Why Alberto Contador is Cycling's One True Champion

[gooner]

Re: Re:

He's a fraud. End of.

I find it surprising that you don't like maxitons post because what he is doing is exactly the same thing that the footy and cycling journos that you always praise, do all the time.

He takes a simple mundane every day action from the sport, and makes it out to be something far more meaningful and heroic and historically important than it was
Like how in walshs book brailsford telling the team about the next stage was compared to an ex king giving a speech on the eve of a history changing battle. Froome setting foot on French soil was compared to the first Europeans setting foot in the Americas.

Similarly maxiton paints contador as taking a noble stand against lance. He praises him for embodying European tradition.

All contador really did was dope and pedal fast, but that's the 21st century sports media.

But haven't you appreciated this type of writing far more when it's about Brits / football players?

I sure have. Just a couple of weeks ago. I also pointed this out to Rob Draper with the Mail on twitter.

As was seen on Twitter, all these football journalists couldn't wait to have an opinion on the IAAF scandal. Yet couldn't be bothered to ask questions of their own sport.

I've never seen you call a single footballer a fraud for doping, the way you so easily do with Contador

He's a fraud. End of.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it. You offer the occasional courtesy "football has its problems" post or tweet, just to appear neutral but spend 99% of your time fawning over the players coaches and the whole institution and fantasizing about all the soap opera stories they provide.

Don't act like you aren't playing it both ways. If Contador is just a fraud, end of, then so is messi for example. Every ounce as much.

But you only call one out. Not the other.

Jeez, have you been reading any of my posts in the doping in football thread? A thread I might have the most posts in.

This isn't the first time you have played the football card with me, wrongly too I might add.

As I said yesterday, all doping is fraud and that includes footballers too.

This is a classic deflection, just because other sports have their laughable ignorance to the problem, doesn't make it OK to rational it more with cycling. That's the agenda I see here.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

When people talk about good dopers vs bad dopers, I usually think in terms of, say, Kimmage, Manzano and Jaksche vs Armstrong, Jalabert and Riis, not in terms of Contador vs Froome.

agree with Hrotha.
maybe stylish dopers vs bad style dopers
for sure not good vs bad

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

He's a fraud. End of.

He won 3 GTs by the time he was the same age as Froome when he got 2nd at La Vuelta. He had much better U23 results too.

There's astonishing natural talent there but I wouldn't go as far as the OP though, it was a case of right person, right time. Always believed that the clen positive was pay back for 2009. McQuaid almost certainly asked for "extra special scrutiny"

Definitely. Pretty obvious, isn't it? Pretty hard to see how any long term fan of cycling could not see that, if they can see anything at all. And yet it appears you and I are in a minority. Maybe there just aren't that many long term fans of cycling left.

 

[Maxiton]

It seems you are basically romanticising the fact that he doped up very heavy to beat lance.

But Hitch, isn't praising an exploit in cycling always romanticising doping, in some way? In my opinion it is best to view cycling seperate from all the doping drama.

Not if you are trying to argue this particular doped rider did something different to the other ones with quotes like this.

"brought it back to where it rightfully belongs: away from the corrupt creeps controlling the sport"

Still waiting for your reply, Hitch.

 

[Maxiton]

But Hitch, isn't praising an exploit in cycling always romanticising doping, in some way?

well yeah, and that's where the whole circus starts, the primitive fact that so many still need heroes to worship.
there's nothing principally wrong with that, we're all human and all need something to help deflect from our mundane problems. For some that's sport, for others its music, and some just grab the bottle.

But it explains the insane amounts of gullibility among fans and their blind trust in pro athletes, and so it's the seed of fraud and cheating as it creates a culture among fans and press alike where fraud and cheating is tacitly accepted.

Football is the most clear-cut case in point, all these guys making millions a year and still defrauding the tax system. Yet the fans/press don't care.

Contador being heroified by some in spite of his doping is also a symptom, although peanuts compared to what soccer players get away with and are apologized for.

I'm pretty happy to have no sporting heroes left, even if in the clinic this is often awkwardly claimed to mean that you can't enjoy cycling (or sport in general).

I don't really have any sporting heroes except Muhammad Ali. But when someone does something heroic, especially in a sport as corrupt and controlled as WT cycling was under Verdruggem and Armstrong/Bruyneel, then I think they should get credit for it.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

When people talk about good dopers vs bad dopers, I usually think in terms of, say, Kimmage, Manzano and Jaksche vs Armstrong, Jalabert and Riis, not in terms of Contador vs Froome.

agree with Hrotha.
maybe stylish dopers vs bad style dopers
for sure not good vs bad

It's not about one kind of doper vs another, per se. It's about human drama which happens to take place inside a sport that's always been doped; but, more to the point, about the spirit of a lone champion against tyranny.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Definitely. Pretty obvious, isn't it? Pretty hard to see how any long term fan of cycling could not see that, if they can see anything at all. And yet it appears you and I are in a minority. Maybe there just aren't that many long term fans of cycling left.

That is a weak argument. Anybody who doesn't agree with your flagrant speculation is not a long-term fan? I have yet to hear you address the favorable treatment Contador got at the hands of the UCI in 2010 over his clen positive.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Contador is a true cycling champion and our only hope against Sky. He has nothing to lose, he'll either beat them this year or get popped. Either way it's the end of his career. He is already looking very skinny so it's looking good so far, I just hope he won't drop dead thanks to the Official Team Sky Cocktail.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Gino Bartali is cycling's one true champion.

This is non-negotiable.

 

[carton]

Re:

Gino Bartali is cycling's one true champion.

This is non-negotiable.

QFT. If there has to be one, the pick is IMHO inarguable.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Gino Bartali is cycling's one true champion.

This is non-negotiable.

I have to agree.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

Definitely. Pretty obvious, isn't it? Pretty hard to see how any long term fan of cycling could not see that, if they can see anything at all. And yet it appears you and I are in a minority. Maybe there just aren't that many long term fans of cycling left.

That is a weak argument. Anybody who doesn't agree with your flagrant speculation is not a long-term fan? I have yet to hear you address the favorable treatment Contador got at the hands of the UCI in 2010 over his clen positive.

That's easy. Byzantine skulduggery 101. Verbruggen needs/wants to pop Contador. But it wouldn't do for the entire nation of Spain (and his pals there) to see his hand in it. So he puts pressure on someone to put pressure on someone else to get it done. Then he tells Pat, when the news breaks internally, to tell Contador they will do everything they can to keep the info on the down-low. Which they don't, of course. So the UCI is seen to be holding Cantador's hand on the left, while their right hand has the knife in his back.

Gino Bartali is cycling's one true champion.

This is non-negotiable.

Agreed. A given. (I actually make this point in the Will Contador be Juiced thread.) But when I say "cycling's one true champ" in the current context, I'm referring to contemporary cycling (although it could also include everything since Bartali).

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

That's easy. Byzantine skulduggery 101. Verbruggen needs/wants to pop Contador. But it wouldn't do for the entire nation of Spain (and his pals there) to see his hand in it. So he puts pressure on someone to put pressure on someone else to get it done. Then he tells Pat, when the news breaks internally, to tell Contador they will do everything they can to keep the info on the down-low. Which they don't, of course. So the UCI is seen to be holding Cantador's hand on the left, while their right hand has the knife in his back.

I would be interested to see what the graduate level course is like.

I don't see why it would be in Hein's best interest for his organization to look both weak and corrupt. Do you seriously not see why people might think a simpler explanation is more likely? Hint, it is not because we aren't long term fans.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

That's easy. Byzantine skulduggery 101. Verbruggen needs/wants to pop Contador. But it wouldn't do for the entire nation of Spain (and his pals there) to see his hand in it. So he puts pressure on someone to put pressure on someone else to get it done. Then he tells Pat, when the news breaks internally, to tell Contador they will do everything they can to keep the info on the down-low. Which they don't, of course. So the UCI is seen to be holding Cantador's hand on the left, while their right hand has the knife in his back.

I would be interested to see what the graduate level course is like.

Here it is, right here.

I don't see why it would be in Hein's best interest for his organization to look both weak and corrupt.

How does popping Contador make the UCI look weak and corrupt? On the contrary, it makes it look strong and fearless. And who does it hurt? Not UCI. It hurts ASO, and their precious race. Most of all, though, it hurts Contador, while clearing the way for someone or something more lucrative.

Do you seriously not see why people might think a simpler explanation is more likely? Hint, it is not because we aren't long term fans.

What is the simpler explanation? UCI fighting corruption in the sport?

 

[djpbaltimore]

Your kabuki theater explanation (i.e. that UCI wanted to be overtly seen be to trying to help Contador while secretly stabbing him in the back) makes them look corrupt (by trying to hush things up) and weak (failing to protect their standard bearer). Just about every other possible explanation is simpler according to the definition of byzantine.

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

Your kabuki theater explanation (i.e. that UCI wanted to be overtly seen be to trying to help Contador while secretly stabbing him in the back) makes them look corrupt (by trying to hush things up) and weak (failing to protect their standard bearer). Just about every other possible explanation is simpler according to the definition of byzantine.

How many people have actually seen that? Hint: not you.

 

[romnom]

Wasn't Contador vs. Andy & co. told to the audience in the old vs. new cycling format before Sky took over the role of the new clean hope of the sport that (yet again) cleaned up it's act? In my memory of the wonderful story of professional cycling Contador was painted as a villain long before the positive. And to me that really is the main thing Contador has going in his favor. He seems to play a part in all the stories. On and off the road. And in just about every possible role too.

 

[dwyatt]

Re: Re:

He won 3 GTs by the time he was the same age as Froome when he got 2nd at La Vuelta. He had much better U23 results too.

There's astonishing natural talent there but I wouldn't go as far as the OP though, it was a case of right person, right time. Always believed that the clen positive was pay back for 2009. McQuaid almost certainly asked for "extra special scrutiny"

I've never understood this view point - we know some cyclists are doping at 18 or even earlier, good u23 could just mean he started doping early. Someone being good from ayoung age means nothing to me.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Your kabuki theater explanation (i.e. that UCI wanted to be overtly seen be to trying to help Contador while secretly stabbing him in the back) makes them look corrupt (by trying to hush things up) and weak (failing to protect their standard bearer). Just about every other possible explanation is simpler according to the definition of byzantine.

How many people have actually seen that? Hint: not you.

Maybe you haven't been a fan of the sport long- term, but it was reported at the time that the UCI investigation was a bit shady. Ask Hans Seppelt. I would like to see similar media reports that claimed the ordeal made UCI seem strong and powerful as you claim.

Hint: maybe people haven't seen that because it doesn't exist.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

Your kabuki theater explanation (i.e. that UCI wanted to be overtly seen be to trying to help Contador while secretly stabbing him in the back) makes them look corrupt (by trying to hush things up) and weak (failing to protect their standard bearer). Just about every other possible explanation is simpler according to the definition of byzantine.

How many people have actually seen that? Hint: not you.

Maybe you haven't been a fan of the sport long- term, but it was reported at the time that the UCI investigation was a bit shady. Ask Hans Seppelt. I would like to see similar media reports that claimed the ordeal made UCI seem strong and powerful as you claim.

Hint: maybe people haven't seen that because it doesn't exist.

Who slipped the word to Seppelt and ARD?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: ?

Contador is a true cycling champion and our only hope against Sky.

...here for the swashbuckling alberto v those nasty team sky boys with their marginal

advantages of uci favouritism and higher moral stance

Mark L

Still not a clue what you're on about

 

[HelmutRoole]

It seems you are basically romanticising the fact that he doped up very heavy to beat lance.

He's a fraud. End of.

I find it surprising that you don't like maxitons post because what he is doing is exactly the same thing that the footy and cycling journos that you always praise, do all the time.

He takes a simple mundane every day action from the sport, and makes it out to be something far more meaningful and heroic and historically important than it was
Like how in walshs book brailsford telling the team about the next stage was compared to an ex king giving a speech on the eve of a history changing battle. Froome setting foot on French soil was compared to the first Europeans setting foot in the Americas.

Similarly maxiton paints contador as taking a noble stand against lance. He praises him for embodying European tradition.

All contador really did was dope and pedal fast, but that's the 21st century sports media.

But haven't you appreciated this type of writing far more when it's about Brits / football players?

Good response to Gooner, Hitch. But I think your response to me

It seems you are basically romanticising the fact that he doped up very heavy to beat lance.

All contador really did was dope and pedal fast, but that's the 21st century sports media.

and to my analysis, is essentially reductive. What I'm really doing, or trying to do, is what your namesake, Christopher Hitchens, did so much better and on a larger scale: expose the essential truth under a public narrative and uncover the machinations of the power brokers lurking behind the scenes. Of course, he was talking, usually, about the world at large and far more powerful people such as Henry Kissinger, whereas I'm talking about the microcosm that is pro cycling and pigmy tyrants like Hein Verbruggen. But the idea is the same in spirit - even if obviously not the same in level of execution.

The thing about sport is that it's supposed to be a metaphor for our own struggles. That's what makes it important, in the end, and what makes it interesting. And that's why people are up in arms when it's distorted by corruption and tyranny; but then corruption and tyranny are too often part of our own struggles, as well, so there can still be something to learn from it.

I see Verbruggen as the tyrant behind the sport. He was (and may still be) the man pulling the strings. Pat was just his stand in, his puppet. Pat is gone now, but Verbruggen is still there - so who knows about Cookson and their relationship.

Recall that no rider in seven years beat Armstrong, and nothing could touch him. Every rider who might have posed a real threat was busted, or driven out of the sport for some other reason. Pantani, the first threat, is the first example - and he ended up dead. I'm not saying, of course, that Verbruggen or Armstrong had anything to do with the death (although, frankly, if it turned out they did I would not be surprised). Ulrich was the perfect foil for Armstrong because he gave him a good race without ever winning. (An interviewer once asked Ulrich if he felt bad about never winning. "No, not at all," Ulrich replied, "I usually come in second to the best cyclist in the world. I think that's pretty good.")

Recall that Verbruggen and Armstrong were business partners, thick as thieves. Right after the latter's retirement they tried to buy the Tour itself, but the price was too high, they couldn't raise the financing. They needed to find a way to lower its value, or at the very least punish ASO for not selling it to them. Boom, Landis is popped. (I first pointed this out in an obscure thread on this forum, only to see Race Radio a few minutes later suggest the idea as though it were his own in a more popular thread, and then say he was going to get word to Landis. I hope he did.)

The whole Armstrong era was one big corrupt construction of Verbruggen, in my opinion. He and his closest cronies - Pat, Armstrong, Bruyneel, and probably a few lab heads - controlled the sport, and no team, no rider, no journalist dared stand up to them. Anyone who tried to had his career destroyed.

That all changed from inside their own team, with the young champion from Pinto. For him to do that, as I've written previously, was no small thing. It took cojones of cold steal, not carbon, and the heart of a champion.

By the way, it's good to read your input. I was wondering where you were.

Great post. Some of these angles I've never considered.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re:

Contador is a true cycling champion and our only hope against Sky.

A former rider of Saiz, Bruyneel and Riis is our hope against Sky?

The guy has huge talent, that's for sure, but to give him that attribute is a leap too far.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Contador is a true cycling champion and our only hope against Sky.

A former rider of Saiz, Bruyneel and Riis is our hope against Sky?

The guy has huge talent, that's for sure, but to give him that attribute is a leap too far.

It's not about clean vs doped. Clearly he is doped just like Team Sky, although I doubt he enjoys as much protection as they do. But he is the only rider capable of taking them down. In my opinion. He is clearly prepared to go to great lengths this year (I don't believe for a second he got this anorexic just by dieting and exercise). And that is necessary to beat Sky and in particular Froome. Other more knowledgable posters can probably suggest what sort of cocktail he is on but it is likely the same as the Sky riders. As I said, I am just praying he doesn't get popped (not unlikely) and doesn't die. Then he can go and have a way healthier life and I can go and not give a *** about this sport anymore

 

[gooner]

You're asking for a doped rider(you effectively encourage it) to beat what you see as doping with other riders.