Why Does Floyd Landis Suck now?

[Anonymous]

why has the word "now" been tagged on the end of the question? is it really needed...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Oy!

Seriously, I think Big Boat is correct, IMO.

Either way, I'm glad he appears to be riding clean, and hope he keeps it that way, results or not. Still has pretty good position on the bike:

 

[Epicycle]

Landis has an 8 man team with three former Pro Tour riders yet they get beat badly by a 3 man team and can't even put anybody in the top 15 on GC. Ouch!

 

[Bala Verde]

Last thing I read about him was that he had mental problems/issues to sort out. I mean, first he was on a high for winning the TdF, but then went through the depths of being flamed for numerous years, expensive law suits, financial losses/bankruptcy, suspension, hip replacement, divorce (?). I guess that's been taking a toll, and probably means he is trying to get his act together and recharge his batteries. I think he is also rediscovering the joy of cycling. I even read that he lived remotely somewhere, where no one bothers him and where he can do his training in solitude. I guess his exposure, celebration and beration has turned him into some sort of a people shy hermit.

 

[Sheltowee]

The Pat Travers Band must've had some like Floyd in mind when they recorded "Born Under A Real Bad Sign."

 

[Bala Verde]

Can't wait for him to get back to his good old form, and win the Giro...

He'd be recouping his money by selling signed 'Pink Floyd' jerseys on Ebay.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Landis has an 8 man team with three former Pro Tour riders yet they get beat badly by a 3 man team and can't even put anybody in the top 15 on GC. Ouch!

I might be beating a dead horse here, but I'm going to speculate they are a completely clean team. (Yes, I think doping is at least a minor issue in continental cycling, though not as broad or extensive as in the Pro Tour in recent times).

I think someone said he dropped out of the TOC this year. He didn't, but was somewhere in the middle of the pack on most stages and at the finish.

Good post Bala Verde about Floyd's situation. Didn't know that much. But Floyd's seeming happiness just to be on the bike at any race might explain that as well. LOL at your second' post.

 

[Kennf1]

Landis has an 8 man team with three former Pro Tour riders yet they get beat badly by a 3 man team and can't even put anybody in the top 15 on GC. Ouch!

Not much shame in getting beat by the Astana trio, BUT, Floyd got beat by some cat. 1s. That just seems weird for a seasoned TdF rider.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Sucks? Really?

Hmmm... I'm not sure that Floyd sucks. In fact I'm quite sure that he can kick the asses of all the collective asses who have postulated here, that he does. What?... We get to hold him up to some ridiculous and speculative standard when we can't even hang with the Cat 4's? And I know you know what I'm talking about.

Here's a guy who came up the hard way in the pro peloton. A racer with palmares the rank him as a top Pro GC rider. A guy who, with a dead hip, pulled off the greatest one day TdF stage performance since the Merckx era, and won the Tour with guts and talent. A man who lost millions of dollars, financial security for his family, and a his sporting reputation and good name, when they took it all away.

Here's a guy who despite all advice to the contrary continued to stand by his convictions and fought an exhausting battle to clear his name, when he could simply have done a Basso and saved a fortune. I don't care whether you think Floyd is guilty or not, and most likely neither does he, but you can't explain away why he would fight so hard to prove his innocence. A fight that, by the way cost him his family, his marriage, his dignity, probably his house, and whatever money he had left.

And now that he has returned to cycling which is probably one of the few things he can still muster some emotion for, he has to be subjected to the speculation of the mindless masses who have the temerity to ask why he "Sucks".

Where he finds the energy or desire to even get back on a bike if a mystery to me. But I do know that he, and every other Pro that makes a living racing his bike, no matter how meager, is a better rider than me, and any other person who has expressed an opinion on this matter in this Forum.

No, I don't think Floyd sucks, but I think he has a well earned right to think that we all do!

 

[BikeCentric]

Hmmm... I'm not sure that Floyd sucks. In fact I'm quite sure that he can kick the asses of all the collective asses who have postulated here, that he does. What?... We get to hold him up to some ridiculous and speculative standard when we can't even hang with the Cat 4's? And I know you know what I'm talking about.

Here's a guy who came up the hard way in the pro peloton. A racer with palmares the rank him as a top Pro GC rider. A guy who, with a dead hip, pulled off the greatest one day TdF stage performance since the Merckx era, and won the Tour with guts and talent. A man who lost millions of dollars, financial security for his family, and a his sporting reputation and good name, when they took it all away.

Here's a guy who despite all advice to the contrary continued to stand by his convictions and fought an exhausting battle to clear his name, when he could simply have done a Basso and saved a fortune. I don't care whether you think Floyd is guilty or not, and most likely neither does he, but you can't explain away why he would fight so hard to prove his innocence. A fight that, by the way cost him his family, his marriage, his dignity, probably his house, and whatever money he had left.

And now that he has returned to cycling which is probably one of the few things he can still muster some emotion for, he has to be subjected to the speculation of the mindless masses who have the temerity to ask why he "Sucks".

Where he finds the energy or desire to even get back on a bike if a mystery to me. But I do know that he, and every other Pro that makes a living racing his bike, no matter how meager, is a better rider than me, and any other person who has expressed an opinion on this matter in this Forum.

No, I don't think Floyd sucks, but I think he has a well earned right to think that we all do!

LOL. This is the most entertaining post I've read so far on this forum. Please keep the laughs coming VeloFidelis! I'm trying to decide if this joker is actually Floyd himself, a member of Floyd's entourage, or just a very talented troll.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Thanks Dude

LOL. This is the most entertaining post I've read so far on this forum. Please keep the laughs coming VeloFidelis! I'm trying to decide if this joker is actually Floyd himself, a member of Floyd's entourage, or just a very talented troll.

I would expect this to resonate particularly well with the smug and under underachieving, or anyone with too high an opinion of their opinion. Glad to see it hit it's mark.

 

[BikeCentric]

I would expect this to resonate particularly well with the smug and under underachieving, or anyone with too high an opinion of their opinion. Glad to see it hit it's mark.

I think your prior post was rather idolatrous of Landis to say the least. Let's face it, Landis holds one of the most dubious distinctions in the history of ALL sports, he's the second guy in history to be stripped of a Tour De France title for doping. He's no Saint, and he's nobodies Angel.

All that being said, this thread is examining Floyd's current dramatic underachievement in the context of his past performances. Personally I hate to see individual riders singled out and scapegoated for doping when they get caught, because I'm quite sure a lot of other riders are doing it and getting away with it - but that's the breaks and one has to take personal responsibility for ones actions. I was unaware of the shambles Floyds personal life is now in, but it seems that's how all the dopers end up in the end. Underachieving.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Thanks for clumping everyone together. Let me guess, you think we're all "Lance haters" too?

I think my posts, and the posts from several others on here, were actually very fair, and reasonable supportive of Floyd's future considering his past.

I don't care whether you think Floyd is guilty or not, and most likely neither does he, but you can't explain away why he would fight so hard to prove his innocence.!

Did you ever think that just maybe his thinking was that by confessing he'd instantly lose his TDF title? And by fighting it, he maintained the off-chance he would be able to hold on to it? Knowing all along he'd be out of the sport for at least a year anyway because of the hip, and probably blacklisted a lot longer even if USADA or CAS overturned his sanction?

I will agree that his Stage 17 ride into Morzine was something to see. And I don't think it was only doping that did it. He got a little rest the day before when he bonked. And he had a great strategy, chasing down Sinkewitz who acted like a carrot when he attacked. Then Periero, Kloden, Rasmussen and the others couldn't get their act together and chase in time, and could be seen bickering with each other (two of those two names later proven to be doped as well). Floyd also made up time on the descents, as he's good on them, and a solo rider can descend faster than a group. And finally it was in hot weather, which is to his liking, and he stayed well hydrated and drenched himself in water.

None the less, when you see something too good to be true...

I'm sure part of Floyd's bitterness came from the thinking that as far as he likely knew, he wasn't doping much more than anyone else, including probably the rest of his team, his previous team, the aforementioned examples from that Tour, and the guy that won the Giro that year, and the guy that won the Tour de Suisse that year, and the guy that would win the Vuelta that year, and the guy that won the Vuelta the previous year, and the guy leading the Tour and about to win the next year, and the guy...

 

[Kennf1]

I would expect this to resonate particularly well with the smug and under underachieving, or anyone with too high an opinion of their opinion. Glad to see it hit it's mark.

Yeah, the test of a pro is whether he can beat the fans.

 

[53x11 in DC]

Thanks for clumping everyone together. Let me guess, you think we're all "Lance haters" too?

I think my posts, and the posts from several others on here, were actually very fair, and reasonable supportive of Floyd's future considering his past.



Did you ever think that just maybe his thinking was that by confessing he'd instantly lose his TDF title? And by fighting it, he maintained the off-chance he would be able to hold on to it? Knowing all along he'd be out of the sport for at least a year anyway because of the hip, and probably blacklisted a lot longer even if USADA or CAS overturned his sanction?

I will agree that his Stage 17 ride into Morzine was something to see. And I don't think it was only doping that did it. He got a little rest the day before when he bonked. And he had a great strategy, chasing down Sinkewitz who acted like a carrot when he attacked. Then Periero, Kloden, Rasmussen and the others couldn't get their act together and chase in time, and could be seen bickering with each other (two of those two names later proven to be doped as well). Floyd also made up time on the descents, as he's good on them, and a solo rider can descend faster than a group. And finally it was in hot weather, which is to his liking, and he stayed well hydrated and drenched himself in water.

None the less, when you see something too good to be true...

I'm sure part of Floyd's bitterness came from the thinking that as far as he likely knew, he wasn't doping much more than anyone else, including probably the rest of his team, his previous team, the aforementioned examples from that Tour, and the guy that won the Giro that year, and the guy that won the Tour de Suisse that year, and the guy that would win the Vuelta that year, and the guy that won the Vuelta the previous year, and the guy leading the Tour and about to win the next year, and the guy...

You know, AdH, this is a respectably reasonable post from you - well played. I categorically disagree that he deserves credit for his legal tenacity, but agree with the previous poster's POV that he'd kick our arses from here to Morzine any day, every day, clean. Still...

But AdH, I do like your reflections on the stage. That was NOT a 100% a result of the 'roids. He did attack and sustain in the way we have wished for since Chiappucci. Certainly propped up by the Pot des Etats-Unis, but he did drill it that day. Every one of us would wish for the 90% of his fuel that day that was natural. It'd make for more than a couple CAT 4-3 or CAT 3-2 upgrades

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Agree 53x11.

Floyd, and especially his legal team and manager's, behavior during his USADA hearings was inexcusable. If it seemed like I was giving him credit for his legal tenacity, that was the opposite of my intention. Only stating that it's my belief he felt he didn't dope more than anyone else, and was fighting to keep his Tour win that he seized with a brilliant ride.

I left out "the guy that won the previous Tour" from my list, among many others of course.

 

[53x11 in DC]

Agree 53x11.

Floyd, and especially his legal team and manager's, behavior during his USADA hearings was inexcusable. If it seemed like I was giving him credit for his legal tenacity, that was the opposite of my intention. Only stating that it's my belief he felt he didn't dope more than anyone else, and was fighting to keep his Tour win that he seized with a brilliant ride.

I left out "the guy that won the previous Tour" from my list, among many others of course.

No - my reference to tenacity was regarding VeloFidelis, not you. Sorry I wasn't clear. Again, great point of view, AdH.

 

[BikeCentric]

Floyd, and especially his legal team and manager's, behavior during his USADA hearings was inexcusable.

You know I even gave Floyd the benefit of the doubt all the way up until the day his minion made the witness-tampering threatening cell phone call to LeMond. From that moment on I wrote Floyd off as a respectable person.

 

[BroDeal]

You know I even gave Floyd the benefit of the doubt all the way up until the day his minion made the witness-tampering threatening cell phone call to LeMond. From that moment on I wrote Floyd off as a respectable person.

While I won't excuse it, it is perfectly understandable. People will do anything when their backs are against the wall. Just look at nasty divorce cases. Seemingly nice people become animals.

It had to be hard for Landis to know that former teammates were just as doped as he was, had had amazing financial success, and were even been defended by the UCI itself; and now he was being made the scapegoat. I think a lot people's reaction would be to fight.

 

[BroDeal]

Hmmm... I'm not sure that Floyd sucks. In fact I'm quite sure that he can kick the asses of all the collective asses who have postulated here, that he does. What?... We get to hold him up to some ridiculous and speculative standard when we can't even hang with the Cat 4's? And I know you know what I'm talking about.

Here's a guy who came up the hard way in the pro peloton. A racer with palmares the rank him as a top Pro GC rider. A guy who, with a dead hip, pulled off the greatest one day TdF stage performance since the Merckx era, and won the Tour with guts and talent. A man who lost millions of dollars, financial security for his family, and a his sporting reputation and good name, when they took it all away.

Here's a guy who despite all advice to the contrary continued to stand by his convictions and fought an exhausting battle to clear his name, when he could simply have done a Basso and saved a fortune. I don't care whether you think Floyd is guilty or not, and most likely neither does he, but you can't explain away why he would fight so hard to prove his innocence. A fight that, by the way cost him his family, his marriage, his dignity, probably his house, and whatever money he had left.

And now that he has returned to cycling which is probably one of the few things he can still muster some emotion for, he has to be subjected to the speculation of the mindless masses who have the temerity to ask why he "Sucks".

Where he finds the energy or desire to even get back on a bike if a mystery to me. But I do know that he, and every other Pro that makes a living racing his bike, no matter how meager, is a better rider than me, and any other person who has expressed an opinion on this matter in this Forum.

No, I don't think Floyd sucks, but I think he has a well earned right to think that we all do!

This is so pathetic is should be posted on Trust But Never Verify, the site that bears a lot of responsibility for encouraging FLandis to destroy himself.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Pathetic? Really?

This is so pathetic is should be posted on Trust But Never Verify, the site that bears a lot of responsibility for encouraging FLandis to destroy himself.

Help me out here BroDeal. In your previous post you pretty much concur with my sentiment completely. But in this one it's all so pathetic. Am I confused, or is it you?

I think part of your confusion is that you seem to think you know where I stand on Floyd's doping positive. You don't, or at least you seem to be making an incorrect assumption, We're also pretty much aligned on the Scapegoat issue as well. So let's review the statements here for accuracy and find the source of your ire.

First of all; does Floyd suck?

OK, that's subjective...

Can he kick all our asses on the bike?

Unless your a paid Pro, and we can find your name recently listed in results elsewhere on the Cycling News website, I'd say that's a safe bet.

Can you still hang with your local Cat 4's?

I'd be surprised. I know that I can't anymore, and I raced as a Cat 2 in my youth.

Does history substantiate Floyd Landis as a great GC rider?

Well let's see; Tour of Georgia, Tour of California, Paris Nice, Tour de France, all in the same year; Yeah that pretty well validates that. Not to mention podiums in the Dauphine' and Tirreno-Adriatico.

Was Stage 17 one of the greatest days of racing since Eddy ruled the peloton?

OK, subjective again, but absolutely one of the most audacious moves in cycling history. Hell he announce his intentions to the world, and a tired group of squabbling GC TdF contenders, on a hot mountain stage, played poker and bet that the man who'd cracked once already would have to fold. Was he doped? I don't know. But you couldn't take enough testosterone (remember the substance he tested positive for), to produce that kind of one day result. It just doesn't work that way.

Did he loose millions?

Duh!

Did he loose his reputation?

uh Yeah!

Was he advised not to fight it?

Hien Verbruggen himself told him to just take the suspension or go broke trying to prove your innocence.

Could he have made it easier on himself like Basso?

Absolutely! and probably still have a wife, a family, a home, and money in the bank.

So the last question remains. What would make a guy who has seen that much pain and misery from cycling, self inflicted or not, deserved or not, ever want to get back into the competitive cycling arena again? I don't know that either. But you know what? It's none of my business.

I can choose to be a fan or not. But speculating on the merit of a guy whose talent and ability on his worst day is light years beyond anyone of us who reads or contributes to this forum, is just the worst kind on mental masturbation and pseudo intellectualism.

If I had to read this BS posted about me (and I well may) by a bunch of boring cycling snobs who have nothing better to do with their time than pontificate authoritatively on subjects that they really know little about; Then I'd probably conclude we all suck too. And you know, I just have to assume that Floyd does.

 

[BroDeal]

Help me out here BroDeal. In your previous post you pretty much concur with my sentiment completely.

No, our positions are quite a bit different. Even though I like Landis, I have no problem admitting that he doped. The evidence is incontrovertible, not only from the positive he was sanctioned for but for the testing of the B samples from stages he was not charged for.

For whatever reason--I am probably hypocritical--I do not have much of a problem with the way he defended himself, but then Hamilton's defense does not really bother me either. I think it was stupid in many ways, but I find the actual act trying to avoid being the scapegoat for a corrupt system understandable. There was a lot to be gained if his defense succeeded.

I personally think he was used by people around him who filled his head with garbage about taking down the system when they should have been giving practical advice about the possible consequences of such a strategy. Attempting to kill the king and failing never ends well for the potential assassin.

I think Flandis will get it together and do much better than he has recently.

 

[JoeVelo]

whisky doping

Floyd Landis was one of the greatest domestiques in US Postal but he made some mistakes. He thought he could beat his former boss on his own terrain. He used to ''prepare'' with Phonak the way he learn it at US Postal but without the same dedication and carefulness so he got caught. It's a shame for him... but now he has to ride clean and this is why he's riding like the domestique he uses to be.

 

[Epicycle]

For whatever reason--I am probably hypocritical--I do not have much of a problem with the way he defended himself, but then Hamilton's defense does not really bother me either. I think it was stupid in many ways, but I find the actual act trying to avoid being the scapegoat for a corrupt system understandable. There was a lot to be gained if his defense succeeded.

I personally think he was used by people around him who filled his head with garbage about taking down the system when they should have been giving practical advice about the possible consequences of such a strategy. Attempting to kill the king and failing never ends well for the potential assassin.

Beyond the Lemond incident there is the issue of all the money he raised. Hundreds of thousands of dollars were donated in the belief he was telling the truth even if it was technically billed as a "fairness" fund. Asking for money because you don't want to be the scapegoat for what everybody is doing is much different than asking for money because you are innocent of the charge. Would there be any blowback if his true doping program were made public?

He did get a lot of bad advice and didn't get the quality of defense he paid for. It's easy to force the issue when you are the one cashing the checks.

 

[BroDeal]

Beyond the Lemond incident there is the issue of all the money he raised. Hundreds of thousands of dollars were donated in the belief he was telling the truth even if it was technically billed as a "fairness" fund.

Where is the evidence that hundreds of thousands of dollars were raised? When Star Trek Enterprise was cancelled, a group tried to raise money to fund a fifth season. They only managed to get a few tens of thousands of dollars. With the Hamilton debacle I cannot imagine that Landis was able to raise much money. I certainly have a hard time believing that there are more well heeled FLandis believers than devout, rabid Star Trek fans.

There are persistent rumors that his defense was funded by Armstrong as a way to attack the LNDD, which had found EPO in Armstrong's urine samples...