Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[ebandit]

thanks! mrhender of course it's difficult to compare 2 performances at different times............reinforcing the

need to have riders using similar equipment...............however as my post is here rather than in PRR

i don't think either bike gave real advantage and difference was the preparation!

Mark L

 

[D-Queued]

Re:

Dowsett will probably be banned within 6 months.....

He should have listened when Hein said that we can make anyone positive.

Dave.

 

[The Carrot]

With regards the Bradley Hour Record Hero BS I keep reading about, well;

I give you 2 photos of 2 people, and only one of these individuals is a hero. The other is good at riding a bike (possibly).

 

[The Carrot]

Re:

Dr. Michael Hutchinson is actually a Dr. though so fair's fair. The rest I completely agree with.

I've met Michael Hutchinson a few times, he's clever and a nice guy. He's had an excellent amateur Time Trial Career which culminated in him going to the World Champs (where incidentally I think he tweeted about the Drs there being surprised he had no TUEs (can't find tweet though)). My guess is he competed clean.

He's been a cycling journalist for some time and has progressed on to TV where, for example, he commentated on the Giro in his Native Northern Ireland for the BBC last year, IMO he came across well.

He gets a gig commentating for the hour record, remembering he's had a go at it, that's fair enough. Now I'm not doubting he was OTT, as I didn't listen to him in this instance, but what's he supposed to do? He's a clever man, he gets the agenda which is 'blow smoke up Bradley's arse or else'. If he doesn't then he won't be working for the BBC any more and I guess he has bills to pay, family to support etc. In fact, come to think of it, when I have seen or heard him in the cycling media he has come across as balanced, clever and knowledgeable which has only served to highlight the usual pundits' inadequacies. He may have even been told to rein that in or they'll find somebody from the children's channel to do it.

It's how the media works and it's how the whole system self perpetuates. It will always be thus too while there are gullible fans tuning in to lap this stuff up.

Just some thoughts.

PS. I've just remembered, Hutchinson's TT career actually culminated when he beat a future Tour de France Champion at the Commonwealth Games in 2006, but there again that future champ was wearing Sand Shoes .

 

[Skibby the bush kangaroo]

Re: Re:

PS. I've just remembered, Hutchinson's TT career actually culminated when he beat a future Tour de France Champion at the Commonwealth Games in 2006, but there again that future champ was wearing Sand Shoes .

He beat Froome in Delhi 2010 as well, by which time the marginal gains ought to have set in.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

PS. I've just remembered, Hutchinson's TT career actually culminated when he beat a future Tour de France Champion at the Commonwealth Games in 2006, but there again that future champ was wearing Sand Shoes .

He beat Froome in Delhi 2010 as well, by which time the marginal gains ought to have set in.

Froome's marginal gains did not kick in until 2011 though yeah? You know. After Leinders was hired.

ETA: looking at cqranking.com, Froome had more points at Barloworld than he did his first year with Sky. Don't remember if he had a lot of time off or just doing domestique work, but yeah. Them marginal gains eh?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

ETA: looking at cqranking.com, Froome had more points at Barloworld than he did his first year with Sky. Don't remember if he had a lot of time off or just doing domestique work, but yeah. Them marginal gains eh?

good point.

 

[doperhopper]

So, Wiggo needs to improve peak power... pity the track does not go uphill.

But don't worry miracles are possible under Magic Heiko.

"They know that they’ve got to be on their game, and they’ve really applied themselves well. The paradigm shift of the endurance squad over the last six months under the guidance of [endurance coach] Heiko Salzwedel has been incredible.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-not-guaranteed-olympic-team-pursuit-spot-says-sutton/

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Well to be fair there is nothing technically wrong with the statement about needing better top end power.

Team Pursuit does have a far more sizeable neuromuscular power demand than individual endurance events. They need to do a 61-62 second opening kilo. That's not mucking about. Then the rapid power demand changes at the front are quite sizeable.

 

[doperhopper]

Re:

Well to be fair there is nothing technically wrong with the statement about needing better top end power.

Team Pursuit does have a far more sizeable neuromuscular power demand than individual endurance events. They need to do a 61-62 second opening kilo. That's not mucking about. Then the rapid power demand changes at the front are quite sizeable.

That you "technically" need this and this to achieve that and that is nothing new and it's OK to discuss it - what's surprising is that this talk goes on for Wiggo, who's not a first year rookie... add the marginal six-month-incredible-transformation and it may become clear what is Sutton actually talking about (sometimes it happens there are better responders than old knights).

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Well to be fair there is nothing technically wrong with the statement about needing better top end power.

Team Pursuit does have a far more sizeable neuromuscular power demand than individual endurance events. They need to do a 61-62 second opening kilo. That's not mucking about. Then the rapid power demand changes at the front are quite sizeable.

That you "technically" need this and this to achieve that and that is nothing new and it's OK to discuss it - what's surprising is that this talk goes on for Wiggo, who's not a first year rookie... add the marginal six-month-incredible-transformation and it may become clear what is Sutton actually talking about (sometimes it happens there are better responders than old knights).

Probably just fodder for the cycling media to fill up their click bait quota.

Such "transformative" work (i.e. working on top end for TP for an already elite engine) is readily achieved for such a rider within 2 months of suitable training, so I agree it's kind of a meaningless statement for any quality track rider.

Perhaps it was more about keeping the riders they really want in the team on their toes. Some competitive pressure for places. What could possibly go wrong

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Perhaps it was more about keeping the riders they really want in the team on their toes. Some competitive pressure for places. What could possibly go wrong

Yep, take pretty much the most physiologically-based sport in existence, crank up the pressure to unbearable, and sit back and watch the fireworks.

 

[Sjoerdeman]

Rominger had a ridiculous record. He used to be a childhood hero of mine, but looking back at Bicisport articles on how he overcame his "pollen allergy" thanks to the great Dottore' Ferrari; nothing short of hilarious. On the other hand, Wiggins, how am I supposed to take his attempt serious?

They are both a tad far fetched for me, but to say one is worse than the other?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Rominger had a ridiculous record. He used to be a childhood hero of mine, but looking back at Bicisport articles on how he overcame his "pollen allergy" thanks to the great Dottore' Ferrari; nothing short of hilarious. On the other hand, Wiggins, how am I supposed to take his attempt serious?

They are both a tad far fetched for me, but to say one is worse than the other?

How about Boardman? He beat the pollen man.

 

[Benotti69]

Rominger had a ridiculous record. He used to be a childhood hero of mine, but looking back at Bicisport articles on how he overcame his "pollen allergy" thanks to the great Dottore' Ferrari; nothing short of hilarious. On the other hand, Wiggins, how am I supposed to take his attempt serious?

They are both a tad far fetched for me, but to say one is worse than the other?

How about Boardman? He beat the pollen man.

I don't believe Boardman was clean. He too had his 'low hormone profile'.......

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Rominger had a ridiculous record. He used to be a childhood hero of mine, but looking back at Bicisport articles on how he overcame his "pollen allergy" thanks to the great Dottore' Ferrari; nothing short of hilarious. On the other hand, Wiggins, how am I supposed to take his attempt serious?

They are both a tad far fetched for me, but to say one is worse than the other?

How about Boardman? He beat the pollen man.

While doping can/does impact the energy supply, for the hour it doesn't affect the energy demand side of the equation.

With a CdA of 0.18m^2, Boardman did get very good speed for his power. At those speeds, each 0.01m^2 ~= 23W.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Rominger had a ridiculous record. He used to be a childhood hero of mine, but looking back at Bicisport articles on how he overcame his "pollen allergy" thanks to the great Dottore' Ferrari; nothing short of hilarious. On the other hand, Wiggins, how am I supposed to take his attempt serious?

They are both a tad far fetched for me, but to say one is worse than the other?

How about Boardman? He beat the pollen man.

While doping can/does impact the energy supply, it doesn't affect the energy demand side of the equation.

With a CdA of 0.18m^2, Boardman did get very good speed for his power. At those speeds, each 0.01m^2 ~= 23W.

Ah. The science of CdA. Something Boardman did not have measured, agreed? Something you are guessing at, agreed? Based on an unknown power, agreed?

The irony is stunning.

Why are you not mentioning any error bars?

So very hypocritical.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Rominger had a ridiculous record. He used to be a childhood hero of mine, but looking back at Bicisport articles on how he overcame his "pollen allergy" thanks to the great Dottore' Ferrari; nothing short of hilarious. On the other hand, Wiggins, how am I supposed to take his attempt serious?

They are both a tad far fetched for me, but to say one is worse than the other?

How about Boardman? He beat the pollen man.

While doping can/does impact the energy supply, it doesn't affect the energy demand side of the equation.

With a CdA of 0.18m^2, Boardman did get very good speed for his power. At those speeds, each 0.01m^2 ~= 23W.

Ah. The science of CdA. Something Boardman did not have measured, agreed? Something you are guessing at, agreed? Based on an unknown power, agreed?

The irony is stunning.

Why are you not mentioning any error bars?

So very hypocritical.

WTF?

I'm giving exactly an indication of such variability in power estimates by pointing out the impact on power of differences of coefficient aero drag area, the biggest factor with such estimates at same venue.

Boardman's power was well known at the time since all his lead up training and testing, including his aero development work, was done at the track with an SRM track power meter. So we already know he was in the 0.18m^2 range.

It's also why I talk about W/m^2 values when it comes to hour records, since that range can be much more narrowly defined, while power can potentially vary over a wide range, e.g. as in this example for Jens Voigt:

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

and pointing out that doping doesn't help aerodynamics.

None of which makes any statement about any individual rider's doping status.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So no error bars then?

You denigrate power models and support CdA guesses.

And wonder why people think you are defending dopers.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Rominger had a ridiculous record. He used to be a childhood hero of mine, but looking back at Bicisport articles on how he overcame his "pollen allergy" thanks to the great Dottore' Ferrari; nothing short of hilarious. On the other hand, Wiggins, how am I supposed to take his attempt serious?

They are both a tad far fetched for me, but to say one is worse than the other?

How about Boardman? He beat the pollen man.

While doping can/does impact the energy supply, it doesn't affect the energy demand side of the equation.

With a CdA of 0.18m^2, Boardman did get very good speed for his power. At those speeds, each 0.01m^2 ~= 23W.

Ah. The science of CdA. Something Boardman did not have measured, agreed? Something you are guessing at, agreed? Based on an unknown power, agreed?

The irony is stunning.

Why are you not mentioning any error bars?

So very hypocritical.

WTF?

I'm giving exactly an indication of such variability in power estimates by pointing out the impact on power of differences of coefficient aero drag area, the biggest factor with such estimates at same venue.

Boardman's power was well known at the time since all his lead up training and testing, including his aero development work, was done at the track with an SRM track power meter. So we already know he was in the 0.18m^2 range.

Just in case you were wondering... one number is not a "range".

Your hypocrisy is amazing.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Your comment is unjustified.

I left out the "~" in front of 0.18 and instead pointed out what happens to power estimates with a 0.01m^2 variation in that value.

I think your comprehension needs work.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Your comment is unjustified.

I left out the "~" in front of 0.18 and instead pointed out what happens to power estimates with a 0.01m^2 variation in that value.

I think your comprehension needs work.

Nothing wrong with my comprehension.

You are still not supplying the error bars for the CdA, Alex. A calculated CdA, assuming properly calibrated SRM, based on previous rides on different equipment. Are you 100% sure he trained on the exact same gear he raced on when measuring his power? I mean the cranks were different to start with.

This is the very thing you denigrate the VAM power modeling guys for.

If the power modeling guys wrote ~5.8W/kg you'd let it go? Somehow my tingling spidey senses say what a load of tosh.

 

[blackcat]

plus the yaw angle of riding on the road and the CdA is not possible to measure. Especially in the gusty lowlands where you might be subject to winds switching or the road switching around and reversing back on itself.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re:

plus the yaw angle of riding on the road and the CdA is not possible to measure. Especially in the gusty lowlands where you might be subject to winds switching or the road switching around and reversing back on itself.

We are talking about indoor velodrome / hour record.

I test aerodynamics for a living. We readily attain CdA values with a standard error of 0.001m^2 (which is ~ 0.5%). With experienced riders on the track we can nail it a bit tighter.

As for Boardman, I'll look at posting W/m^2 with error range since it seems to be of so much interest. That'll have to wait until later when I have my modelling handy.

My point was a relative one. Boardman's CdA was lower than for other hour record riders. Superman positioning was significantly more aerodynamic, that's a known fact for track, and one that's pretty obvious when you compare Boardman's previous hour record performed in a more Rominger-like position/bike when compared with his Superman position record.

I made no comment about anyone's doping status, other than to say doping affects the supply side of the hour record equation, not the demand side.

Put another way, speed for the hour record is primarily a function of a rider's W/m^2, and air density.

Doping only affects the W, not the m^2 nor air density. Not sure what's so contentious about this pretty straightforward fact.