Why was the secret kind of out in the past but not today?

[Unchained]

The decrease in the number of positives coincided greatly with the replacement of independent testers with the UCI taking back control of testing, creating a conflict of interest that was not there previously.

The other thing it coincides with is lawyers poking holes in the efficacy of securing suspensions on the biopassport and for other supplements or masking agents, such as with cases like Kreuziger and Impey. The biopassport may come back stronger and more effective for it, but it has gone through a period of abject weakness.

Almost all of the highest profile names to get into hot water in the last decade or so have been the result of either police investigations like López or where the UCI kicks an own goal leaking its own bad news story to the press prematurely, like Froome.

This is spot on. No matter where you look in the system there is built in ambiguity, like keytones and other supplements. But with the gulf states knocking on the door to do away with decades of infrastructure, Saudi Arabia could relegate the UCI to overseeing the Olympics. The UCI because of absolute stupidity and the Olympics have exposed professional bike racing to.. some...oversight and the results are disastrous on every level. And the UCI will do more lying, different testing and record keeping in order for their brand and the brand of pro cycling to collapse upon the weight of rampant chemical and biological science and corruption in every direction from riders,doctors, trainers, testers,police, owners,federations, race organizations.. everyone wants cycling to continue and another Armstrong sized nuclear weapon may be the straw that breaks multiple camel's backs, sponsors, races,volunteers, race location like towns,bigger cities, TV and other media may abandon bike racing all together if doping and bike racing are the butt of more sports drug jokes. Chinese, Russian and Eastern bloc athletes, girls w huge biceps and beards had to make room for bike racers in stereotype jokes . UCI wants everything to calm down, start looking at gravel and Zwift and let everyone forget about Puerto, Hamilton, Armstrong, Contador,Vino, Valverde,Landis,....endless. Everyone sees control of messaging and branding as the only path forward. If anyone asks the obvious questions of the UCI it will only be more disingenuous and dishonest.. Are you finding more or less doping? And what do you think the reason is? And one valid answer is we want to discover less doping..
if the Saudi and gulf states step in all lab work will be done in US or France where they own hundreds of labs and have absolute control of the data going in and out. They will guarantee that anonymous testing is absolutely anonymous and secret. They will be able to control whatever level of damage they want, and rest assured that Vino or Alberto, Roman Kruezinger will go under the bus
,Armstrong level, legend level will ride on because it damages bike racing and brands too much for scandal..
Armstrong said in plain language that the UCI and others were all in on keeping his secrets and keeping him and messages from cycling flying high..especially the Hollywood cancer survivor story that was a juggernaut.. Probably had multiple factories churning out yellow plastic wrist bands, couldn't get enough of the story. Oil sheiks maybe can't control all police activity, but some they can and they can control 90% of it..that's the standard UCI is working towards before oil money buys them.
In my opinion, had pro riders not been introduced to the Olympics, pro cycling could have kept lots more in house and everything, I mean everything could have been different, and then law enforcement dealing with careless bike racers could have been the primary problem

 

[pastronef]

This is spot on. No matter where you look in the system there is built in ambiguity, like keytones and other supplements. But with the gulf states knocking on the door to do away with decades of infrastructure, Saudi Arabia could relegate the UCI to overseeing the Olympics. The UCI because of absolute stupidity and the Olympics have exposed professional bike racing to.. some...oversight and the results are disastrous on every level. And the UCI will do more lying, different testing and record keeping in order for their brand and the brand of pro cycling to collapse upon the weight of rampant chemical and biological science and corruption in every direction from riders,doctors, trainers, testers,police, owners,federations, race organizations.. everyone wants cycling to continue and another Armstrong sized nuclear weapon may be the straw that breaks multiple camel's backs, sponsors, races,volunteers, race location like towns,bigger cities, TV and other media may abandon bike racing all together if doping and bike racing are the butt of more sports drug jokes. Chinese, Russian and Eastern bloc athletes, girls w huge biceps and beards had to make room for bike racers in stereotype jokes . UCI wants everything to calm down, start looking at gravel and Zwift and let everyone forget about Puerto, Hamilton, Armstrong, Contador,Vino, Valverde,Landis,....endless. Everyone sees control of messaging and branding as the only path forward. If anyone asks the obvious questions of the UCI it will only be more disingenuous and dishonest.. Are you finding more or less doping? And what do you think the reason is? And one valid answer is we want to discover less doping..
if the Saudi and gulf states step in all lab work will be done in US or France where they own hundreds of labs and have absolute control of the data going in and out. They will guarantee that anonymous testing is absolutely anonymous and secret. They will be able to control whatever level of damage they want, and rest assured that Vino or Alberto, Roman Kruezinger will go under the bus
,Armstrong level, legend level will ride on because it damages bike racing and brands too much for scandal..
Armstrong said in plain language that the UCI and others were all in on keeping his secrets and keeping him and messages from cycling flying high..especially the Hollywood cancer survivor story that was a juggernaut.. Probably had multiple factories churning out yellow plastic wrist bands, couldn't get enough of the story. Oil sheiks maybe can't control all police activity, but some they can and they can control 90% of it..that's the standard UCI is working towards before oil money buys them.
In my opinion, had pro riders not been introduced to the Olympics, pro cycling could have kept lots more in house and everything, I mean everything could have been different, and then law enforcement dealing with careless bike racers could have been the primary problem

you seem very sure about the Saudis/MiddleEast stages stepping in. it's just a project for now and it's far for being even taken seriously by many. pro-cycling has its own ways and old Europe will try to keep it as it is for long.

I agree about ambiguity, like ketones and supplements. but I am more than fine with those. until Wada doesn't put them in the banned list (as with Tramadol) I won't blame anyone who uses them.

Teams know the line they can't step over and behave that way. if a rider/team found a supplement, a method to enhance performance and it's ok for Wada (but fans shout and moan) I am fine with that rider/team (well, unless it's Jumbo. I dislike them. for pure dislike, not because of any doping related smart-assed excuse)

 

[Sciatic]

It can complement today, of course, but it's important to remember that a big part of doping in cycling historically was about recovery, remaining competitive long-enough through the season to earn a worthwhile living and not fall apart physically during 3 weeks racing or 6 days on the track. It had nothing to do with performance enhancement to win races directly. Transfusions, hormones, recup infusions, steroid balancing etc was because riders were basically left to their own devices, teams didn't spend money on sports science and the science itself was flawed or missing nay experts they could employ anyway. Had they understood it, they would have had staff practicing it, yet they didn't, they didn't have to because the riders and teams used doping to replace what lacked in the body to be competitive and so only a doping science and anti-doping evasion effort has historically been the pursuit of pro cycling teams and that seemed to be across the entire peloton, as I'm sure the 40% of proven dopers racing through history didn't represent every doper in a Tour de France peloton so probably more like double that imo around 80% of the peloton.

If were saying nothing much has changed, are you claiming perhaps 40-80% of the peloton is doping because it's not possible to race without it? All evidence of those caught seems to be rather crude doping such epo, blood, steroids, passport fails.

As for police raids this hasn't changed, there probably wasn't much difference between Festina and Arkéa in the legal sense, but the fact Arkea probably didn't need 900 vials of doping products in the hotel room suggests even doping teams have turned it right down, only 3 riders and an external privately hired Dr seem to be linked for example

I just have a very different perspective than you on the doping issue so it’s not worth getting into every detail. But you seem to package your arguments so that you can throw a lot of “facts” or opinions together, which serves for the smokescreen for the things where you’re really off base.
I’ll just mention: “crude doping such as EPO” just doesn’t hold water. What is crude about a PED that is essentially undetectable when microdosing and doesn’t set off bio passport alarms? And something folks don’t mention is how easy it is to use. Unlike say testosterone, which is most effective via intramuscular injection in the butt, or the complexities of withdrawing, freezing, and reinjecting blood, EPO injections are easy and problem free. They are done with a tiny needle poked barely under the skin with a very small amount of liquid (the vile is also tiny). Leaves no mark, almost impossible to mess up, easy to do multiple times per week without site irritation problems.
I know because I’ve been getting weekly EPO (Procrit) injections for 4 months. I get a much larger dose (40,000 IU) than a pro’s micro dose would be, so their injections would be even quicker. Cost about $1,000 per injection for the amt I get (paid by insurance) so probably cost more for illicit purposes?

 

[pastronef]

I just have a very different perspective than you on the doping issue so it’s not worth getting into every detail. But you seem to package your arguments so that you can throw a lot of “facts” or opinions together, which serves for the smokescreen for the things where you’re really off base.
I’ll just mention: “crude doping such as EPO” just doesn’t hold water. What is crude about a PED that is essentially undetectable when microdosing and doesn’t set off bio passport alarms? And something folks don’t mention is how easy it is to use. Unlike say testosterone, which is most effective via intramuscular injection in the butt, or the complexities of withdrawing, freezing, and reinjecting blood, EPO injections are easy and problem free. They are done with a tiny needle poked barely under the skin with a very small amount of liquid (the vile is also tiny). Leaves no mark, almost impossible to mess up, easy to do multiple times per week without site irritation problems.
I know because I’ve been getting weekly EPO (Procrit) injections for 4 months. I get a much larger dose (40,000 IU) than a pro’s micro dose would be, so their injections would be even quicker. Cost about $1,000 per injection for the amt I get (paid by insurance) so probably cost more for illicit purposes?

let's say teams carry the tiny vials of EPO in France in July. since the French law is strict and you could have the gendarmerie searching every bag, every drawer, ever box in the hotel/cars/buses, would teams carry it? would someone from outside come after dinner for 15 minutes at the hotel? and if the gendarmes come in THOSE 15 minutes and you can't leave the place?

 

[Sciatic]

let's say teams carry the tiny vials of EPO in France in July. since the French law is strict and you could have the gendarmerie searching every bag, every drawer, ever box in the hotel/cars/buses, would teams carry it? would someone from outside come after dinner for 15 minutes at the hotel? and if the gendarmes come in THOSE 15 minutes and you can't leave the place?

Good questions—personally I hope they do! But if a rider is microdosing right until they arrive at the Tour, the boost they have gradually built up to their HCT decreases gradually over the course of 3 weeks.

By the way, it’s not 15 min—it takes less than 30 sec

 

[pastronef]

Good questions—personally I hope they do! But if a rider is microdosing right until they arrive at the Tour, the boost they have gradually built up to their HCT decreases gradually over the course of 3 weeks.

By the way, it’s not 15 min—it takes less than 30 sec

yes, but you can have the Gendarmerie come and block the parking lot and all doors ANY SECOND

 

[Sciatic]

let's say teams carry the tiny vials of EPO in France in July. since the French law is strict and you could have the gendarmerie searching every bag, every drawer, ever box in the hotel/cars/buses, would teams carry it? would someone from outside come after dinner for 15 minutes at the hotel? and if the gendarmes come in THOSE 15 minutes and you can't leave the place?

Good questions—personally I hope they do! But if a rider is microdosing right until they arrive at the Tour, the boost they have gradually built up to their HCT decreases gradually over the course of 3 weeks.

yes, but you can have the Gendarmerie come and block the parking lot and all doors ANY SECOND

Sure, that’s possible. My post was to contest Sam’s notion that EPO is crude doping method, which it’s not.

 

[Netserk]

yes, but you can have the Gendarmerie come and block the parking lot and all doors ANY SECOND

Has Visma-LAB ever been searched by the police?

I don't think that would happen out of the blue, and when Bahrain was searched they found nothing of note. It's a known risk teams know how to handle.

 

[pastronef]

Has Visma-LAB ever been searched by the police?

I don't think that would happen out of the blue, and when Bahrain was searched they found nothing of note. It's a known risk teams know how to handle.

probably they know how to handle. but can you imagine if they f-ck up and they get in jail after the gendarmes find epo vials? too risky. it could mean the end of the team. and the media storm that woudl follow. I don't know... I really don't know, Sciatic makes it look like having and epo shot is like eating a candy and it takes 30 seconds. mmm

 

[samhocking]

I just have a very different perspective than you on the doping issue so it’s not worth getting into every detail. But you seem to package your arguments so that you can throw a lot of “facts” or opinions together, which serves for the smokescreen for the things where you’re really off base.
I’ll just mention: “crude doping such as EPO” just doesn’t hold water. What is crude about a PED that is essentially undetectable when microdosing and doesn’t set off bio passport alarms? And something folks don’t mention is how easy it is to use. Unlike say testosterone, which is most effective via intramuscular injection in the butt, or the complexities of withdrawing, freezing, and reinjecting blood, EPO injections are easy and problem free. They are done with a tiny needle poked barely under the skin with a very small amount of liquid (the vile is also tiny). Leaves no mark, almost impossible to mess up, easy to do multiple times per week without site irritation problems.
I know because I’ve been getting weekly EPO (Procrit) injections for 4 months. I get a much larger dose (40,000 IU) than a pro’s micro dose would be, so their injections would be even quicker. Cost about $1,000 per injection for the amt I get (paid by insurance) so probably cost more for illicit purposes?

Cost does not negate crudeness and epo and steroids and 90s technology. Even if we say nothing has changed, that's around 100 riders administering doping substances for three weeks. Pills, vials, medical kits are not invisible and the riders are either in a hotel or riding to and from it especially on mountain days where they do not even use vehicles. Where is this continual microdosing happening, why do we never see anything ever go wrong, life and bad luck doesn't get bypassed just because you're doping. It never did before WADA, yet today almost nothing is happening in anti-doping, almost no riders are racing with any record like in the past 40% were, and even the continual police raids are finding either nothing, very little or gets sensationalised in the media for clicks and evaporate.

 

[Netserk]

Cost does not negate crudeness and epo and steroids and 90s technology. Even if we say nothing has changed, that's around 100 riders administering doping substances for three weeks. Pills, vials, medical kits are not invisible and the riders are either in a hotel or riding to and from it especially on mountain days where they do not even use vehicles. Where is this continual microdosing happening, why do we never see anything ever go wrong, life and bad luck doesn't get bypassed just because you're doping. It never did before WADA, yet today almost nothing is happening in anti-doping, almost no riders are racing with any record like in the past 40% were, and even the continual police raids are finding either nothing, very little or gets sensationalised in the media for clicks and evaporate.

Back in the 00's when we know microdosing EPO was widespread, how often did it go bad then?

 

[Sciatic]

Cost does not negate crudeness and epo and steroids and 90s technology. Even if we say nothing has changed, that's around 100 riders administering doping substances for three weeks. Pills, vials, medical kits are not invisible and the riders are either in a hotel or riding to and from it especially on mountain days where they do not even use vehicles. Where is this continual microdosing happening, why do we never see anything ever go wrong, life and bad luck doesn't get bypassed just because you're doping. It never did before WADA, yet today almost nothing is happening in anti-doping, almost no riders are racing with any record like in the past 40% were, and even the continual police raids are finding either nothing, very little or gets sensationalised in the media for clicks and evaporate.

So, what in your assessment is a non-crude doping regimen?