Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[sittingbison]

sigh. you just don't get it.
Wiggo could have said "Tim Kerrison looked at my ITT style, and using a whole lot of scientific mumbo jumbo that krebs knows came up with a training schedule that improved my physiological performance and pedaling efficiency" or something along those lines.

Now, another point that you refuse to get is he could have some understanding about how to pedal a bike. After a decade strapped to a fixie. Winning everything. Like the difference between 120rpm and 90rpm. So if a swimming coach who rowed a bit told him what they were doing and why, especially changing something inherently critical to ALL his success like say pedaling a bike, you would suspect he had a slight inkling of what was going on.

Soooo....what he ACTUALLY said was Kerrison looked at Martin, and said something about rolling resistance and gears, cause at the Tim Kerrison Center For Kids Who Can't Ride Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too, we teach you that there's more to life than just being really, really, really good looking.

There is not any reference to any of the physiological training programs you reference. Its because YOU are the one reading too much into a quip. YOU cannot look away from the spreadsheet for a moment and examine what was said, you are literally putting words into his mouth that were never there in an attempt to rationalise lunacy.

Which leads to the issue of, even if they DID utilise all the scientific method you allude to and re-engineered him from the ground up despite wiggo not having a clue what was happening - they have the technology they CAN rebuild him even if it costs $6m - what did we see? Did we see him with a different style between 2011 ITT and 2012 ITT? Posture? Position? CADENCE? No we did not, it was all remarkably similar. Funnily enough he was pedaling at around 100rpm for all his ITTs, so even though I don't know the difference between track 120rpm and road 100rpm, at least wiggo does.

 

[the big ring]

I was under the impression UCI rules forbid the use of pacing devices in track events?

That's an SRM and it's plugged in.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/track/2007/worldcup0708/beijing07/?id=results/beijing071

 

[biker jk]

Here is a genuine question. Does anyone really know how much analysis of training power meter datafiles goes on at pro team level? Can anyone say for certain that every other top tier team has employed a fulltime staff member who records and analyses every training session?

has anyone here who uses a power meter religiously databased every training and racing km that you did for 12-24 months? The reason I ask is because this process is what enables an optimal training stimulus to be prescribed. Anyone that has ever done maximal strength training knows that if you carefully monitor your training load, you can use that information to make tiny adjustments to future training load and this process leads to better outcomes. Its not just about how many kilometers your ride. It is about carefully monitoring things such as exactly how long you ride at a certain w/kg during interval sessions or the total work in joules expended per day or per week etc etc. IMO, Tim Kerrison is not the new Chris Carmichael, he is just a guy who measures training load carefully. He applies basic methods that strength experts such as Zatsiorsky or verkhoshansky have been using and writing about for more than 30yrs.

Well Simon Gerrans (like most pros) uses a power meter religiously and his data files are examined by his coaches. So Tim Kerrison didn't re-invent the wheel.

See from 5:55 in the video below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmFOkEQsXzo&feature=plcp

 

[the big ring]

Well Simon Gerrans (like most pros) uses a power meter religiously and his data files are examined by his coaches. So Tim Kerrison didn't re-invent the wheel.

See from 5:55 in the video below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmFOkEQsXzo&feature=plcp

Given Brad knew his 2004 IP power and 2006 power before the Dauphine prolgoue of 4.1km where he came 21st, 4% slower than David Zabriskie, I would say Brad has always been aware of his power figures.

 

[blackcat]

the biggest criticism of Wigans would be that he was stupid to not capitalise on his latent classement ability from the middle years of the naughties, when he was taking home p'raps GBP100k. Mcgee was on about equivalent of 500k since the mid naughties. IIs Brad stupid? Or did he place drinking room temperature ales in the local and representing the Union Jack above making green, and still receiving glory. 'Cos everyone knows, cycling is the road for endurance athletes.

Someone compare the records of Ete and Robert Bartko. When Zabel rides Berlin and Dortmund and Bremen compared to Marvulli and Risi and Bartko

I think Bartko won one prologue, in a race like Normandie or Bretegne, basically elite/espoirs pro-am races

 

[Ferminal]

the biggest criticism of Wigans would be that he was stupid to not capitalise on his latent classement ability from the middle years of the naughties, when he was taking home p'raps GBP100k. Mcgee was on about equivalent of 500k since the mid naughties. IIs Brad stupid? Or did he place drinking room temperature ales in the local and representing the Union Jack above making green, and still receiving glory. 'Cos everyone knows, cycling is the road for endurance athletes.

Someone compare the records of Ete and Robert Bartko. When Zabel rides Berlin and Dortmund and Bremen compared to Marvulli and Risi and Bartko

I think Bartko won one prologue, in a race like Normandie or Bretegne, basically elite/espoirs pro-am races

He was more worried about losing his pro contract circa 2007.

Although not completely worried, as he didn't care about road cycling then. If a doper took his spot, it wouldn't have bothered him, as that guy probably trained harder anyway.

 

[blackcat]

So Tim Kerrison didn't re-invent the wheel.

Tim demonstrated that Australian swimming coaches are seers of no peer


Tim just needs to master the Bruyneel hypnotism Jedi mind trick of looking his athletes in the eye to be omniscient of their doping status

 

[blackcat]

sigh. you just don't get it.
Wiggo could have said "Tim Kerrison looked at my ITT style, and using a whole lot of scientific mumbo jumbo that krebs knows came up with a training schedule that improved my physiological performance and pedaling efficiency" or something along those lines.

Now, another point that you refuse to get is he could have some understanding about how to pedal a bike. After a decade strapped to a fixie. Winning everything. Like the difference between 120rpm and 90rpm. So if a swimming coach who rowed a bit told him what they were doing and why, especially changing something inherently critical to ALL his success like say pedaling a bike, you would suspect he had a slight inkling of what was going on.

Soooo....what he ACTUALLY said was Kerrison looked at Martin, and said something about rolling resistance and gears, cause at the Tim Kerrison Center For Kids Who Can't Ride Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too, we teach you that there's more to life than just being really, really, really good looking.

There is not any reference to any of the physiological training programs you reference. Its because YOU are the one reading too much into a quip. YOU cannot look away from the spreadsheet for a moment and examine what was said, you are literally putting words into his mouth that were never there in an attempt to rationalise lunacy.

Which leads to the issue of, even if they DID utilise all the scientific method you allude to and re-engineered him from the ground up despite wiggo not having a clue what was happening - they have the technology they CAN rebuild him even if it costs $6m - what did we see? Did we see him with a different style between 2011 ITT and 2012 ITT? Posture? Position? CADENCE? No we did not, it was all remarkably similar. Funnily enough he was pedaling at around 100rpm for all his ITTs, so even though I don't know the difference between track 120rpm and road 100rpm, at least wiggo does.

false dichotomy to assume Wigans and Brailsfords and Kerrisons marginal gains, can disqualify their doping status. Cant prove the negative.

They are doing both. Like all athletes at the pointy end are. Respect to their physical commitment and efforts.

Like D-Q said, all these marginal gains dont equal a rounding error on the improvement percentage a comprehensive doping program gives.

 

[Alpehue]

WRONG AGAIN!! I was using the L/R thing as an analogy to the stated contention that "working on cadence" could not possibly have any effect whatsoever on motor control patterns. See this is your problem. You have really really bad comprehension. You just make sh!t up out of nowhere. You assume. You lie. You make errors of fact. You distort and twist the statements myself and others make. You make errors in your calculations. You pestered me for a month to give you an "explanation" as to why some individuals could get more energy from aerobic sources than others and continually when I pointed you in the direction of studies and also when I gave you a laymans explanation you replied with childish troll posts over and over saying "oh that's not an explanation herdy her" or "oh I already knew that cause I'm so awesome" or "der professor, I'm SOOOOO smart because I know that hemoglobin BONDS to oxygen". You are the one who continually refers to my PhD, not me. You act like a child but you're a grown adult.

You laugh at this idea of "marginal gains" but you clearly don't even understand what it means. You keep laughing at each individual thing on its own and say "as if a 0.1% improvement can make you go faster" and then throw in the mandatory troll.... "and you call yourself a PhD". But you MISSED THE POINT. If you did 10 things that each improved velocity by 0.1%, well that becomes a 1% improvement in velocity, and that could mean several minutes of difference over 3 wks.

I normally read your posts quite careful, couldent even be borthered reading this one though. Your acting like a child that feel someone threated them unfair. Im sure people would pay more attention to you if you stopped writting like the average youtube troll.

 

[Alpehue]

Are you purposefully ignoring the fact that optimal track cadence is up around 120rpm+ whereas optimal road TT cadence lies between 90-100rpm or do you just not know?

Is this correct? have any articles on this?

First thing i see that could justify him improving a bit. Also, how long time would it take to change your "rythm" from 120 to lets say 90, and be comfortable?

 

[Alpehue]

You've got a real ego complex about the PhD thing haven't you? You are the one who continually refers to it, not me.

And no, I am often rushing to write these possts hence the spelling erros sometimes. But really, can you scrap the bottom of the barrell any lower? down to spelling mistakes in your attempt to "win" the internet and prove to the world that you're smarter than some guy on the internet? sad life you must lead.

PhD's are relatively easy to come by these days, idd trust experience over the degree itself.

I regulary meet "random" people that seriously challenge me within my field (Has nothing to do with cycling) even though their knowledge is based on "self studies" aka reading articles online.

 

[the big ring]

Is this correct? have any articles on this?

First thing i see that could justify him improving a bit. Also, how long time would it take to change your "rythm" from 120 to lets say 90, and be comfortable?

The reason for the high cadence is you have to start a 4.25 minute event from a standing start.

The smaller the gear, the easier it is to get it going. So there is a trade off between big enough gear to have a good cadence (100-130) during the bulk of the event, and small enough that you can get up to speed without wasting too much time or energy.

There's no way Brad was doing 130rpm in any road TTs, though. So the argument (he changed from 120+ rpm to 100+ rpm and therefore is more efficient) is broken.

Brad's first race ever was a 10 mile TT. On the road. He had no end of TTs on the road, and they would have been done at 100rpm.

 

[acoggan]

I don't think acoggan has mentioned his PhD once.

Nor other, potentially more relevant, qualifications.

 

[oldcrank]

Brad's first race ever was a 10 mile TT.

Was his first race not at 3-mile handicap, son?

 

[Alpehue]

The reason for the high cadence is you have to start a 4.25 minute event from a standing start.

The smaller the gear, the easier it is to get it going. So there is a trade off between big enough gear to have a good cadence (100-130) during the bulk of the event, and small enough that you can get up to speed without wasting too much time or energy.

There's no way Brad was doing 130rpm in any road TTs, though. So the argument (he changed from 120+ rpm to 100+ rpm and therefore is more efficient) is broken.

Brad's first race ever was a 10 mile TT. On the road. He had no end of TTs on the road, and they would have been done at 100rpm.

I see, makes sence.

 

[the big ring]

Was his first race not at 3-mile handicap, son?

Dunno mate. If I read it on the Interwebs it must be true, right?

http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/5627/timetrials/sir-bradley-wiggins-wins-olympic-time-trial/

I bet when Bradley Wiggins did his first cycle race (a 10 mile time trial for Wigan Wheelers aged 13), he never imagined he would 19 years later be cycling at 52km/h to Olympic gold.

 

[oldcrank]

Dunno mate. If I read it on the Interwebs it must be true, right?

http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/5627/timetrials/sir-bradley-wiggins-wins-olympic-time-trial/

Wrong year, wrong age, wrong race, wrong club.

 

[the big ring]

Wrong year, wrong age, wrong race, wrong club.

Gotta give me points for at least quoting a source, right? I mean. Not like I'm making a bunch of stuff up and insulting anyone who doesn't believe me. Right?

Right?

 

[blutto]

Wrong year, wrong age, wrong race, wrong club.

...geez, another, in a long line of stone cold winner posts from "the big ring"...we are so blessed with his presence here...

....maybe he should, for the sake of accuracy he should change his handle to "the big band-width waste"....

Cheers

blutto

 

[blutto]

Wrong year, wrong age, wrong race, wrong club.

...geez, another, in a long line of stone cold winner posts from "the big ring"...we are so blessed with his presence here...

....maybe, for the sake of accuracy he should change his handle to "the big band-width waste"....

Cheers

blutto

 

[Froome19]

No one understands but it's not doping? Riiiight.

Sky have delibrately been quite because no one understands. Got it. But it's not doping but no one understands the reasons.

I'm glad you cleared all that up! I feel safe now that there's no doping at Sky. Mainly because no one understands the improvement.

So Wiggins went out and spoke out about what a help Kerrison has been and how he has transformed his career and yet Kerrison has in fact been the primary source of doping for Wiggins...

After all of Sky's attempts to keep things quiet and the fact they have even kept Cav in check this year.. I find it difficult to imagine that they would ever permit Wiggins to make such a statement..

 

[Froome19]

I did. Or at least, I tried to. Have a look: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18595

In 2009, Brad came 4th at the Tour, while a Garmin rider.



NB: Brad wasn't at the pre-tour Girona camp with Millar, Pate and Martin.

ie JV basically didn't see him at all for the entire training program for the Tour.

I am wondering now, how JV can be so confident that Brad was not doped for the Tour, as he claims, given they basically did not interact, at all, for the entire time Brad was on the team beyond the team preso in Boulder, November 2008.

Good point, but I think that nobody can ever doubt that Wiggins has the ability to climb well and up to that level which he demonstrated in 2009 as he would never have been close to capable of reaching the heights he reached at this year's Tour if that was not so..

 

[Krebs cycle]

Well Simon Gerrans (like most pros) uses a power meter religiously and his data files are examined by his coaches. So Tim Kerrison didn't re-invent the wheel.

See from 5:55 in the video below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmFOkEQsXzo&feature=plcp

The AIS cycling program started using SRM cranks about 12yrs ago, so I'm not surprised at all that GreenEdge would be using them. In fact the AIS cycling program lead the way for years in SRM data analysis and then one of those staff members doing all that work ended up getting a job with British Cycling!! So you're right Tim Kerrison didn't re-invent anything, he just learned it from the other Aussies working at British Cycling. So tell me, like sittingbison's mate with the $50000 lotus bike, how exactly does that prove that OTHER teams are using them constantly and doing the same level of analysis? You know, the teams with other GC contenders and not the ones going for the green jersey only.

 

[biker jk]

The AIS cycling program started using SRM cranks about 12yrs ago, so I'm not surprised at all that GreenEdge would be using them. In fact the AIS cycling program lead the way for years in SRM data analysis and then one of those staff members doing all that work ended up getting a job with British Cycling!! So you're right Tim Kerrison didn't re-invent anything, he just learned it from the other Aussies working at British Cycling. So tell me, like sittingbison's mate with the $50000 lotus bike, how exactly does that prove that OTHER teams are using them constantly and doing the same level of analysis? You know, the teams with other GC contenders and not the ones going for the green jersey only.

Nice try KC. Earlier you asked if other teams apart from Sky were using power meters, recording and analysing the data. You implied that Sky were doing something special or unique. Well even lowly GreenEdge with no GC contender are doing it! I'd suggest that Evans, Nibali, etc. are doing likewise. Now you shift the goal posts to ask if other teams are "using them constantly and doing the same level of analysis". Talk about intellectual dishonesty...

 

[the big ring]

If only they could afford Wiggins' appearance fee was well as Gilbert's: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gilbert-to-open-ghent-six-days-with-individual-pursuit-match

Gilbert will go head-to-head in a 3km individual pursuit against compatriot and fellow road professional Gianni Meersman (Lotto Belisol) on the opening night, Tuesday, November 20. Gilbert took part in a similar race in 2011 in which he prevailed against Jurgen Roelandts.