Wiggins, Clinic respect?

[Don't be late Pedro]

Everyone please remember that it is possible to disagree with someone

I disagree with this.

and still remain polite and civil.

That is all. Thanks.

 

[rata de sentina]

What I don't get is the idea that being inconsistent = being a doper.

Well I don't get that either but I am not sure that anyone else does either. I can't really recall someone seriously using that reasoning. It seems like that argument is a strawman raised by pro-Wiggins posters. People who think Wiggins is a doper seem to do so on the basis of performance and some shifty stuff at Sky. Personally, I don't dislike Wiggins and I dunno if he is doping but I do think he is an effing idjit.

Also that Leinders episode is a very bad look for sky, very bad. You can't blame people for being suspicious.

 

[sniper]

This is from an interview yesterday:



http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/189591.html

that's actually among the more sensible things I've heard wiggins say in recent times. not really consistent with his previous praising of UCI testing, but hey, it's a start.

Lets hope Pat registered the comments.

 

[xcleigh]

Thanks Hog! I don't know why people always give you a hard time.

It's funny, now that I've seen it I remember watching it at the time, I guess there's just too much material to absorb these days.

Rewatching that, I don't know how you could find ANYTHING wiggo says even remotely credible. I know he's just won the tour, but could he really not remember 2009? It stretches credulity past the breaking point.

You have to give some credibility to what Wiggins says otherwise saying he loves Lance isn't credible and so can be discounted as not meaning anything. So we have to give some credibility to some of what Wiggins says but not all. It's just deciding what we do find credible and what we don't. We can't write off everything he says as lacking credibility. Maybe everything said after that quote lacks credibility. I hope that makes sense(?)

 

[workingclasshero]

You have to give some credibility to what Wiggins says otherwise saying he loves Lance isn't credible and so can be discounted as not meaning anything. So we have to give some credibility to some of what Wiggins says but not all. It's just deciding what we do find credible and what we don't. We can't write off everything he says as lacking credibility. Maybe everything said after that quote lacks credibility. I hope that makes sense(?)

it makes sense

except for the point is not that the "love" quote is credible.

The point is his constant contradictions show we are dealing with a liar.

Nothing he says has any credibility.

 

[armchairclimber]

His statements are absolutely worthless. They are no different than his contemptible statements about Ricco. Waiting until Armstrong confesses and the media is calling him the Bernie Madoff on wheels shows how cowardly Wiggins is. He could not even bring himself to make a strong statement after Armstrong was banned.

Even worse, now he is claiming that he knew Armstrong was doping because the change in his performance between stages in the Tour. The funny thing is that the same criteria could be used to show that Wiggins is doping, with the difference being that Wiggins change in performance is way more glaring than Armstrong's.

His statement may not be meaningful to you, but then again, you are (like me) an insignificant internet forum user, posting in a niche sub-forum. Your views, like mine, are read by an audience which seldom reaches 3 figures at any given time.
Wiggins' statement is highly significant to others because he is the current TDF champion and someone who has a global audience and all the attendant media machine that goes with it.
The inconsistency in his attitude to LA over time is not really that exceptional. He was a fan. He probably wants to believe that Indurain was clean too. He certainly ain't a Lance fan anymore.

Maybe some other high profile riders will follow his example and make stronger statements now. Cadel? Schlecks? Contador? Purito? Sagan? Cancellara? Gilbert? Martin? Froome?

 

[coinneach]

I think LS had a perfectly good interpretation of what drives Wiggins's comments, (whatever is bugging him at the time) but the post just got lost in amongst all the nonsense.

A shame to see Parker going into the red zone: doesn't bring out the best in him or any of us.

But, all in all, what a lot of anger!!!

That's when a leader in the procycling world speaks out against doping and criticizes the UCI.

With friends like this on the clinic, who needs enemies?

 

[xcleigh]

it makes sense

except for the point is not that the "love" quote is credible.

The point is his constant contradictions show we are dealing with a liar.

Nothing he says has any credibility.

Ok understand, that seems fair enough. I must admit if you wrote down on the record all my comments on Lance/Doping over the years it might throw up some interesting inconsistencies though However Wiggins being in the public eye should perhaps be more mindful of what he is saying and how it's likely to be perceived. I guess he can't just keep quiet as that would be just as bad. A bit more 'media' training required I do like his use of sweary language though, don't stop that bit Sir Brad

 

[guncha]

What will Wiggins say when get caught?

 

[hrotha]

The inconsistency in his attitude to LA over time is not really that exceptional. He was a fan. He probably wants to believe that Indurain was clean too. He certainly ain't a Lance fan anymore.

Wiggins already knew in 2009 that LA was dirty.

 

[armchairclimber]

Wiggins already knew in 2009 that LA was dirty.

Or was that retrospectively applied knowledge?

Frankly, I assumed that Lance was doping back then but then I presumed (incorrectly) that pretty much everyone was at it to some degree or other. I could still enjoy watching the racing. I think differently now, mostly because I think the sport is cleanER.

 

[rata de sentina]

Maybe some other high profile riders will follow his example and make stronger statements now. Cadel? Schlecks? Contador? Purito? Sagan? Cancellara? Gilbert? Martin? Froome?

Cadel is uncommunicative about nearly everything so this will be the same. Want to know why he was so bad at the 2012 Tour, there's a reason but it takes months for stuff to trickle out. This is a guy who didn't even tell his teammates he had busted his arm. The most we ever got out of him on doping was generalisations and some thinly veiled references to valverde

 

[sniper]

Wiggins already knew in 2009 that LA was dirty.

almost positively.
kimmage interview 2008/9:

"I spent the whole Tour this year with Slipstream, the Garmin team. That wasn’t by accident. I chose that team deliberately, because of what they were saying about the sport and the message they were putting out.

"But also the fact that so many of that team had raced with Armstrong during his best years and knew exactly what he got up to. And the stuff that I learnt on that Tour about him and what he was really like was absolutely shocking, really shocking.

"What’s going to happen now is he comes back and everybody’s going to wave their hands in the air and give him a big clap. And all the guys who really know what he’s about are going to feel so utterly and totally depressed.

"And I’m talking about Jonathan Vaughters, who raced with Armstrong that first winning Tour and who doped. And if you look at that Tour, Armstrong’s first win, there were seven Americans on that team. Frankie Andreu has said he used EPO. Tyler Hamilton has been done for [blood doping]. George Hincapie was exposed as a doper by Emma O’Reilly, the team soigneur.

"Christian Vand Velde and Jonathan Vaughters...both are members of Slipstream and would promote the notion that this was not a clean team by any means. When you look at that and what Armstrong’s done and how he’s seemingly got away with it, it just makes his come back very hard to stomach.

one is hard-pressed to assume Wiggins wasn't informed.

 

[hrotha]

Or was that retrospectively applied knowledge?

Frankly, I assumed that Lance was doping back then but then I presumed (incorrectly) that pretty much everyone was at it to some degree or other. I could still enjoy watching the racing. I think differently now, mostly because I think the sport is cleanER.

At the very least he knew Armstrong had been a heavy doper in cahoots with the UCI, and a bully. He still chose to be supportive of him, casting doubts on Landis's story, which he knew to be true.

 

[armchairclimber]

Quite possibly...he was still a fan. That happens. Like I said, he probably doesn't want to acknowledge Big Mig as a doper either.

I don't mind people changing their mind .... as long as they are changing it in the right direction. I'm glad he has come out and been outspoken now...maybe that's cowardly for him to wait until the fear had gone, but glad he has done it all the same. It's important. I'd like to see more following his lead.

Like I said, he rode and won the TDF clean so he knows that he can invoke his relationship with his son with impunity. Maybe coming out so loudly would be more difficult for other top riders who may have hostages to fortune on their minds.

 

[Gregga]

Wiggins already knew in 2009 that LA was dirty.

I really wonder what happended between those 2 guys in July '09
That was just before Ventoux.

 

[rata de sentina]

Or was that retrospectively applied knowledge?

It was posted earlier in this thread that JV has said this. If true it makes a mockery of Wiggins claiming to be somehow shocked at current "revelations". Also makes a mockery of his professed mancrush on LA if he always knew or strongly suspected he'd been dudded out of a podium at the time. I mean that is a pretty big thing after all.

 

[Ferminal]

Do we genuinely believe anyone who rode at the top level 1999-2005 didn't know what was going on?

 

[armchairclimber]

So JV was dumbfounded by Wiggins' admiration for Lance. Fair enough, JV had been there. Wiggins, at the time, was still star/awestruck. He might have suspected that he'd been diddled out of a podium...having said that, he may have suspected that he was the highest placed clean rider too (a far bigger deal) but just had to take it on the chin until there was proof positive. Nothing particualarly weird given the prevailing culture in cycling at the time.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Yeah, right. A clean rider worshiping a known doper who cheated him out of his 1st TdF podium. Nothing weird about that.

 

[hrotha]

So JV was dumbfounded by Wiggins' admiration for Lance. Fair enough, JV had been there. Wiggins, at the time, was still star/awestruck. He might have suspected that he'd been diddled out of a podium...having said that, he may have suspected that he was the highest placed clean rider too (a far bigger deal) but just had to take it on the chin until there was proof positive. Nothing particualarly weird given the prevailing culture in cycling at the time.

1) Wiggins hadn't been there, but his DS and several of his teammates had, and he knew the story.
2) Taking it on the chin until there was proof would equal shutting up, not praising Armstrong openly. How many times do we need to point this out?

 

[rata de sentina]

Yeah, right. A clean rider worshiping a known doper who cheated him out of his 1st TdF podium. Nothing weird about that.

Well I was thinking that too but maybe not. I did say "mancrush" so him going all vitriolic does fit the "spurned" bill quite nicely. You know what they say about when "love turns to hate".

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I understand people not liking Wiggins because he is inconsistent - or for some that being yet another reason to dislike him. Certainly his inconsistency should be called out.

What I don't get is the idea that being inconsistent = being a doper. Surely if Wiggins had (has?) been doping all these years, his story and his position would be far better planned and rehearsed. As someone said earlier, true consistency is far more suspicious.

Being inconsistent ≠ being a doper.

But being inconsistent does make his statements more difficult to trust, as he has a track record of contradicting or going against previous statements. So when he's stating "I did it clean", it's less trustworthy than somebody who doesn't have a track record of self-contradictions, so it's harder to accept the argument that "Wiggins says he's clean and hates dopers, therefore he's clean and hates dopers".

 

[rata de sentina]

I really wonder what happended between those 2 guys in July '09
That was just before Ventoux.

Well LA did seem to have a weird svengali effect on some people. Just look at how he turned Basso into his toyboy in 2005.

Love the ferrari junior emails.

 

[Gregga]

Well LA did seem to have a weird svengali effect on some people. Just look at how he turned Basso into his toyboy in 2005.

Love the ferrari junior emails.

Yeah, the quotes about Klöden or "the gunslinger" are quite funny too.
Sounds like the Ferrari family had something against Garmin/Wiggins