Why is Cyclingnews giving LeMond a platform?

[Dr. Maserati]

*Sigh* Mongol_Whatever, not all the drugs on the banned list are PED's. This is a rookie mistake and I forgive you. Cortico-steroids like Cortisone are banned because they can be used to mask an injury. Cortico-Steroids act like adrenal cortex hormones and are important in reducing inflammation in injuries and allergic responses. So, by using Cortico-Steroids, an athlete could mask an injury and do further damage to themselves. Possible side effects include stomach irritation, ulcers, mental irritation and long-term effects and most importantly, weakening of bones and muscles. Many drugs are permitted in certain concentrations. L'equipe took a report of a detection of such a substance, well below the permitted threshold, consistent with the application of a topical cream, and mis-reported it as a positive drug test.

Laughter is still the best medicine and it's not on the banned list. Oh, have you actually seen the list?

There was a permitted threshold?

If there was a permitted threshold in 1999 then why did you require a TUE?

 

[BroDeal]

*Sigh* Mongol_Whatever, not all the drugs on the banned list are PED's. This is a rookie mistake and I forgive you. Cortico-steroids like Cortisone are banned because they can be used to mask an injury. Cortico-Steroids act like adrenal cortex hormones and are important in reducing inflammation in injuries and allergic responses. So, by using Cortico-Steroids, an athlete could mask an injury and do further damage to themselves. Possible side effects include stomach irritation, ulcers, mental irritation and long-term effects and most importantly, weakening of bones and muscles. Many drugs are permitted in certain concentrations. L'equipe took a report of a detection of such a substance, well below the permitted threshold, consistent with the application of a topical cream, and mis-reported it as a positive drug test.

Laughter is still the best medicine and it's not on the banned list. Oh, have you actually seen the list?

The reason why Armstrong Corticosteroid use is important is that Armstrong was asked by the press whether he had a TUE for anything. He denied having any sort of TUE. Later he came up with a post dated TUE after traces of corticosteroids were found in his urine. Funny enough, the product he produced a TUE for did not contain what he tested positive for.

Armstrong's abuse of corticosteroids likely goes way back to the U.S. national team, where the coaches injected the riders while lying to them about what was in the injections. Chris Carmichael destroyed the careers of several underage cyclist with corticosteroid injections.

 

[HokieJoe]

Why does Versus give Armstrong a platform?

I mean, without the dope, it is obvious he is average at best. I think we can clearly see this year that without exclusive rights to Ferrari, he would have finished top 20 maybe between 99 and 05, and that he is a failure in the teammate category. He never rode for anyone else on his team once. Why would anyone give a narcissist junkie like that a forum to speak?

Average at best? I've followed his career since before he won the WC. His physical assets are not average. Your statement stretches credulity IMO. I make no statement as to whether he doped or not. The question is, who F'ing hasn't in the past 30+ years? That's what everyone seemingly forgets.

I'm no Lemond hater. I have nothing but respect for his accomplishments. I started cycling because of Lemond, but under no circumstance do I assume that he was 'the last clean rider'. Hell, look at the odds people. Pre- Lemond, post-Lemond, whatever...Cycling's history is checkered with drug use. That doesn't mean I condone their use, but please, lets all demonstrate a modicum of common sense.

 

[Oldman]

The reason why Armstrong Corticosteroid use is important is that Armstrong was asked by the press whether he had a TUE for anything. He denied having any sort of TUE. Later he came up with a post dated TUE after traces of corticosteroids were found in his urine. Funny enough, the product he produced a TUE for did not contain what he tested positive for.

Armstrong's abuse of corticosteroids likely goes way back to the U.S. national team, where the coaches injected the riders while lying to them about what was in the injections. Chris Carmichael destroyed the careers of several underage cyclist with corticosteroid injections.

And then there were team members that knew exactly what they were being given and through a fit when they wanted a double dose. The rider wasn't underage and wasn't a Carmichael favorite...then.

 

[Runitout]

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/mar04/mar28news

Like a runaway train, ex-Kelme pro Jesus Manzano continues to pour forth his confessions of how he doped himself with illegal drugs in order to keep racing. Although not naming any other riders in his team who may have done similar, Manzano does point a lot of blame at his team doctors, whom he alleges assisted him in many of his doping episodes, as he was unable or unwilling to do it himself. And Manzano also places no small degree of responsibility on his team directors for pressuring him into performing beyond his limits.

In part 4 of his interview with AS, Manzano describes how he was injected with cortisone nearly every day of the 2003 Vuelta in order to 'help' some tendonitis in his knee. "It was cortisone, cortisone, cortisone...For my knee injury. One day yes, one day no, another day yes...They were injecting me almost every day.

"I began getting injections at the beginning of the Vuelta because it was getting annoying. A man who had nothing to do with the team came to give the injections. He was a friend of the director. I didn't think a rider who is [in good shape] should need injections throughout the Vuelta a España, because soon enough I could see the hole that was left in my knee.

"I talked with a rider during the race who was going to see a doctor in Barcelona for a knee problem that he had. But they told me I shouldn't see a doctor, and if I did I'd have to pay with my own money! When I got back to the hotel they continued injecting, injecting...I thought on the stage to Cerro Muriano I was going to die of pain. Still they told me I was lying. I didn't think I'd be able make it over the climbs on the stage at Cordoba."

Manzano now claims that he can't ride a bike any more because of the cortisone, which has a destructive affect on bodily tissue. Now whenever he puts any pressure on the pedals, his knee swells up and he gets a big haematoma.

Manzano also defends himself against accusations that he is making all this up, or that he was doping completely of his own volition. "Some people will say this is just my story," he said. "But how would I know how to inject something in my knee, with all the tendons and ligaments... You have to be a doctor or somebody who knows how to inject, and where. How was I going to go around injecting myself in the back of my leg? You have to be relaxed."

Using other people's blood

One thing Jesus Manzano did draw the line at was getting a blood transfusion with someone else's blood, although he says the choice was offered to him. "Ultimately, I've heard that other people can be utilised for blood transfusions. Look, I've not done that, because in life you must be sincere and not a liar. They offered it to me. I don't have to put the lives of my mother, of my family and of my girlfriend in danger. They offered it to me because a rider when he is racing cannot take products such as EPO. What would happen is to enrich the blood of some person and extract it, before they do the test.

"They offered to do it with my girlfriend, Marina, and with certain others. They asked me if there was some relative with the same blood group as me...It's too much that I'm putting my own life in danger. With all the crap that there is, all the hypocrites covering it up...I'm not going to say if others have utilised it. I don't give names, I'm only accusing myself, no-one else. Neither sportsmen, ex-teammates, teams... That remains clear in this interview, that I don't blame anyone. Is it worth it?

A cycling junkie?

Manzano said that he could 'puncture' himself 12 or 13 times a day, including injecting himself with EPO (sometimes twice a day) and doing his own blood tests. On some days he would measure his hematocrit four times: once in the morning, once after training, once in the late afternoon and once at night. Then he would take doses of growth hormone, folic acid, vitamin B-12 and iron, and finally serum and aspirins to stop his blood thickening too much.

"And there are some days that you have to inject cortisone or HMG, which is a male hormone to balance the testosterone with epitestosterone, or you take some cofactor, like Geref, Neofertin, things like that, that are expensive treatments compared to the ones we have already spoken about."

"You puncture yourself in various places. In the bum...in the veins of the elbows, in the hands...and even in the legs. Look at the elbows, look at the hands. You can see them...My girlfriend, Marina, told me that if she knew that a cyclist had to inject himself so many times, she would have preferred that I never become a cyclist. She said it's shameful.

Manzano said that a "good treatment" has to be started a month and a half before a big race, "because you have to stop if 15 days before competition, although other companions have recently spoken of three days, but you leave 15 because look at what happened in the past [in the Tour].

Insulin: not for Manzano

Manzano finally mentioned insulin, which he says is combined with other drugs. He says he was instructed to use it directly after hard training, referring to a medical plan that he says was given to him by his team's doctors. "I don't know why it's used, because it's something that, to tell the truth, I have never used. I am not diabetic. A diabetic has to give himself insulin, no?...Really, in this case, I don't know what function it has."

While there are no doubt more revelations to come in the Manzano affair, the ex-Kelme rider believes that the riders should not be the only ones sanctioned when they return a positive test. "You know what would put an end to this? When a rider is positive, sanction the doctor and director: two years each. Because a director says that tomorrow there is climbing and it will be war. And the medico, pam, pam, pam, pum, pum, pum, pum. And automatically, war. And if the director is a guerilla, you'll be attacking all day.

"I ultimately thought I was ready to leave. Besides, I already told my partner. We'll start a clothes store, or something like that. And if I have to eat one cutlet instead of two, so be it."

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

*Sigh* Mongol_Whatever, not all the drugs on the banned list are PED's. This is a rookie mistake and I forgive you. Cortico-steroids like Cortisone are banned because they can be used to mask an injury. Cortico-Steroids act like adrenal cortex hormones and are important in reducing inflammation in injuries and allergic responses. So, by using Cortico-Steroids, an athlete could mask an injury and do further damage to themselves. Possible side effects include stomach irritation, ulcers, mental irritation and long-term effects and most importantly, weakening of bones and muscles. Many drugs are permitted in certain concentrations. L'equipe took a report of a detection of such a substance, well below the permitted threshold, consistent with the application of a topical cream, and mis-reported it as a positive drug test.

Laughter is still the best medicine and it's not on the banned list. Oh, have you actually seen the list?

There was (and is) no permitted threshold, and using a steroid (with potentially dangerous side effects) to mask injury, fatigue etc over a stage race IS enhancing natural level of performance. On week 3 of the tour I am tired and my knees hurt, I can't pedal hard without pain and fatigue, I inject them with cortisone, I can no longer feel any pain and knees feel stronger than ever - I ride faster and finish the tour, that otherwise I would have had to abandon.

I believe it was also used pre-emptively, as well as therapeutically.

Phillipe Gaumont explicitly stated that the "trick" was to develop a saddle sore, obtain a TUE and then shoot up as much as you want with impunity.

The interesting fact is that Lance didn't even bother, and instead produced a fraudulently backdated prescription after a panic briefing within USPS HQ.

You might also want to read abour Greg Strock, Chris Carmichael and the endemic cortisone misuse in US junior ranks. Oh, and Lance being known as "Cortisone neck" in his early days.

and yes, I have read the list. I have raced a little in Europe, and been tested a few times in a few different places, even have a couple of TUE's, so it pays to read the documents.

 

[rata de sentina]

I have never really given this much thought before but now that I think of it I am surprised that cortisone is being used as an acceptable treatment for saddle-sore. It seems a bit risky, using a immunosuppressant on an infection. I would never countenance something like that and I've had plenty in my time..

 

[andy1234]

I find the fact that Lemond is being given a platform as the font of all knowledge on doping is laughable.
Neither Lemond or Armstrong can be trusted to provide a balanced argument on doping and as such should not be trusted with the platform to do so.

lets face it, Lemond would do anything to bring Armstrong down and vice versa.

Would Lemond really care if Armstrong didnt eclipse him (particularly in the USA) so dramatically?
Where was Lemonds outrage when Riis, Indurain etc were dominating the tour?

Im sure there will be a collective sigh of relief when Armstrong no longer dominates the cycling press, but please dont replace him with another angry, egotistical rider with a hidden agenda.

 

[MacRoadie]

Why is Cycllingnews giving Lemond a platform?

Because, for starters, he won three Tours de France and three World Championships (one junior and two pro)...

...and you didn't.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I find the fact that Lemond is being given a platform as the font of all knowledge on doping is laughable.
Neither Lemond or Armstrong can be trusted to provide a balanced argument on doping and as such should not be trusted with the platform to do so.

lets face it, Lemond would do anything to bring Armstrong down and vice versa.

Would Lemond really care if Armstrong didnt eclipse him (particularly in the USA) so dramatically?
Where was Lemonds outrage when Riis, Indurain etc were dominating the tour?

Im sure there will be a collective sigh of relief when Armstrong no longer dominates the cycling press, but please dont replace him with another angry, egotistical rider with a hidden agenda.

Nothing hidden about LeMond's agenda, and he has spoken about Riis, Indurain, Contador, Landis etc. Infact pretty consistently about doping for a long time. You just may not have been listening.

 

[straydog]

I have never really given this much thought before but now that I think of it I am surprised that cortisone is being used as an acceptable treatment for saddle-sore. It seems a bit risky, using a immunosuppressant on an infection. I would never countenance something like that and I've had plenty in my time..

Actually cortisone is a chemical component used in many over the counter anti imflammatory medicines....such as preparation H....check the bathroom cabinet

Also it's effect isn't just as an injury masker or preventer....when you exercise excessively or put your body under extreme stress...it naturally produces cortisone...as a sort of buffer for the tissue damage that is done to your muscle fibres....supplementing it, aids that effect and thus aids recovery....it will also over long term use aid muscle growth....lots of side effects though

Oh ...and it can lead to a measureable increase in Haematocrit in the days immediately after use

 

[andy1234]

Why is Cycllingnews giving Lemond a platform?

Because, for starters, he won three Tours de France and three World Championships (one junior and two pro)...

...and you didn't.

Pathetic...

 

[andy1234]

Nothing hidden about LeMond's agenda, and he has spoken about Riis, Indurain, Contador, Landis etc. Infact pretty consistently about doping for a long time. You just may not have been listening.

I may be wrong, but show me some evidence of Lemonds crusades on drug abuse in cycling before 1999. I may well not have been listening.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I may be wrong, but show me some evidence of Lemonds crusades on drug abuse in cycling before 1999. I may well not have been listening.

This interview in the NYT was in 1998 - after the Festina scandal at that years Tour.

"This is probably good for cycling. It's a wake-up call. I think riders will think twice now about team-influenced programs.

"Drugs are the sick side of sports, not just cycling but in many sports."

 

[andy1234]

This interview in the NYT was in 1998 - after the Festina scandal at that years Tour.

Fair play.
It's not exactly a crusade though is it?

 

[straydog]

AIX-LES-BAINS, France— High on the first climb in the Tour de France on Wednesday, Greg LeMond was waiting to watch the race go by and trying to understand why it was more than an hour behind schedule until he was told about the two stoppages by the riders.

"I believe they're protesting that it's gotten to be kind of a witch hunt," said

the American, who won the Tour in 1986, 1989 and 1990. Now 37 years old and retired from the sport, LeMond was accompanying a 16-person tourist group that has been cycling over some of the Tour's roads before and after daily stages.

"The riders are trying to race the Tour de France," he continued in an interview. "You can't interrupt people's lives. The Tour de France is hard enough without interrupting people's lives.

"It's hard to say," he admitted. "I don't know the whole story. I'm an outsider now."

LeMond was critical of the French police, calling their raid on the TVM team's hotel in Albertville on Tuesday "an illegal search and seizure by American definitions."

"The riders feel they're being treated like dogs," he said.

But, he continued as he looked down the mountain and checked his watch, "This is probably good for cycling. It's a wake-up call. I think riders will think twice now about team-influenced programs.

"Drugs are the sick side of sports, not just cycling but in many sports."

Doping problems, he said, were rare in his day. He first raced the Tour in 1984, finishing third, and last participated a decade later, when he had to drop out because of a weakness that was later diagnosed as a rare disease of his body cells.

"In the 1980s, you could race totally clean, as I did," he said. "In the early 90s, you started hearing things. But in the 80s, there was nothing like this, no. You heard about people taking steroids and most of the time they were caught.

"Now everybody believes everybody else is doing it. When some riders are flying, it creates intense pressures on riders and sponsors and teams.

"This is a terrible scandal," he said. "The reality is that to get everything out, they've got to figure ways to detect everything. It's sad for some of the riders but they're the victims of a system that needs to be changed."

"You can say that a rider should resist the pressure to dope himself," LeMond said, "but when it's some guy who faces the loss of his job, or maybe his salary is going to drop from $10,000 a month to $3,000 because he has no results, then it's fair to call him a victim."

I think they left this bit out: Unless he is American and dares to surpass my accomplishments....then he is a lying scumbag....

Boy oh Boy Greg changes his mind when it suits him doesn't he?

I love the in the 80's bit...despite delgado's positive....you know....and the 84 US olympic squad...oh and the entire history of the tour....Jacques Antequill's "it's impossible without" quote


And wow..that witch hunt line....what a true gent Greg is....he would never be part of something like that

 

[andy1234]

AIX-LES-BAINS, France— High on the first climb in the Tour de France on Wednesday, Greg LeMond was waiting to watch the race go by and trying to understand why it was more than an hour behind schedule until he was told about the two stoppages by the riders.

"I believe they're protesting that it's gotten to be kind of a witch hunt," said

the American, who won the Tour in 1986, 1989 and 1990. Now 37 years old and retired from the sport, LeMond was accompanying a 16-person tourist group that has been cycling over some of the Tour's roads before and after daily stages.

"The riders are trying to race the Tour de France," he continued in an interview. "You can't interrupt people's lives. The Tour de France is hard enough without interrupting people's lives.

"It's hard to say," he admitted. "I don't know the whole story. I'm an outsider now."

LeMond was critical of the French police, calling their raid on the TVM team's hotel in Albertville on Tuesday "an illegal search and seizure by American definitions."

"The riders feel they're being treated like dogs," he said.

But, he continued as he looked down the mountain and checked his watch, "This is probably good for cycling. It's a wake-up call. I think riders will think twice now about team-influenced programs.

"Drugs are the sick side of sports, not just cycling but in many sports."

Doping problems, he said, were rare in his day. He first raced the Tour in 1984, finishing third, and last participated a decade later, when he had to drop out because of a weakness that was later diagnosed as a rare disease of his body cells.

"In the 1980s, you could race totally clean, as I did," he said. "In the early 90s, you started hearing things. But in the 80s, there was nothing like this, no. You heard about people taking steroids and most of the time they were caught.

"Now everybody believes everybody else is doing it. When some riders are flying, it creates intense pressures on riders and sponsors and teams.

"This is a terrible scandal," he said. "The reality is that to get everything out, they've got to figure ways to detect everything. It's sad for some of the riders but they're the victims of a system that needs to be changed."

"You can say that a rider should resist the pressure to dope himself," LeMond said, "but when it's some guy who faces the loss of his job, or maybe his salary is going to drop from $10,000 a month to $3,000 because he has no results, then it's fair to call him a victim."

I think they left this bit out: Unless he is American and dares to surpass my accomplishments....then he is a lying scumbag....

Boy oh Boy Greg changes his mind when it suits him doesn't he?

I love the in the 80's bit...despite delgado's positive....you know....and the 84 US olympic squad...oh and the entire history of the tour....Jacques Antequill's "it's impossible without" quote


And wow..that witch hunt line....what a true gent Greg is....he would never be part of something like that

He's hardly commiting himself to the cause at this point, is he?
I'll say it again, If someone can provide evidence of Lemonds outrage at drug abuse in cycling before Armstrong turned up, I'm willing to review my opinion.

 

[callac]

Fair play.
It's not exactly a crusade though is it?

You do realize that timing played a role, don't you?
LeMond didn't follow cycling closely between 1994 and 1998, didn't come back to Europe for long, and 1998 was his first year back on the Tour.
He was naturally the one past champion that the english speaking media went to in 1998 to comment on the Festina affair.
Things should have improved after the Festina affair, and he was an Armstrong supporter in 1999, before knowing of his association with Ferrari.
Interesting read can be this article, from 1999: Greg LeMond: defender of the clean machine.

 

[andy1234]

You do realize that timing played a role, don't you?
LeMond didn't follow cycling closely between 1994 and 1998, didn't come back to Europe for long, and 1998 was his first year back on the Tour.
He was naturally the one past champion that the english speaking media went to in 1998 to comment on the Festina affair.
Things should have improved after the Festina affair, and he was an Armstrong supporter in 1999, before knowing of his association with Ferrari.
Interesting read can be this article, from 1999: Greg LeMond: defender of the clean machine.

Ferrari link or not, Lemond was a supporter of Armstrong until he looked like usurping his standing as greatest American cyclist.
Timing may well have played a part, but I doubt Lemond would have been quite so animated if Armstrong had been Spanish or Italian.

 

[straydog]

Ferrari link or not, Lemond was a supporter of Armstrong until he looked like usurping his standing as greatest American cyclist.
Timing may well have played a part, but I doubt Lemond would have been quite so animated if Armstrong had been Spanish or Italian.

nail....head....hit

no attention....no bike sales either....that one almost bit him on the *** though

 

[pedaling squares]

Why is Cycllingnews giving Lemond a platform?

Because, for starters, he won three Tours de France and three World Championships (one junior and two pro)...

...and you didn't.

Pathetic...

Man, give me some pathetic palmares like that!

To address the OP any cycling media agency would be happy to have someone of Lemond's stature write a blog on their site. They use current pros, and having one a retired champion who has English as his first language is a nice addition.

 

[MacRoadie]

Man, give me some pathetic palmares like that!

To address the OP any cycling media agency would be happy to have someone of Lemond's stature write a blog on their site. They use current pros, and having one a retired champion who has English as his first language is a nice addition.

Exactly. Apparently winning three Tours, three Worlds, and a host of other races at trhe highest levels fails to provide someone with the appropriate credentials to author a blog on professional cycling.

If that's someone's opinion, then THAT is pathetic.

 

[andy1234]

Man, give me some pathetic palmares like that!

To address the OP any cycling media agency would be happy to have someone of Lemond's stature write a blog on their site. They use current pros, and having one a retired champion who has English as his first language is a nice addition.

No, I wasnt referring to Lemonds palmares LOL
That is not in question.

"Pathetic" was in relation to the quoted posters childish comeback.

 

[andy1234]

Exactly. Apparently winning three Tours, three Worlds, and a host of other races at trhe highest levels fails to provide someone with the appropriate credentials to author a blog on professional cycling.

If that's someone's opinion, then THAT is pathetic.

Agreed, that would have been pathetic.
It was actually meant in relation to your brilliant post to me

 

[MacRoadie]

No, I wasnt referring to Lemonds palmares LOL
That is not in question.

"Pathetic" was relation to the quoted posters childish comeback.

And my response was to the OP's ridiculous question about why a website dedicated to the sport of cycling would invite one of the sport's legends to contribute to it's content.

The OP was meant as a back-handed dig at Lemond, his credibility, and his ability to contribute to the cycling dialog.