also been an enabler and be willing to take a stand and say / do something.

 

[lostintime]

As is the Earth itself. We're all literally bombarded with truisms about the badness that exists out there from the time we're little kids. And being that institutions of this scale are typically ALL ill from the inside, all we're left with are our own individual choices that we eventually make.

We've seen the enemy, and it is us. Eventually you have to recognize that you've also been an enabler and be willing to take a stand and say / do something.

Yes. Boogey men .. it's always "them". lol
We create our own sense of reality.
Reminds me of the classic Twilight Zone Episode .... The Monsters are Due On Maple Street . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FhENDHul6Q&feature=related
Create a little chaos and watch people destroy each other over finding "who's to blame" for the mess we created for ourselves. I wonder how many really get it? ?

 

[MacRoadie]

Yes. Boogey men .. it's always "them". lol
We create our own sense of reality.
Reminds me of the classic Twilight Zone Episode .... The Monsters are Due On Maple Street . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FhENDHul6Q&feature=related
Create a little chaos and watch people destroy each other over finding "who's to blame" for the mess we created for ourselves. I wonder how many really get it? ?

That must make Pat and Hein the two aliens...

 

[Maxiton]

That must make Pat and Hein the two aliens...

Or else it makes them very happy. "You're right, it is your fault. We've just given you what you wanted. Now if you'll excuse us we have an appointment with our banker."

 

[VeloCity]

99% of that is nonsense. Back test samples 3-5 years and take away results for positives for 3-5 years. Let's assume for a minute the UCI isn't hiding positives if they start back testing.

That alone would discourage doping. As has been stated many times now, the system is not set up to discourage doping.

What's left is blood transfusions. No test that I'm aware of for detecting a transfusion.

As Thomas Frei said, the only reason he tested positive for EPO was because he forgot to drink enough water. Landis made it abundantly clear how easy it was to get around testing.

Back testing would do nothing - if they're not detecting EPO and whatnot in samples at the time, they're not going to detect it in samples 3-5 years old, either. Remember the list of stuff Landis was on? And yet he got nicked once for a bit too much testosterone. Either that's a huge coverup over the years or simply that the tests are inadequate, ie largely useless.