Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[The Hitch]

This may be the worst Tour performance in history by someone who would go on to win the race in future years. I dare say that Cavendish or Quaranta could have outclimbed the 2007 Wiggins.

Fumiyuki Beppu too

 

[acoggan]

So if you made this statement in late 1996 then Riis could be at the top of your power charts and he wouldn't have tested positive but was doping.

1. I've never seen any power data for Riis, so his performance ability has never factored into creation of the tables.

2. You gotta start somewhere.

 

[biker jk]

1. I've never seen any power data for Riis, so his performance ability has never factored into creation of the tables.

2. You gotta start somewhere.

Well then who are the clean riders that figure at the top of your power charts?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Epic cycling performance analysis fail. Nothing more to say here really. If you don't understand why the above is incorrect, then I can't help you. Why don't you follow the link and have a read of what it actually says.

No sir, no fail, just another way of measurement. If it doesn't fit your storybook don't be sour.

And really must I point out the massive hypocrisy here? Above you say that only looking to the mtns is bullocks and then in the SAME post you link to the figure below.....

Seems your reading skills need some improvement, the words 'we are led to believe' don't mean anything to you it seems.

So lets get this straight... according to you, in 2009 Wiggins was climbing as fast as Pantani even though you haven't bothered to check what that VAM might have been. Well since you are so lazy, I did it for you. Using the data from the same place the above figure came from, then if Wiggins started the climb with Contador and he finished 1min 6sec behind, then his VAM was 1769m/hr. Wow! Even slower than the entire peloton went in 2007. But if we use a time of 20’55” then it puts Contador at 1830m/hr and Wiggins at 1738m/hr. Wow! even slower still!

So he was climbing as fast as Indurain, even better.

Should ring a bell to every cycling follower all over the world: Bradley Wiggins climbs as fast as Big Mig. Really, nothing to see here, move along.

But anyway, you claimed that Wiggins was climbing as fast as Pantani (which simply isn't even close to the truth), so lets imagine (something you obviously do a lot when examining cycling performance) that he was. That would mean that from 2009 through to the present, after Team Sky employed their dodgey doctors and got Wiggins' "program" sorted, that he actually went SLOWER this year, about 140m/hr slower actually. So slow that its off the bottom of the chart!! ZOMG EXTRATERRESTRIAL!!!

How are you going to explain that away now?

Wou seem to be so full of yourself you forgot to watch cycling on your TV this year? So, your best argument is Wiggo got 140m/hr slower compared to 2009? How much has he gained from 2007 onwards would be my point actually:
2007 4e in Proloog Tour de France, London (FRA)
2007 86e in 1e etappe Tour de France, Canterbury (FRA)
2007 161e in 2e etappe Tour de France, Gent (FRA)
2007 125e in 3e etappe Tour de France, Compiègne (FRA)
2007 123e in 4e etappe Tour de France, Joigny (FRA)
2007 124e in 5e etappe Tour de France, Autun (FRA)
2007 183e in 6e etappe Tour de France, Bourg-en-Bresse (FRA)
2007 170e in 7e etappe Tour de France, Le Grand Bornard (FRA)
2007 144e in 8e etappe Tour de France, Tignes (FRA)
2007 164e in 9e etappe Tour de France, Briançon (FRA)
2007 141e in 10e etappe Tour de France, Marseille (FRA)
2007 108e in 11e etappe Tour de France, Montpellier (FRA)
2007 117e in 12e etappe Tour de France, Castres (FRA)
2007 5e in 13e etappe Tour de France, Albi (FRA)
2007 147e in 14e etappe Tour de France, Plateau de Beille (FRA)
2007 149e in 15e etappe Tour de France, Loudenvielle-Le Louron (FRA)
2007 135e in 16e etappe Tour de France, Gourette-Col d’Aubisque (FRA)
2007 1e in 4e etappe Tour du Poitou-Charentes et de la Vienne, Jaunay Clan (FRA)

Could you please give me Brad's VAM for that Tour? You know, the last year Wiggo openly spoke out against doping.

Oh its all so confusing I just don't get it. Ahh fudge, I don't think I'll even bother trying to understand. It's just easier if I assume Wiggins is doping. This fact stuff really hurts my brain

Facts? I read on your hero's website the VAM measurements are not trustworthy, so, please don't try to make an a$$ out of yourself trying to make a fool of someone else. Cycling is much more than simple maths.

 

[TubularBills]

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=goldmann&oq=goldmann&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i400.9122.14035.0.15618.8.6.0.2.2.0.813.1116.5j6-1.6.0...0.0...1ac.beJJgTt4PCA#hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&sclient=psy-ab&q=goldman&oq=goldman&gs_l=serp.12..0l4.0.0.1.2438.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c.eHcU4z6YAvY&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=de06fff15ba71e00&biw=1440&bih=711

End game.

 

[the big ring]

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=goldmann&oq=goldmann&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i400.9122.14035.0.15618.8.6.0.2.2.0.813.1116.5j6-1.6.0...0.0...1ac.beJJgTt4PCA#hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&sclient=psy-ab&q=goldman&oq=goldman&gs_l=serp.12..0l4.0.0.1.2438.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c.eHcU4z6YAvY&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=de06fff15ba71e00&biw=1440&bih=711

End game.

Che?

 

[Sigmund]

Not entirely comparable, but a little interesting anyways. It has been said repeatedly that never before has a pursuit rider gone on to become a GC rider.

One earlier example may be Knut Knutsen. He won the IP in Munich in 1972, then went on to be the best TTer in the world (at least as voted by two cycling magazines). He was also in contention for winning the Giro in 1979 but crashed.

Being Norwegian on an Italian team back then he wasnt exactly given protected status for the GC.

Here is his Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knut_Knudsen

 

[sittingbison]

...He was also in contention for winning the Giro in 1979 but crashed. Being Norwegian on an Italian team back then he wasnt exactly given protected status for the GC

hehe anyone remember THESE Italians?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Not entirely comparable, but a little interesting anyways. It has been said repeatedly that never before has a pursuit rider gone on to become a GC rider.

One earlier example may be Knut Knutsen. He won the IP in Munich in 1972, then went on to be the best TTer in the world (at least as voted by two cycling magazines). He was also in contention for winning the Giro in 1979 but crashed.

Being Norwegian on an Italian team back then he wasnt exactly given protected status for the GC.

Here is his Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knut_Knudsen

Not to take anything away from the great TT'er Knudsen was but pointing out a Giro d'Italia won by Beppe Saronni [TT, sprinter] is not a great argument. The Giro was in those days known for their soft course, making it able for Saronni, Moser to win. In I believe 1984 they shortened mountaines stages due to snow, when journalists went to the mountains there was no snow at all...

Nice piece on that Giro here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKkbMuc_W5g

The Italian way...

 

[Benotti69]

Brailsford is really trying hard to push a UKPostal image with more comparisons to 7 time TdF fraud Armstrong!

Talking about Wiggins getting some training time in over the winter.

That’s where the guys who had repeated success on something like the Tour de France, like Armstrong, it’s a phenomenal achievement, in that sense, to manage your life

http://road.cc/content/news/63136-b...l-tour-defence-says-brailsford#comment-115591

I would've thought the last person on the planet right now they would even mention in the same room as Wiggins would be Armstrong, but no, the Sky egos are out of control.

 

[Von Mises]

.

2009 is a different ballgame, climb to Verbiers being quite interesting we might say, the highest VAM ever [!] in the Tour we are led to believe with the reborn climber Brad Wiggins just a minute behind Contador?

Stating that was all to thank to the BP is quite a contradiction in terminus we might say.

As you may know Contador Verbier VAM has been disputed, several experts have calculated rmuch lower figures. Also, Verbier is shorter than other climbs mentioned in your graph. And even if Contador had record breaking VAM in 2009, it does not change the fact that generally climing times have been slower during recent years. In this context Verbier may be a strange outlier.


And btw, I do not believe that Wiggins is 69kg, I think he is heavier. He just does not look so lean compared to some other riders.

 

[Maxiton]

This may be the worst Tour performance in history by someone who would go on to win the race in future years. I dare say that Cavendish or Quaranta could have outclimbed the 2007 Wiggins.

But maybe he was first among clean riders in '07. If so, he really has won the Tour de France. Bradley Wiggans, Campionissiomo!

 

[Sigmund]

Not to take anything away from the great TT'er Knudsen was but pointing out a Giro d'Italia won by Beppe Saronni [TT, sprinter] is not a great argument. The Giro was in those days known for their soft course, making it able for Saronni, Moser to win. In I believe 1984 they shortened mountaines stages due to snow, when journalists went to the mountains there was no snow at all...

Nice piece on that Giro here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKkbMuc_W5g

The Italian way...

We have always been told that Knutsen could have been competitive in the grand tours but was never given a real chance. Since I was a bit young back then, and not very interested in cycling I have always been unsure of whether that was nationalistic hyperbole or honest truths.

I just brought him up because he certainly made the transition from IP to long TTs, and allthough not one of the best, he wasnt a half bad climber.

Indeed. Great piece about that year in Fignons biography. They really did not want Fignon to win and cancelled one of the highest mountain passes, claiming non existent snow.

Great times!

 

[Benotti69]

But maybe he was first among clean riders in '07. If so, he really has won the Tour de France. Bradley Wiggans, Campionissiomo!

But then in 2009 he was juiced.

I wonder is JV thinking about Wiggins whereabouts in 2009 and did he do something right under the noses of Garmin or do Garmin have 'unofficial' off campus 'training' program in Girona.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I just brought him up because he certainly made the transition from IP to long TTs, and allthough not one of the best, he wasnt a half bad climber.

He had more then okay results in short stage races, losing TT's to Merckx and Moser is something not uncommen to say the least...

There is nothing wrong with an IP man converting himself to a road racer with good TT results. When a guy suddenly is able to climb with the best over a 3 week period one could 'become a bit sceptic.

When Andy Schleck suddenly is in the top five of a TT, adding 8 kg of muscle and climb better than before one would think the same.

Girona.

Girona, where did I hear that name before?

 

[hrotha]

To add to the pursuiter to climber thing, there are some like Boardman or Thomas who showed some climbing potential early on. Wiggins didn't.

 

[Ferminal]

But then in 2009 he was juiced.

I wonder is JV thinking about Wiggins whereabouts in 2009 and did he do something right under the noses of Garmin or do Garmin have 'unofficial' off campus 'training' program in Girona.

Ask Matt White?

To add to the pursuiter to climber thing, there are some like Boardman or Thomas who showed some climbing potential early on. Wiggins didn't.

Wiggins didn't care about road cycling back then so didn't train for it at all.

Wait... he cared about it enough to be at his best in time trials, just not any other day. That and his team gave him no freedom to perform.

 

[The Hitch]

We have always been told that Knutsen could have been competitive in the grand tours but was never given a real chance. Since I was a bit young back then, and not very interested in cycling I have always been unsure of whether that was nationalistic hyperbole or honest truths.

I just brought him up because he certainly made the transition from IP to long TTs, and allthough not one of the best, he wasnt a half bad climber.

Indeed. Great piece about that year in Fignons biography. They really did not want Fignon to win and cancelled one of the highest mountain passes, claiming non existent snow.

Great times!

It was a bit different though back when some of the the same guys contest sprints, cobbled classics, hilly classics and grand tours. Today cycling is far more specialized with most riders specializing in 1 of them, and having someone transform overnight from pursuit rider pr top 20 wannabe, to GT contender is very different.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

As you may know Contador Verbier VAM has been disputed, several experts have calculated rmuch lower figures. Also, Verbier is shorter than other climbs mentioned in your graph. And even if Contador had record breaking VAM in 2009, it does not change the fact that generally climing times have been slower during recent years. In this context Verbier may be a strange outlier.


And btw, I do not believe that Wiggins is 69kg, I think he is heavier. He just does not look so lean compared to some other riders.

Thats why I said 'we are led to believe'. A lot of variables not being accounted for.

Even if the climbing is going slower there are no clean references imho in those VAM calculations.

Hell, why are we even talking about VAM? Something 'invented' by one of the worst alchemists in cycling history should be omerted.

 

[simoni]

Beating the BP and getting small (marginal ) gains is possible.

And that is part of the issue. Wiggo and a few other Sky riders have appeared to be at a different level than everyone else pretty much al year. However, with the BP we no longer see the "extraterrestrial" performances. As has been said by numerous people, the BP has definitely narrowed the gap between clean and doping. It has also facilitated a better understanding of how to dope without triggering a positive.

Of course, my doubt comes from the accumulation of quite a few things rather than a focus on 'increased power', etc. And not just of Wiggo. If it were just 1-2 things, I would not be so biased against Sky.

The question isn't "how do they ride so fast" because they don't. Its more "how do they ride faster than the opposition".

My doubt arises not from what they do, but from what they do compared to others.

What have the opposition missed?

We need an explanation. If they're clean then Sky have changed cycling for ever.

 

[Ferminal]

The question isn't "how do they ride so fast" because they don't. Its more "how do they ride faster than the opposition".

My doubt arises not from what they do, but from what they do compared to others.

What have the opposition missed?

We need an explanation. If they're clean then Sky have changed cycling for ever.

That rules out Wiggins/Froome/Porte/Rogers just having a lot more natural ability than the rest (all else being equal) and that Sky just happened to sign a large chunk of the top talent. I still think there are three scenarios:

(a) They are just more talented.

(b) They work harder/have a superior (legal) approach.

(c) They have a better medical program.

In reality it's probably a combination of two or three.

 

[roundabout]

What's the premium on talent? How many people were after Wiggins/Froome (pre-Vuelta), Porte and Rogers?

 

[Ferminal]

Wiggins - JV would have him back for a big net profit.
Froome - Would only have been signed to be a Brent Bookwalter type...
Porte - GEC/Saxo
Rogers - He did sign after a strong year, but as a three weeker?

 

[Benotti69]

That rules out Wiggins/Froome/Porte/Rogers just having a lot more natural ability than the rest (all else being equal) and that Sky just happened to sign a large chunk of the top talent. I still think there are three scenarios:

(a) They are just more talented.

(b) They work harder/have a superior (legal) approach.

(c) They have a better medical program.

In reality it's probably a combination of two or three.

If it is C the other 2 are negated and destroyed by C.

They sure are not more talented.

 

[mastersracer]

That rules out Wiggins/Froome/Porte/Rogers just having a lot more natural ability than the rest (all else being equal) and that Sky just happened to sign a large chunk of the top talent. I still think there are three scenarios:

(a) They are just more talented.

(b) They work harder/have a superior (legal) approach.

(c) They have a better medical program.

In reality it's probably a combination of two or three.

shouldn't this go in the Sky thread?