Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[oldcrank]

If only they could afford Wiggins' appearance fee was well as Gilbert's: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gilbert-to-open-ghent-six-days-with-individual-pursuit-match

In fact there has been talk of Brad and Iljo teaming up at Gent.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Nice try KC. Earlier you asked if other teams apart from Sky were using power meters, recording and analysing the data. You implied that Sky were doing something special or unique. Well even lowly GreenEdge with no GC contender are doing it! I'd suggest that Evans, Nibali, etc. are doing likewise. Now you shift the goal posts to ask if other teams are "using them constantly and doing the same level of analysis". Talk about intellectual dishonesty...

No I didn't, I asked if every other major team was doing the same thing as Sky. Oh you "suggest" that Evans and Nibali are doing it. Well then PROVE it or stfu. Did Evans and Nibali spend as much time as Sky doing altitude camps this year? Did Evans and Nibali have the same training program this year as Sky? Evans only got started on his TdF prep about 3-4 months after Sky did.

So that is three times now that you, sittingbison or anyone else has ignored the question and staring crapping on about something different. Talk about running away from the issue like a coward because you've got no answer. It's the same as thing as the question I asked months ago, why is it physiologically impossible for a world class pursuit to be able to make a successful transition to road cycling? Still no answer. You just ignore it and start ranting on with some moot strawman argument because you're too gutless to admit you don't have an answer.

 

[the big ring]

Krebs: what are the 3 critical physiological characteristics that Brad as an IP rider shared with road pros.

You mentioned VO2 max, LT and there was a third but I cannot remember what you said. Rather than re-read 100s of posts, can you please refresh my memory?

 

[sittingbison]

...So tell me, like sittingbison's mate with the $50000 lotus bike...

talk about intellectual dishonesty. krebs, YOU are the only person who has EVER mentioned a $50000 Lotus bike.

Goebbels Big Lie:

"...when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous

 

[the big ring]

A curiosity:

Thursday 26 February 2009: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/feb/26/cycling-tour-de-france-mark-cavendish

Sky to sponsor British Tour de France team

Sky TV was yesterday confirmed as name sponsor for a British Tour de France team to be run by Dave Brailsford. The multi*million pound Team Sky will be backed by the satellite broadcaster until the end of 2013 and will aim to produce a British cyclist capable of challenging for the Tour within that time.

The team will have a "British core" as Brailsford put it.The headquarters will be in Manchester where the Olympic squad is based

Other coaches within the Olympic cycling team will be involved, notably Performance Manager Shane Sutton – a survivor of the only British pro team ever to ride the Tour, ANC-Halfords, back in 1987 - and Rod Ellingworth, the founding father of the under-23 academy, which has produced a string of talented young cyclists who will be at the heart of the team.

So in February, 2009, Rod Ellingworth = Team Sky. They have a headquarters in Manchester.

Hey JV, a question if I may?

Where did Brad train for the 2009 Tour, and who trained him?

he trained in Girona and Manchester, mainly. He was coached by Rod Ellingworth (sp?)

In 2009, Brad (Garmin) came 4th in the Tour de France. He was contracted to ride for Garmin in 2010 also, but at the last minute pulls up stumps and heads to Team Sky.

Here's the reaction from Garmin after Wiggins announces he's going to ride for Sky: http://bicycling.com/blogs/boulderreport/2009/12/10/garmin-reacts-to-wiggins-departure/

Vaughters termed the resolution a settlement rather than a buyout, and declined to discuss specific terms. “It was not the outcome I wanted at all,” he said. “We did everything we could to keep him happy and with us, and we stretched the organization as far as we could. But we are not one of the larger-budgeted ProTour teams.”

Vaughters said that Wiggins never mentioned racing for Sky until after the 2009 Tour, where he finished fourth, the highest finish by a British rider since Robert Millar in 1984. And Wiggins signed his two-year contract with Garmin in September of 2008, said Vaughters.

This is what Millar said:

And Garmin rider David Millar (no relation to Robert) noted that, prior to his Tour performance, Wiggins wasn’t anywhere near as sought after by the Sky team as its late, intense courtship might indicate. “You can ask (Sky principals) Dave (Brailsford) or Shane (Sutton), who was on their hit list of British riders six months ago; where was Brad six months ago?” he asked when we spoke by phone.

Wiggins is riding for Garmin. Sky are training Wiggins. Wiggins, coached by Team Sky, in Manchester, comes 4th at the Tour de France.

The soundbites above are post-settlement, where Team Sky have or have agreed to pay pay Garmin a 2M GBP ($3M+ US) transfer fee for Brad, as evidenced in their financials: http://inrng.com/2012/08/team-sky-budget-accounts/

Here's soundbites in June of 2011: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8...about-Bradley-Wiggins-and-Sky-Procycling.aspx

David Millar has criticised fellow Briton Bradley Wiggins as being ungrateful about the Garmin team’s dedication to him in the 2009 Tour de France, saying that the track specialist didn’t properly acknowledge the work that was done for him in the event.

“We [the Garmin team in 2009] made him. We basically rode him into that fourth place finish in the Tour de France,” he said in a controversial article in today’s Guardian. “It was not a one-man show. It was a team effort. He [Wiggins] wouldn't have hit the top 10 if he'd been on any other team so that's why I was so ****ed off with him. He never once gave us the respect we deserved

Here's the opinion of the Velonation author on Brad: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8...about-Bradley-Wiggins-and-Sky-Procycling.aspx

He had never shown Grand Tour potential, but in his year with Garmin he rode solidly for much of the Giro d’Italia, then stunning the cycling world with his fourth place in the Tour de France.

Vaughters again: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8...about-Bradley-Wiggins-and-Sky-Procycling.aspx

Garmin general manager Jonathan Vaughters spoke afterwards about the work he had done with Wiggins to help him believe he could aim high in three week races; the rider instead gave the bulk of the credit to British Cycling.

Hey JV, a question if I may?

Where did Brad train for the 2009 Tour, and who trained him?

he trained in Girona and Manchester, mainly. He was coached by Rod Ellingworth (sp?)

Here's Millar's appraisal of Sky's first year in the pro peloton (2010), where Brad went from 4th overall to 24th: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8...about-Bradley-Wiggins-and-Sky-Procycling.aspx

He is dismissive about the team’s approach in its first season. “They came across as big-headed and disrespectful. They held the rest of us in disdain for our methods and they belittled us,” he said. “We didn't like that. But they had a humbling Tour and made a huge realisation that they had to fit in. They also learnt you can't reinvent the wheel.”

Gee Dave. Really?

 

[sittingbison]

In Search of David Millar:

“They came across as big-headed and disrespectful. They held the rest of us in disdain for our methods and they belittled us. We didn't like that. But they had a humbling Tour and made a huge realisation that they had to fit in. They also learnt you can't reinvent the wheel.”

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

A curiosity...

I'm not sure the points you're trying to make here, tbh, but it was no big secret for those paying attention to the Sky plan when it was first launched that (assuming the club guys I ride with have reliable sources, of course!):

1 - Sky wanted Cavendish as their "marquee" signing initially, to guarantee them some wins in their early years. Wiggo was coached by Ellingworth as part of the GB track set-up - as he had been for years - rather than as part of Sky, which obviously didn't exist in the run-up to the 2009 Tour.

2 - Pete Kennaugh was already identified as the man most likely to deliver Sky's Tour win by 2014

3 - After Wiggo's showing in the 2009 Tour, Sky's plans changed to focus on Wiggo, as a more likely route to Tour success than Kennaugh. This is, of course, consistent with the theory that Wiggo's GT potential was not one that had been deduced within British circles during his track days based on interpretation of Wiggo's training/racing performances.

The cross-over between Sky and the GB team is a very interesting one. Cav was most likely only signed by Sky for 2012 so to allow Brailsford to prepare Cav best for the Olympic Games, though him wearing the "stripes" has not been bad publicity. There was a joke in early 2010 that Sky should sign all the Aussie team pursuit squad and race them into the ground on the road in the early 2012 season, so as to clear the way for the GB TP squad in the OGs. The cross-over is all a bit murky and not necessarily easy to unravel in terms of who is loyal to whom etc.

 

[the big ring]

1 - Wiggo was coached by Ellingworth as part of the GB track set-up - as he had been for years - rather than as part of Sky, which obviously didn't exist in the run-up to the 2009 Tour.

JV says, in black and white, that Rod Ellingworth coached Wiggins for the 2009 Tour, in Manchester.

That is not track set-up, that is a road training program to race the Tour.

Sky existed in 2009 - they went and talked to ASO to find out what they had to do to get an invite the next year.

JV did no training of Wiggins - it was Rod Ellingworth.

 

[Ferminal]

So who was doping him if he was stuck in Manchester? Sounds a bit less suspicious than training close to the influence of White.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

JV says, in black and white, that Rod Ellingworth coached Wiggins for the 2009 Tour, in Manchester.

That is not track set-up, that is a road training program to race the Tour.

Sky existed in 2009 - they went and talked to ASO to find out what they had to do to get an invite the next year.

JV did no training of Wiggins - it was Rod Ellingworth.

I'm still not sure what your point is. Ellingworth was the GB academy coach prior to joining Sky, coaching riders on the road and track, so Wiggo being trained by him, as a long term member of the GB set up is no great surprise.

Can you clarify what your point is? Pulling out a load of quotes and highlighting them as "curious" is not particularly helpful in working anything out!

Why is Wiggo's coach in early 2009 relevant other than to emphasise that Wiggo was only a peripheral part of Garmin?

If it was Sky's master plan to poach Wiggo from Garmin, they wouldn't have got their own coach to coach Wiggo to 4th in the Tour, as this probably quadrupled Wiggo's market salary, thus costing Sky a lot of money. If they'd kept him under wraps, they could have paid Wiggo that same, but got away with paying Garmin peanuts to release him from his contract, thus saving a 7-figure sum.

 

[the big ring]

So who was doping him if he was stuck in Manchester? Sounds a bit less suspicious than training close to the influence of White.

These are the things I do not understand:

1. 2006/7 - training on the road for 2006 & 2007 and coming 4th in the prologue in 2007, in London, training under Rod Ellingworth in Manchester - dope free
2. 2009 - riding for Garmin, training in Girona or Manchester under Rod Ellingworth and achieving 4th in the Tour - "dope free"
3. 2010 - riding for Sky, training in ??? and Manchester under Rod Ellingworth and achieving only 24th in the Tour

What I do understand:

4. Feb 2011 - Brailsford relaxing the anti-doping policy of Sky (http://road.cc/content/news/31011-dave-brailsford-hints-team-sky-may-be-softening-anti-doping-stance)
5. 2011 - Wiggins improving remarkably (3rd in Vuelta)
6. 2012 - Wiggins dominating the season from March to August

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Explaining the change from 2 to 3 is the tricky one, I'd say.

5 doesn't represent an improvement; it merely represents a return to the performance levels of 2. Maybe even to a lower level, as the 2009 Tour line up was pretty stacked.

 

[the big ring]

Why is Wiggo's coach in early 2009 relevant other than to emphasise that Wiggo was only a peripheral part of Garmin?

Wiggins wore a Garmin jersey but rode for Sky. I cannot make that any clearer.

If it was Sky's master plan to poach Wiggo from Garmin, they wouldn't have got their own coach to coach Wiggo to 4th in the Tour, as this probably quadrupled Wiggo's market salary, thus costing Sky a lot of money. If they'd kept him under wraps, they could have paid Wiggo that same, but got away with paying Garmin peanuts to release him from his contract, thus saving a 7-figure sum.

This is the crux of the problem. Why would they do it this way. I have a theory, but it's conspiratorial, no question.

Here's an interview discussing Wiggins' departure. I have never seen someone "upset" look and sound so very blase: http://www.tecca.com/videos/Garmin-Slipstream-Teams-Jonathan-Vaughters-Interview-509763277/

 

[the big ring]

Explaining the change from 2 to 3 is the tricky one, I'd say.

I also find 1-2 tricky, but definitely think 2 to 3 is inexplicable.

5 doesn't represent an improvement; it merely represents a return to the performance levels of 2. Maybe even to a lower level, as the 2009 Tour line up was pretty stacked.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Just look at Wiggo's CQ points for 2009 vs 2012. He did much, much more in 2012 than 2009. I am disturbed that you would say this, to be honest.

 

[Ferminal]

These are the things I do not understand:

1. 2006/7 - training on the road for 2006 & 2007 and coming 4th in the prologue in 2007, in London, training under Rod Ellingworth in Manchester - dope free
2. 2009 - riding for Garmin, training in Girona or Manchester under Rod Ellingworth and achieving 4th in the Tour - "dope free"
3. 2010 - riding for Sky, training in ??? and Manchester under Rod Ellingworth and achieving only 24th in the Tour

What I do understand:

4. Feb 2011 - Brailsford relaxing the anti-doping policy of Sky (http://road.cc/content/news/31011-dave-brailsford-hints-team-sky-may-be-softening-anti-doping-stance)
5. 2011 - Wiggins improving remarkably (3rd in Vuelta)
6. 2012 - Wiggins dominating the season from March to August

I think I understand 2010.

 

[the big ring]

I think I understand 2010.

Go on?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Just look at Wiggo's CQ points for 2009 vs 2012. He did much, much more in 2012 than 2009. I am disturbed that you would say this, to be honest.

5 happened in 2011, not 2012.

I didn't comment on the change on 6, which is definitely a step up from 2 and 5 ie 2012 is definitely a step up performance-wise from 2009 and 2011.

 

[Froome19]

Explaining the change from 2 to 3 is the tricky one, I'd say.

5 doesn't represent an improvement; it merely represents a return to the performance levels of 2. Maybe even to a lower level, as the 2009 Tour line up was pretty stacked.

2 to 3 is obviously due to the fact that Wiggins had mucked up big time his training and allowed everything to slide, you may not swallow the excuse but knowing Wiggins it seems to be a possible reality at least, to me.

And at 5, if you are talking about 2011, then if you consider the fact that he would have been in much better form for the Tour than the Vuelta, as he built up for the Tour not the Vuelta and.

Also in 2009 it would be close to inconceivable to consider him coming 2nd in the ITT at the World champs.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

2 to 3 is obviously due to the fact that Wiggins had mucked up big time his training and allowed everything to slide, you may not swallow the excuse but knowing Wiggins it seems to be a possible reality at least, to me.

Fear not. I'm very pro Wiggo, but remain open-minded. Wiggo wouldn't be the first to reach the heights and then fail to re-attain them the following season after a bout of complacency.

 

[Catwhoorg]

I fully expect his 2013 to be nothing like 2012.
The same drive just will not be there

Few too many beverages here and there, not the same quality hours on the bike.

He will still be good, just nothing like he was this year.

 

[the big ring]

5 happened in 2011, not 2012.

I didn't comment on the change on 6, which is definitely a step up from 2 and 5 ie 2012 is definitely a step up performance-wise from 2009 and 2011.

Man alive. My bad - apologies. It was even my list. Been looking at a lot of web pages these past few days. Yes, you are correct. Close enough. Although had he not crashed out the Tour, I think it may have been different.

But yes, 5 = 2 in terms of performance.

 

[JimmyFingers]

2011 is the year people choose to forget. He won the Criterium de Dauphine, beating Cadel Evans in impressive fashion before crashing out the Tour. I remember after the stage when Cav was told he was out by reporters and the look on his face was incredulity, Cav saying he was in the form of his life and obviously gutted for him. But then Cav's a doper too isn't he, all the Brits are.

He then went on to recover enough to compete but not to win the Vuelta, overshadowed by his teammate and an remarkable performance by Cobo. Presumably Wiggins was on the juice then though, although didn't this place only start shouting about him during the Dauphine this year?

Had he not crashed chances are he might have won or made the podium in the TdF that year. Then all these threads could have started a year earlier.

 

[thehog]

2011 is the year people choose to forget. He won the Criterium de Dauphine, beating Cadel Evans in impressive fashion before crashing out the Tour. I remember after the stage when Cav was told he was out by reporters and the look on his face was incredulity, Cav saying he was in the form of his life and obviously gutted for him. But then Cav's a doper too isn't he, all the Brits are.

He then went on to recover enough to compete but not to win the Vuelta, overshadowed by his teammate and an remarkable performance by Cobo. Presumably Wiggins was on the juice then though, although didn't this place only start shouting about him during the Dauphine this year?

Had he not crashed chances are he might have won or made the podium in the TdF that year. Then all these threads could have started a year earlier.

What does gutted mean? I hear this a lot but do not understand the term.

Gutted??

 

[JimmyFingers]

What does gutted mean? I hear this a lot but do not understand the term.

Gutted??

Google is your friend

 

[thehog]

Google is your friend

1. Take out the intestines and other internal organs of (a fish or other animal) before cooking it.

2. Remove or destroy completely the internal parts of (a building or other structure)