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Wiggins, Clinic respect?

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Dr. Maserati

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Morbius said:
I understand people not liking Wiggins because he is inconsistent - or for some that being yet another reason to dislike him. Certainly his inconsistency should be called out.

What I don't get is the idea that being inconsistent = being a doper. Surely if Wiggins had (has?) been doping all these years, his story and his position would be far better planned and rehearsed. As someone said earlier, true consistency is far more suspicious.

I will address this even though most of the above is a strawman.

Being inconsistent or consistent has nothing to do with being a doper, LA was perfectly consistent in his denials.
But why would a clean rider make the love comment? Why would a clean rider have anything to do with LA? Particularly as he had been beaten by him for a podium in 09?
 

Joachim

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You failing to answer your own questions does not equal Wiggins not being clean.

In fact it doesn't equal anything other than you failing to answer a question, however crude an inference you attempt.
 
SundayRider said:
Wiggins has said so many contradictory things over the last 3-4 years its very very difficult to keep track of, yet alone work out what is 'true' opinion might be. He is a bizarre character that is for sure.

One could think he is using his fan base to his advantage like Armstrong did.
 
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RownhamHill said:
Second, (indulge me) he's a clean athlete.

Nah. He was maybe. But he didn't win his TdF on panne e Acqau

RownhamHill said:
Third he grew up a fan of Lance Armstrong, and then later - in 2009 particularly - was completely star-struck by him when he got to know him personally (related, I would imagine to a deep seated self-confidence issue, and worry about his own legitimacy and position within the peloton).

Most of the press room watching Armstrong go up Sestriere were laughing at the doper, Armstrong. Most were told by their editors to write a story about Cancer victim comes back and takes yellow. But they all knew. Now if the press knew watching in 1999 what makes you think Wiggins watched all those 7TdFs think the guy was not a doper?

The peloton knew at once. When Wiggins arrived in the European peloton do you not think he would known Armstrong was a doper, if he didn't work it out before then?

Love is blind.
 

Dr. Maserati

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armchairclimber said:
Yep, he should have shut up like every other fecker in the peleton.
Then, he hasn't always behaved like every other fecker in the peleton. He was, it would seem, a fan. It's really not that hard to comprehend.
I have no problem if at one time he was a fan or even naive.
But he knew LAs story once he joined Garmin, he even acknowledges this in his book. And BW could have remained silent, or could have praised LA and doing his "cancer research"tm - but he was gushing over him.

armchairclimber said:
I doubt whether Wiggins gives a rat's **** about convincing the clinic. Nor should he. Anyway, the hills are a calling...carry on.
While that was an attempt to deride The Clinic you have unwittingly highlighted one of Wiggins key failings, his complete contempt for the fans.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
I will address this even though most of the above is a strawman.

Being inconsistent or consistent has nothing to do with being a doper, LA was perfectly consistent in his denials.
But why would a clean rider make the love comment? Why would a clean rider have anything to do with LA? Particularly as he had been beaten by him for a podium in 09?

We are led to believe he thought LA was clean until the Reasoned Decision.

Alternatively, he had the LA story straight all along - doped 1998-2005 and clean 2009 onwards. That would be the best explanation for the disparity in the 2007/2009 comments.
 
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@Spencer the Half Wit. Were you at the Roadwater gig in August 2009? Between song banter included -

Nigel Blackwell: I don't know whether anyone's noticed that on the wall we can see a Penny Farthing.
Heckler: Will it go Nigel?
NB: I wouldn't fancy going up the Ventoux on it put it that way [laughter]
It's not your Campag is it?
Heckler: Could Andy Schleck get up the Ventoux on it do you think?
NB: Andy Schleck would have won that stage quite easily if he wasn't thinking about his brother. I read somewhere that I was wildly wrong with my Andy Schleck prediction and I wasn't. Did 170 riders start that race and I predicted ... well I said "put your money on Andy Schleck". He came second. How wildly wrong was that? Each way bet you know. If you thought on, Contador was always going to win it.[laughter] Operation Puerto. Sorry I'm cycling boring.
Heckler: Was he on drugs though?
NB: Contador possibly. I wouldn't have thought the young Schleck yeah they all are aren't they?
Heckler: (Inaudible)
NB: Well you read the Paul Kimmage book yeah but ...
Heckler: Millar?
NB: I don't think Millar is. Millar definitely isn't. And I don't actually think Wiggins is properly but
Heckler: (Inaudible) Astarloza.
NB: Astarloza yeah, yeah. A lot of them are Spanish and Italian though aren't they?
Heckler: Get on with it.
NB: A lot of the drugs now Spanish and Italian.
Heckler: Repent
NB: No I'm an Andy Schleck man, I'd be very disappointed if he was found to be...
Heckler: Bradley Wiggins
NB: Frank possibly. Bradley's alright but his music ... he thinks he's right into his music because he likes Weller. He doesn't like anything else at all. He's alright you know ... the Jam and all that, fine but he thinks because he likes ... he wouldn't entertain anything else like anything slightly left field.
[Chanting]
NB: It's said that Schleck is into DAF. (chord) Here's a song called 'Everything's AOR' because you wanted me to shut up and get on with the thing right? If you're not into cycling that could have been a really bad two minutes for you.
[Laughter]
 

Dr. Maserati

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Ferminal said:
We are led to believe he thought LA was clean until the Reasoned Decision.

Alternatively, he had the LA story straight all along - doped 1998-2005 and clean 2009 onwards. That would be the best explanation for the disparity in the 2007/2009 comments.
But if he was being consistent then he would say he believed LA when he said on Oprah that he was clean after 05.
If LA admitted he doped after 05 that would be new, but BW actually says he cannot believe LA anymore.
 
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The thing to remember about Wiggins is that he isn't very bright. He's also impetuous which means he says things without considering the ramifications. Bearing this in mind his inconsistent statements about Armstrong are understandable.
 

mastersracer

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Grand Tourist said:
The thing to remember about Wiggins is that he isn't very bright. He's also impetuous which means he says things without considering the ramifications. Bearing this in mind his inconsistent statements about Armstrong are understandable.

and JV, who called him out for making such remarks (partially quoted in this thread) adds that he thinks Wiggins is clean (that part is left out of the 'incriminating' twitter excerpts - selective editing by Wiggins haters).
 
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Grand Tourist said:
The thing to remember about Wiggins is that he isn't very bright. He's also impetuous which means he says things without considering the ramifications. Bearing this in mind his inconsistent statements about Armstrong are understandable.

in that latest bbc sport interview he didn't mention the word 'clean' once.
I wonder if he's consistent in avoiding that word.
do we have record of Wiggins stating he's 'clean'?
 
Dr. Maserati said:
But if he was being consistent then he would say he believed LA when he said on Oprah that he was clean after 05.
If LA admitted he doped after 05 that would be new, but BW actually says he cannot believe LA anymore.

Yeh, I don't actually know why he doesn't believe LA when he said he was clean in 2009. If he was so shockingly dirty on Ventoux why didn't he call him out on it then.

Lance is the new Ricco.
 
Benotti69 said:
Most of the press room watching Armstrong go up Sestriere were laughing at the doper, Armstrong. Most were told by their editors to write a story about Cancer victim comes back and takes yellow. But they all knew. Now if the press knew watching in 1999 what makes you think Wiggins watched all those 7TdFs think the guy was not a doper?

The peloton knew at once. When Wiggins arrived in the European peloton do you not think he would known Armstrong was a doper, if he didn't work it out before then?

Love is blind.

I think that's kind of the point I'm making, isn't it? You might know in your rational mind that the guy used to dope. And you think you know it's still the case now (though, really, other than for a small coterie of Armstrong's inner circle, what does 'know' mean in this context other than believe very strongly?). But then there's the guy himself, being your mate, making you feel good about himself and your position in the world, and there's your younger, 13 year old self reminding you how impressed you were back then, and there's this desire to hope for the best, that this time it's different, and there's the money you make out of the whole circus, and the vested interest in the (what you feel) is the bloke's success at raising 'the profile' (read: your wages) of the sport, then there's the doubt that the thing staring you straight in the face is true when the guy denies it so convincingly, and makes you feel so good about yourself.

And so - in one particular moment, when someone is asking you about him - you give him the benefit of the doubt, and you say 'oh yeah, I love him, he's been great for the sport'.

It doesn't mean that you don't have any scintilla of doubt. It doesn't mean that the only explanation is that you are now obviously doping. It just means you are a real person, with real, sometimes contradictory emotions, and that's how you were feeling at that particular moment in time. And maybe your head has been turned.

Would Wiggins be the first person to the history of the world who's given someone they love/admire the benefit of the doubt? Because I always thought that 'love is blind' cliche is rooted in some sort of recognisable truth.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Grand Tourist said:
The thing to remember about Wiggins is that he isn't very bright. He's also impetuous which means he says things without considering the ramifications. Bearing this in mind his inconsistent statements about Armstrong are understandable.

What does this even mean? That sounds like a made up blanket statement to cover someone.

So what if he isn't very bright - you can still be consistent, but your opinions/facts might appear dumb or ill founded.
And Wiggins is not inconsistent - his statements are complete contradictions even though he had the same info.
 
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lilac harry quinn said:
@Spencer the Half Wit. Were you at the Roadwater gig in August 2009? Between song banter included -

Nigel Blackwell: I don't know whether anyone's noticed that on the wall we can see a Penny Farthing.
Heckler: Will it go Nigel?
NB: I wouldn't fancy going up the Ventoux on it put it that way [laughter]
It's not your Campag is it?
Heckler: Could Andy Schleck get up the Ventoux on it do you think?
NB: Andy Schleck would have won that stage quite easily if he wasn't thinking about his brother. I read somewhere that I was wildly wrong with my Andy Schleck prediction and I wasn't. Did 170 riders start that race and I predicted ... well I said "put your money on Andy Schleck". He came second. How wildly wrong was that? Each way bet you know. If you thought on, Contador was always going to win it.[laughter] Operation Puerto. Sorry I'm cycling boring.
Heckler: Was he on drugs though?
NB: Contador possibly. I wouldn't have thought the young Schleck yeah they all are aren't they?
Heckler: (Inaudible)
NB: Well you read the Paul Kimmage book yeah but ...
Heckler: Millar?
NB: I don't think Millar is. Millar definitely isn't. And I don't actually think Wiggins is properly but
Heckler: (Inaudible) Astarloza.
NB: Astarloza yeah, yeah. A lot of them are Spanish and Italian though aren't they?
Heckler: Get on with it.
NB: A lot of the drugs now Spanish and Italian.
Heckler: Repent
NB: No I'm an Andy Schleck man, I'd be very disappointed if he was found to be...
Heckler: Bradley Wiggins
NB: Frank possibly. Bradley's alright but his music ... he thinks he's right into his music because he likes Weller. He doesn't like anything else at all. He's alright you know ... the Jam and all that, fine but he thinks because he likes ... he wouldn't entertain anything else like anything slightly left field.
[Chanting]
NB: It's said that Schleck is into DAF. (chord) Here's a song called 'Everything's AOR' because you wanted me to shut up and get on with the thing right? If you're not into cycling that could have been a really bad two minutes for you.
[Laughter]

Nah, I've only ever seen them in Newcastle and they don't get up to the North East much. Inter song banter is top quality. I remember him saying that he doesn't play gigs in July as they might clash with an important mountain stage.
 

Joachim

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Ferminal said:
Yeh, I don't actually know why he doesn't believe LA when he said he was clean in 2009. If he was so shockingly dirty on Ventoux why didn't he call him out on it then.

How many examples can you give me of a cyclist, during a race, publicly accusing another rider of doping?
 
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mastersracer said:
and JV, who called him out for making such remarks (partially quoted in this thread) adds that he thinks Wiggins is clean (that part is left out of the 'incriminating' twitter excerpts - selective editing by Wiggins haters).

Big deal, Vaughters says that about everyone in the past 5 years except for the ones who were actually caught.
 
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Joachim said:
How many examples can you give me of a cyclist, during a race, publicly accusing another rider of doping?

not many, but that's simply because there weren't that many clean riders before wiggins et al. came along.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Björn Ferry's pretty consistent, or at least has been for the last few years, can't find much in the way of quotes from him before then (maybe a Swedish-speaking poster could help out). But so far we've had him calling the Russians who tested positive in 2009 "a bunch of idiots", that dopers have "low moral standards", at the Olympics he stated that he wouldn't mind if dopers got the death penalty "or at least lots of kicks in the balls", and after placing fourth in a World Championship race behind a shock performance from unheralded Ukrainian Andriy Deryzemlya, stated "I haven't given up hope yet. He has to take a leak first, and then we'll see. I know him, he usually comes 40th, not 3rd".

Like a lot of Sky, you can spin everything as feasible if you ignore vast chunks of history. If you draw a line in the sand after the Beijing Olympics and reopen it again recently, Wiggins has been consistent and saying good things in his doping discussions. However, it's hard for us to un-hear the period of Armstrong praising. Similarly, if you draw a line in the sand after the 2008 Tour de France and reopen it again at the 2011 Vuelta, Chris Froome made linear, if slightly surprising, progress. But I can't un-see that period from 2009 to July 2011 where the only things he did of any note were trying to ride a bike sideways on San Luca, and getting kicked out of the 2010 Giro for drafting.


Wow. The "whole world outside the clinic" is right. This place clearly is an asylum. What an unreasonable.*** comment. cn should bring in an online shrink (someone with internet mind reading skills like joachim) to help out because these ideas belong in a.mental.health clinic.
 
The Hitch said:
Wow. The "whole world outside the clinic" is right. This place clearly is an asylum. What an unreasonable.*** comment. cn should bring in an online shrink (someone with internet mind reading skills like joachim) to help out because these ideas belong in a.mental.health clinic.

To me, it made very good sense.

Perhaps it's you who does not want to "see"?
 

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