Why are UK riders now more successful?

[esafosfina]

See... this is what happens when you don't pop into the clinic for ages... talk turns to literature!

I have some experience of the bad-old-days of the GB National squad, and latterly the difference the Lottery Funding (WCPP) made... not getting into the 'medical enhancement' argument but I have to say that funding made a rider feel valued and as such were more likely to train harder, and become more professional. I didn't race under Brailsford but I know several that have and do, and he seems to be the logical extension of Pete Keen and a progressive mindset.

Some time back I spoke to Wiggins and he stated quite reasonably that it wasn't that British riders 20 years ago weren't any good, it was just that the current generation have the breaks the former generation didn't. Coming from that former generation, I agree... I had as little to do with the National team as possible and made my own 'lucky breaks' in Belgium and abroad. Those that stayed in the UK stagnated and were ultimately lost to the sport.

Just a thought or two... cheers!

 

[horsinabout]

See... this is what happens when you don't pop into the clinic for ages... talk turns to literature!

I have some experience of the bad-old-days of the GB National squad, and latterly the difference the Lottery Funding (WCPP) made... not getting into the 'medical enhancement' argument but I have to say that funding made a rider feel valued and as such were more likely to train harder, and become more professional. I didn't race under Brailsford but I know several that have and do, and he seems to be the logical extension of Pete Keen and a progressive mindset.

Some time back I spoke to Wiggins and he stated quite reasonably that it wasn't that British riders 20 years ago weren't any good, it was just that the current generation have the breaks the former generation didn't. Coming from that former generation, I agree... I had as little to do with the National team as possible and made my own 'lucky breaks' in Belgium and abroad. Those that stayed in the UK stagnated and were ultimately lost to the sport.

Just a thought or two... cheers!

Well put. And wasn't that nice of Wiggins. Must be an honest guy really, when not talking to the media.

One negative that has to said though, that with the funding has come an elitist system with all the implications of that. And these are discussed here on the clinic freely. And you were both fortunate that you were able to make your own way and have nothing to do with the system as was back then, I don't think that option would be open to you nowadays.

 

[esafosfina]

Well put. And wasn't that nice of Wiggins. Must be an honest guy really, when not talking to the media.

One negative that has to said though, that with the funding has come an elitist system with all the implications of that. And these are discussed here on the clinic freely. And you were both fortunate that you were able to make your own way and have nothing to do with the system as was back then, I don't think that option would be open to you nowadays.

Very true 'horsin'... I hadn't really thought about that... it seems very much 'My way, or the highway'... and I totally agree with you about the systemic elitism.

 

[DirtyDennis]

Isn't the whole point of the lottery funded GB programme is to be elitist??

Got to agree with you about Bradley W. Had some dealings with him a couple of years ago in a non-cycling related situation. Really down to earth. Hope his success doesn't change that.

 

[andy1234]

Well put. And wasn't that nice of Wiggins. Must be an honest guy really, when not talking to the media.

One negative that has to said though, that with the funding has come an elitist system with all the implications of that. And these are discussed here on the clinic freely. And you were both fortunate that you were able to make your own way and have nothing to do with the system as was back then, I don't think that option would be open to you nowadays.

It is elitist, in that, if you don't stack up physically and produce results, you can't stay in the club. At least the seelction process is based on tangible performance metrics rather than the old boys network, that frequently, it used to be.
However, the truth is, competitive sport is Elitist. Someone should even create a racing category that refers to just that... oh wait...

There was also nothing fortunate, about, going "your own way", believe me.
The drop out rate of even the most talented riders from the highest level, was huge in Britain. It doesn't take many years of having no money to make a rider scale down their ambitions and get a real job.

Its a decision the most talented riders, in the UK, simply don't have to make now....

Hence, a decade or more into the performance programme, GB has the advantage of being able to play the numbers game, rather than just waiting for the occasional star to arise in spite of the system.

 

[Ripper]

It's the toothpaste.

 

[horsinabout]

It is elitist, in that, if you don't stack up physically and produce results, you can't stay in the club. At least the seelction process is based on tangible performance metrics rather than the old boys network, that frequently, it used to be.
However, the truth is, competitive sport is Elitist. Someone should even create a racing category that refers to just that... oh wait...

There was also nothing fortunate, about, going "your own way", believe me.
The drop out rate of even the most talented riders from the highest level, was huge in Britain. It doesn't take many years of having no money to make a rider scale down their ambitions and get a real job.

Its a decision the most talented riders, in the UK, simply don't have to make now....

Hence, a decade or more into the performance programme, GB has the advantage of being able to play the numbers game, rather than just waiting for the occasional star to arise in spite of the system.

When I say elitist what I mean is it is by selection of a limited number, in some cases down to one individual, freezing out other talent.. And yes in sport that selection should mean the best or most talented. Your statement “the selection process is based on tangible performance metrics “ well this might as well have come straight out of Dave Brailsford mantra. They have replaced objective measures with tangible performances. Because objectivity requires a truthful process and facts that are none biased in their interpretations, tangible does not, it is a solid outcome – it doesn't show how you get from A to B.

Selection as is now is based on things like, for example, going in to schools and testing kids on wattage machines. Or selection by this method., rather than some method of showing your worth in a good domestic racing set up.

The sport of cycling in the UK really did need funding better hence the lottery. And for all the reasons you state, a large drop off of talent, but it has gone from one extreme to the other and a depressing over reliance on the power meters in the selection process. And I would question this selection process especially as regards to Chris froome.,

It is clearly a system that works, but it is a system that gives the impression it is created for and around doping, PED's and any other enhancement you care to mention. And it is arguably both the making of and the ruination of the sport.

 

[DirtyDennis]

it is clearly a system that works, but it is a system that gives the impression it is created for and around doping, PED's and any other enhancement you care to mention. And it is arguably both the making of and the ruination of the sport.

It doesn't give me that impression, at all. It gives me the impression of the difference between having a system, and not having one.

I don't know if you had any experience with the BCF prior to its reorganisation, but as the parent of an offspring that got to a pretty high level as a youth, I can tell you it was a hindrance rather than a help, and the whole cycling scene in the UK did a very good job of choking aspirations due to a lack of expertise, and a small-mindedness that was infuriating.

National-level funded doping conspiracy? Who knows.

Small pockets of team-funded doping? Possibly/probably.

Froome? Either a rampant doper or an amazing talent that wasn't in the right place at the right time.

Time will tell, of that I'm sure.

 

[pmcg76]

When I say elitist what I mean is it is by selection of a limited number, in some cases down to one individual, freezing out other talent.. And yes in sport that selection should mean the best or most talented. Your statement “the selection process is based on tangible performance metrics “ well this might as well have come straight out of Dave Brailsford mantra. They have replaced objective measures with tangible performances. Because objectivity requires a truthful process and facts that are none biased in their interpretations, tangible does not, it is a solid outcome – it doesn't show how you get from A to B.

Selection as is now is based on things like, for example, going in to schools and testing kids on wattage machines. Or selection by this method., rather than some method of showing your worth in a good domestic racing set up.

The sport of cycling in the UK really did need funding better hence the lottery. And for all the reasons you state, a large drop off of talent, but it has gone from one extreme to the other and a depressing over reliance on the power meters in the selection process. And I would question this selection process especially as regards to Chris froome.,

It is clearly a system that works, but it is a system that gives the impression it is created for and around doping, PED's and any other enhancement you care to mention. And it is arguably both the making of and the ruination of the sport.

Froome did not come through the British development system and was only really chosen for SKY cos they needed British riders.

I think the British system has been a big plus in the development of the sport there but it also meant if you were not cut out for the track, you would struggle to make it. Dan Martin is the perfect example, he switched his allegiance to Ireland immediately after junior level because BC wanted him to work on the track.

Look at the type of riders that have been developed by British Cycling, mostly strongmen like Stannard, Thomas, Dowsett, Cummings etc. Then there is Cav who is a sprinter but where are the climbers??? Wiggins is one who they 'transformed' but who else, JTL was not a product of BC, he went to France early. Maybe Josh Edmondson and still waiting on Peter Kennaugh. No, SKY have had to look abroad for their mountain goats.

 

[fmk_RoI]

It's the return of Angus Fraser, star of (among others) ANC-Halfords, LA Confidentiel, From Lance to Landis, Seven Deadly Sins and friend of (again, among others) Brian Smith:

At the Gent Six Day in 2016 he was pictured on a massage bed sat next to the rider Chris Lawless, a product of the British Cycling development programme who currently represents the UCI Continental team Axeon-Hagens Berman and was aged only 21 at the time. There is no suggestion Fraser or any British rider was contravening anti-doping laws in any way but British Cycling admitted having someone with his reputation exposed to young riders would be concerning.

Young Mr Lawless, you may have noticed, has recently signed for a British WT team...

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

When I say elitist what I mean is it is by selection of a limited number, in some cases down to one individual, freezing out other talent.. And yes in sport that selection should mean the best or most talented. Your statement “the selection process is based on tangible performance metrics “ well this might as well have come straight out of Dave Brailsford mantra. They have replaced objective measures with tangible performances. Because objectivity requires a truthful process and facts that are none biased in their interpretations, tangible does not, it is a solid outcome – it doesn't show how you get from A to B.

Selection as is now is based on things like, for example, going in to schools and testing kids on wattage machines. Or selection by this method., rather than some method of showing your worth in a good domestic racing set up.

The sport of cycling in the UK really did need funding better hence the lottery. And for all the reasons you state, a large drop off of talent, but it has gone from one extreme to the other and a depressing over reliance on the power meters in the selection process. And I would question this selection process especially as regards to Chris froome.,

It is clearly a system that works, but it is a system that gives the impression it is created for and around doping, PED's and any other enhancement you care to mention. And it is arguably both the making of and the ruination of the sport.

Froome did not come through the British development system and was only really chosen for SKY cos they needed British riders.

I think the British system has been a big plus in the development of the sport there but it also meant if you were not cut out for the track, you would struggle to make it. Dan Martin is the perfect example, he switched his allegiance to Ireland immediately after junior level because BC wanted him to work on the track.

Look at the type of riders that have been developed by British Cycling, mostly strongmen like Stannard, Thomas, Dowsett, Cummings etc. Then there is Cav who is a sprinter but where are the climbers??? Wiggins is one who they 'transformed' but who else, JTL was not a product of BC, he went to France early. Maybe Josh Edmondson and still waiting on Peter Kennaugh. No, SKY have had to look abroad for their mountain goats.

You can make some argument for Simon Yates, but even then, they missed Adam Yates who had to make the move to France.

Hugh Carthy is another talented young climber BC somehow missed...

 

[The Hegelian]

The evidence is in.

The incredible 'peaks' that Team GB and Team Sky have nailed for the Olympics and TDF respectively, are now unequivocally linked to micro-dosing testosterone.

This is the one thing they have been caught with; it is very hard to stare down the inference that if you're prepared to micro dose testosterone, you will prepared to micro dose other doping products.

 

[Parker]

The evidence is in.

The incredible 'peaks' that Team GB and Team Sky have nailed for the Olympics and TDF respectively, are now unequivocally linked to micro-dosing testosterone.

This is the one thing they have been caught with; it is very hard to stare down the inference that if you're prepared to micro dose testosterone, you will prepared to micro dose other doping products.

You have to give them credit though. Getting ten Grand Tour wins and 14 Olympic Gold medals out of a £50 pack of testosterone is amazing business

 

[The Hegelian]

You have to give them credit though. Getting ten Grand Tour wins and 14 Olympic Gold medals out of a £50 pack of testosterone is amazing business

Getting popped for thing does not imply that there is only one thing.

 

[fmk_RoI]

it is very hard to stare down the inference that if you're prepared to micro dose testosterone, you will prepared to micro dose other doping products.

And if you're willing to micro-dose you'll macro-dose. And if you're willing to macro-dose you're willing to worship Satan. QED the secret British Cycling's success has been Satanic worship.

(I've also head it said that if you're willing to dope, you're willing to listen to country and western music, so maybe it's less a case of Beelzebub and more a load of Johnny Cash. They need to be made to release their Spotify lists!)

 

[veganrob]

And of course it was SDB who said if you cheat on Monday you'll cheat on Tuesday. So I'm guessing Sky will cheat everyday as much as is humanly possible

 

[Breezy1985]

And of course it was SDB who said if you cheat on Monday you'll cheat on Tuesday. So I'm guessing Sky will cheat everyday as much as is humanly possible

Ha the same Dave who went from saving the oceans to advertising oil and plastic in 1 year