Wiggins, Clinic respect?

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

You wouldn't need a TUE anyway directly after a tour. Cortisone is not banned OOC. I suppose that the package being delivered on the last day of the Dauphine doesn't necessarily mean it was administered on that day, could well have waited 12 hours or so and taken it perfectly legally. So why the big cover up? Because the widespread use of Cortisone is not something Sky wanted to be associated with considering the high moral ground they had taken...

It was allegedly administered that day, in the back of the bus as it prepared to leave the race. Do read the original story.

Yes, allegedly. Thankyou for confirming that we don't know when it was administered. Do consider all aspects of the story before attempting to belittle and patronise people for their opinions and theories on said story.

Brailsford's attempts to deflect Matt Lawton don't make any sense unless something seriously dodgy went on that day

He started with the "Cope travelled to see Emma Pooley, the bus wasn't there after the race". Lies plain and simple, easily disproved

Moved on to "I can dish the dirt on another team if you pull this story, if you publish it will bring the team down". Pure desparation

Why would Brailsford say those things if he had nothing to hide...?

When have i said he had nothing to hide? Read back through my posts on the subject, no doubt in my mind that SDB has been feeding us a pack of lies. The only question that remains (for me at least) is wether he's lying to cover up something illegal or just something immoral.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Do consider all aspects of the story before attempting to belittle and patronise people for their opinions and theories on said story.

Why is it sum people think it is belittle and patronising when their errors get pointed out?

 

[samhocking]

Re:

He saying if it's Fluimucil in the bag it would also contain needles and B vitamins

Freeman and Brailsford say its Fluimucil that's for a nebulizer and there's nothing else in the package, because a Doctor in possession of needles at a race faces a 5 year prison sentence

That would explain why Wiggo says he never sees the bag, riders is also subject to the needles charge

My understanding is Fluimicil in suspension form is what is used as deconjestant when nebulized and the same suspension can be injected an anti-oxident too. Clearly the team were heading directly to the training camp that evening. Just my hunch, but I think Phil Bert packaged everything Freeman was low on and would be against no-needles policy while at Dauphine. He wouldn't have had B12 as that would be evidnce of needles and he wouldn't have had Fluimicil in suspension as that could also be seen as breaking no-needles policy. Needles would also be required for any legal IV recovery at the training camp after midnight which is when the UCI period of competition and the no-needles rule ends.
I honestly think the whistleblower to Lawton got his story wrong. 6 years ago, he remembers a package, he remembers needles and he remembers Wiggins going on the bus. The Fancy Bears TUE was published, he put two and two together and assumed the package was Triamcinlone. He could be correct, but there's a lot more sense to the committee whistleblower than Lawton's. At least in terms of a believable story. If we've learnt anything, it's Sky appear to walk right up to the line of what is legal. Delivery of needles a few hours before midnight once the Dauphine finished crossed that line and this is why much of what came from Brailsford originally didn't make sense, because he knows they broke the no-needles policy introduced just a coulple of months earlier at Giro, even if nothing was ever injected until next day at the training camp and would have been within the rules.

 

[Digger]

Re: Re:

He saying if it's Fluimucil in the bag it would also contain needles and B vitamins

Freeman and Brailsford say its Fluimucil that's for a nebulizer and there's nothing else in the package, because a Doctor in possession of needles at a race faces a 5 year prison sentence

That would explain why Wiggo says he never sees the bag, riders is also subject to the needles charge

My understanding is Fluimicil in suspension form is what is used as deconjestant when nebulized and the same suspension can be injected an anti-oxident too. Clearly the team were heading directly to the training camp that evening. Just my hunch, but I think Phil Bert packaged everything Freeman was low on and would be against no-needles policy while at Dauphine. He wouldn't have had B12 as that would be evidnce of needles and he wouldn't have had Fluimicil in suspension as that could also be seen as breaking no-needles policy. Needles would also be required for any legal IV recovery at the training camp after midnight which is when the UCI period of competition and the no-needles rule ends.
I honestly think the whistleblower to Lawton got his story wrong. 6 years ago, he remembers a package, he remembers needles and he remembers Wiggins going on the bus. The Fancy Bears TUE was published, he put two and two together and assumed the package was Triamcinlone. He could be correct, but there's a lot more sense to the committee whistleblower than Lawton's. At least in terms of a believable story. If we've learnt anything, it's Sky appear to walk right up to the line of what is legal. Delivery of needles a few hours before midnight once the Dauphine finished crossed that line and this is why much of what came from Brailsford originally didn't make sense, because he knows they broke the no-needles policy introduced just a coulple of months earlier at Giro, even if nothing was ever injected until next day at the training camp and would have been within the rules.

Genius!!

And the testosterone patches?

 

[Bronstein]

Re: Re:

He saying if it's Fluimucil in the bag it would also contain needles and B vitamins

Freeman and Brailsford say its Fluimucil that's for a nebulizer and there's nothing else in the package, because a Doctor in possession of needles at a race faces a 5 year prison sentence

That would explain why Wiggo says he never sees the bag, riders is also subject to the needles charge

My understanding is Fluimicil in suspension form is what is used as deconjestant when nebulized and the same suspension can be injected an anti-oxident too. Clearly the team were heading directly to the training camp that evening. Just my hunch, but I think Phil Bert packaged everything Freeman was low on and would be against no-needles policy while at Dauphine. He wouldn't have had B12 as that would be evidnce of needles and he wouldn't have had Fluimicil in suspension as that could also be seen as breaking no-needles policy. Needles would also be required for any legal IV recovery at the training camp after midnight which is when the UCI period of competition and the no-needles rule ends.
I honestly think the whistleblower to Lawton got his story wrong. 6 years ago, he remembers a package, he remembers needles and he remembers Wiggins going on the bus. The Fancy Bears TUE was published, he put two and two together and assumed the package was Triamcinlone. He could be correct, but there's a lot more sense to the committee whistleblower than Lawton's. At least in terms of a believable story. If we've learnt anything, it's Sky appear to walk right up to the line of what is legal. Delivery of needles a few hours before midnight once the Dauphine finished crossed that line and this is why much of what came from Brailsford originally didn't make sense, because he knows they broke the no-needles policy introduced just a coulple of months earlier at Giro, even if nothing was ever injected until next day at the training camp and would have been within the rules.

False. The ban on injections also applies out of competition.

Try again.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

He saying if it's Fluimucil in the bag it would also contain needles and B vitamins

Freeman and Brailsford say its Fluimucil that's for a nebulizer and there's nothing else in the package, because a Doctor in possession of needles at a race faces a 5 year prison sentence

That would explain why Wiggo says he never sees the bag, riders is also subject to the needles charge

My understanding is Fluimicil in suspension form is what is used as deconjestant when nebulized and the same suspension can be injected an anti-oxident too. Clearly the team were heading directly to the training camp that evening. Just my hunch, but I think Phil Bert packaged everything Freeman was low on and would be against no-needles policy while at Dauphine. He wouldn't have had B12 as that would be evidnce of needles and he wouldn't have had Fluimicil in suspension as that could also be seen as breaking no-needles policy. Needles would also be required for any legal IV recovery at the training camp after midnight which is when the UCI period of competition and the no-needles rule ends.
I honestly think the whistleblower to Lawton got his story wrong. 6 years ago, he remembers a package, he remembers needles and he remembers Wiggins going on the bus. The Fancy Bears TUE was published, he put two and two together and assumed the package was Triamcinlone. He could be correct, but there's a lot more sense to the committee whistleblower than Lawton's. At least in terms of a believable story. If we've learnt anything, it's Sky appear to walk right up to the line of what is legal. Delivery of needles a few hours before midnight once the Dauphine finished crossed that line and this is why much of what came from Brailsford originally didn't make sense, because he knows they broke the no-needles policy introduced just a coulple of months earlier at Giro, even if nothing was ever injected until next day at the training camp and would have been within the rules.

the problem we have is that we know they are lying and we know we have a GT donkey in GT winning form

your suggestions could fill in the gaps but its at the lower end of what else could full the gaps

remember the GT donkey is now a GT winner...... cope wasn't delivering bread and water (which are also widely available in France )

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re: Re:

Do consider all aspects of the story before attempting to belittle and patronise people for their opinions and theories on said story.

Why is it sum people think it is belittle and patronising when their errors get pointed out?

irony?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Do consider all aspects of the story before attempting to belittle and patronise people for their opinions and theories on said story.

Why is it sum people think it is belittle and patronising when their errors get pointed out?

irony?

Unlikely, given the inability of many hereabouts to recognise humour when it's staring them in the face.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

He saying if it's Fluimucil in the bag it would also contain needles and B vitamins

Freeman and Brailsford say its Fluimucil that's for a nebulizer and there's nothing else in the package, because a Doctor in possession of needles at a race faces a 5 year prison sentence

That would explain why Wiggo says he never sees the bag, riders is also subject to the needles charge

My understanding is Fluimicil in suspension form is what is used as deconjestant when nebulized and the same suspension can be injected an anti-oxident too. Clearly the team were heading directly to the training camp that evening. Just my hunch, but I think Phil Bert packaged everything Freeman was low on and would be against no-needles policy while at Dauphine. He wouldn't have had B12 as that would be evidnce of needles and he wouldn't have had Fluimicil in suspension as that could also be seen as breaking no-needles policy. Needles would also be required for any legal IV recovery at the training camp after midnight which is when the UCI period of competition and the no-needles rule ends.
I honestly think the whistleblower to Lawton got his story wrong. 6 years ago, he remembers a package, he remembers needles and he remembers Wiggins going on the bus. The Fancy Bears TUE was published, he put two and two together and assumed the package was Triamcinlone. He could be correct, but there's a lot more sense to the committee whistleblower than Lawton's. At least in terms of a believable story. If we've learnt anything, it's Sky appear to walk right up to the line of what is legal. Delivery of needles a few hours before midnight once the Dauphine finished crossed that line and this is why much of what came from Brailsford originally didn't make sense, because he knows they broke the no-needles policy introduced just a coulple of months earlier at Giro, even if nothing was ever injected until next day at the training camp and would have been within the rules.

Shoot the whistleblower, but let Sky off their constant lying! 7 years of lies!

Sorry Sam, you aint doing nothing in here but trying to derail.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

He saying if it's Fluimucil in the bag it would also contain needles and B vitamins

Freeman and Brailsford say its Fluimucil that's for a nebulizer and there's nothing else in the package, because a Doctor in possession of needles at a race faces a 5 year prison sentence

That would explain why Wiggo says he never sees the bag, riders is also subject to the needles charge

My understanding is Fluimicil in suspension form is what is used as deconjestant when nebulized and the same suspension can be injected an anti-oxident too. Clearly the team were heading directly to the training camp that evening. Just my hunch, but I think Phil Bert packaged everything Freeman was low on and would be against no-needles policy while at Dauphine. He wouldn't have had B12 as that would be evidnce of needles and he wouldn't have had Fluimicil in suspension as that could also be seen as breaking no-needles policy. Needles would also be required for any legal IV recovery at the training camp after midnight which is when the UCI period of competition and the no-needles rule ends.
I honestly think the whistleblower to Lawton got his story wrong. 6 years ago, he remembers a package, he remembers needles and he remembers Wiggins going on the bus. The Fancy Bears TUE was published, he put two and two together and assumed the package was Triamcinlone. He could be correct, but there's a lot more sense to the committee whistleblower than Lawton's. At least in terms of a believable story. If we've learnt anything, it's Sky appear to walk right up to the line of what is legal. Delivery of needles a few hours before midnight once the Dauphine finished crossed that line and this is why much of what came from Brailsford originally didn't make sense, because he knows they broke the no-needles policy introduced just a coulple of months earlier at Giro, even if nothing was ever injected until next day at the training camp and would have been within the rules.

False. The ban on injections also applies out of competition.

Try again.

That's not correct. In 2011 No injections were allowed within two days of a race. In 2013 that period was extended by UCI to eight days. There is no part of the UCI no-needle policy that applies after the period of competition closes, which is midnight for all races other than the Grand Tours iirc.

 

[Bronstein]

Re: Re:

He saying if it's Fluimucil in the bag it would also contain needles and B vitamins

Freeman and Brailsford say its Fluimucil that's for a nebulizer and there's nothing else in the package, because a Doctor in possession of needles at a race faces a 5 year prison sentence

That would explain why Wiggo says he never sees the bag, riders is also subject to the needles charge

My understanding is Fluimicil in suspension form is what is used as deconjestant when nebulized and the same suspension can be injected an anti-oxident too. Clearly the team were heading directly to the training camp that evening. Just my hunch, but I think Phil Bert packaged everything Freeman was low on and would be against no-needles policy while at Dauphine. He wouldn't have had B12 as that would be evidnce of needles and he wouldn't have had Fluimicil in suspension as that could also be seen as breaking no-needles policy. Needles would also be required for any legal IV recovery at the training camp after midnight which is when the UCI period of competition and the no-needles rule ends.
I honestly think the whistleblower to Lawton got his story wrong. 6 years ago, he remembers a package, he remembers needles and he remembers Wiggins going on the bus. The Fancy Bears TUE was published, he put two and two together and assumed the package was Triamcinlone. He could be correct, but there's a lot more sense to the committee whistleblower than Lawton's. At least in terms of a believable story. If we've learnt anything, it's Sky appear to walk right up to the line of what is legal. Delivery of needles a few hours before midnight once the Dauphine finished crossed that line and this is why much of what came from Brailsford originally didn't make sense, because he knows they broke the no-needles policy introduced just a coulple of months earlier at Giro, even if nothing was ever injected until next day at the training camp and would have been within the rules.

False. The ban on injections also applies out of competition.

Try again.

That's not correct. In 2011 No injections were allowed within two days of a race. In 2013 that period was extended by UCI to eight days. There is no part of the UCI no-needle policy that applies after the period of competition closes, which is midnight for all races other than the Grand Tours iirc.

The eight-day period only applies to glucocorticosteroid injections:

In case of a local injection of glucocorticosteroids, which is subject also to the UCI
Anti-Doping Rules and the Prohibited List, the rider must rest and is excluded from
competition for 8 days.

Please point out where it says the no needle policy does not apply out of competition.

UCI Medical Rules: http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/69/13-SEC-20150101-E_English.pdf

 

[fmk_RoI]

For those who've never bothered to read it, the no needles policy:

§ 4 Ban on injections

Comment: the aim of this paragraph is to prohibit the use of injections to administer drugs or substances without a clear and recognized medical indication (i.e vitamins, enzymes, cofactors, sugars, amino-acids, proteins, antioxydants, etc.). In particular, it refers to injections aimed at improving and speeding up recovery or decreasing fatigue

13.3.052 The injection of any substance to any site of a rider’s body is prohibited unless all of
the following conditions are met:

1. The injection must be medically justified based on best practice. Justification includes physical examination by a certified medical doctor and an appropriately documented diagnosis, medication and route of administration;

2. There is no alternative treatment without injection available;

3. The injection must respect the manufacturer-approved indication of the medication;

4. The injection must be administered by a certified medical professional except where normal practice is that the patient with a disease requiring injections injects him/herself (for example diabetes);

5. The injection must be reported immediately and in writing not later than 24 hours afterwards to the UCI Doctor (via email [medical@uci.ch] or fax [+41 24 468 59 48]), except for riders

a. With a valid TUE;

b. Vaccination

c. When the injection is received during hospital treatment or clinical examination;

d. When normal practice is that the patient with a disease requiring injections injects him/herself.

The report must be made by the medical doctor having examined the rider and must include the confirmation that a physical examination took place, the diagnosis, medication and route of administration. Where applicable it shall also include the prescription referred to in article 13.1.065.

Comment to par. 5: the report may be sent by the medical doctor or the rider. The rider is responsible for the report to be sent.

13.3.053 The prohibition under article 13.3.052 applies to any substance that is injected, whether endogenous or exogenous, whether prohibited under the UCI Anti-Doping Rules or not.

13.3.054 The prohibition under article 13.3.052 applies to any type of injection: intravenous, intramuscular, intra-articular, peri-articular, peri-tendinous, epidural, intra-dermal, subcutaneous, etc.

13.3.055 In case of a local injection of glucocorticosteroids, which is subject also to the UCI Anti-Doping Rules and the Prohibited List, the rider must rest and is excluded from competition for 8 days.

The medical doctor having prescribed the injection shall prescribe this rest in writing to the rider and add to the documentation referred to in article 13.3.052.1 a copy of such prescription signed by him/herself and the rider.

13.3.056 In case of an injection of a prohibited substance, in addition to the requirements of articles 13.3.052 and 13.3.055, a Therapeutic Use Exemption remains required and the procedure foreseen in article 4 of the UCI Anti-Doping Rules has to be followed.

13.3.057 The following penalties may be imposed by the UCI Disciplinary Commission in the event of an infringement of article 13.3.052: suspension from eight days to six months and/or a fine of CHF 1,000 to CHF 100,000; in the case of a second offence within two years of the first: a suspension of at least six months or lifetime suspension and a fine of CHF 10,000 to CHF 200,000.

The penalties shall apply to any licence-holder found to have committed the violation or to be an accomplice; application of article 1.1.086 is reserved;

13.3.058 In addition to the sanctions stipulated in article 13.3.057 the following shall apply:

1. In case of infringement of article 13.3.055 all results obtained by the rider in the 48 hours period shall be disqualified.

2. In case a violation of article 13.3.052 occurs at a race the licence holder(s) concerned and, where appropriate, the whole team of the licence holder(s) at fault may be excluded from the race; in this respect the possession of objects used or fit for an injection shall be presumed to constitute evidence of a violation of article 13.3.052 having been committed except if the objects are in the possession of the medical doctor who has made the report referred to in article 13.3.052.5 and are covered by such report and except for those objects that may reasonably be in a medical doctor’s possession. The exclusion may be decided by the president of the commissaires’ panel after having given the persons concerned the opportunity to be heard or by the president of the UCI Disciplinary Commission upon report by the president of the commissaires’ panel.

13.3.059 At stage races expedited disciplinary proceedings may be conducted as determined by the president of the UCI Disciplinary Commission.

13.3.060 The disposal of any material used for an injection shall conform to recognised safety standards.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

He saying if it's Fluimucil in the bag it would also contain needles and B vitamins

Freeman and Brailsford say its Fluimucil that's for a nebulizer and there's nothing else in the package, because a Doctor in possession of needles at a race faces a 5 year prison sentence

That would explain why Wiggo says he never sees the bag, riders is also subject to the needles charge

My understanding is Fluimicil in suspension form is what is used as deconjestant when nebulized and the same suspension can be injected an anti-oxident too. Clearly the team were heading directly to the training camp that evening. Just my hunch, but I think Phil Bert packaged everything Freeman was low on and would be against no-needles policy while at Dauphine. He wouldn't have had B12 as that would be evidnce of needles and he wouldn't have had Fluimicil in suspension as that could also be seen as breaking no-needles policy. Needles would also be required for any legal IV recovery at the training camp after midnight which is when the UCI period of competition and the no-needles rule ends.
I honestly think the whistleblower to Lawton got his story wrong. 6 years ago, he remembers a package, he remembers needles and he remembers Wiggins going on the bus. The Fancy Bears TUE was published, he put two and two together and assumed the package was Triamcinlone. He could be correct, but there's a lot more sense to the committee whistleblower than Lawton's. At least in terms of a believable story. If we've learnt anything, it's Sky appear to walk right up to the line of what is legal. Delivery of needles a few hours before midnight once the Dauphine finished crossed that line and this is why much of what came from Brailsford originally didn't make sense, because he knows they broke the no-needles policy introduced just a coulple of months earlier at Giro, even if nothing was ever injected until next day at the training camp and would have been within the rules.

False. The ban on injections also applies out of competition.

Try again.

That's not correct. In 2011 No injections were allowed within two days of a race. In 2013 that period was extended by UCI to eight days. There is no part of the UCI no-needle policy that applies after the period of competition closes, which is midnight for all races other than the Grand Tours iirc.

The eight-day period only applies to glucocorticosteroid injections:

In case of a local injection of glucocorticosteroids, which is subject also to the UCI
Anti-Doping Rules and the Prohibited List, the rider must rest and is excluded from
competition for 8 days.

Please point out where it says the no needle policy does not apply out of competition.

UCI Medical Rules: http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/69/13-SEC-20150101-E_English.pdf

I'm talking about having no-needles in your Team's possession during the UCI event period. Clearly team doctors will have injectable & IV equipment for medical need outside the event period. The UCI No-Needles policy clearly allows that. Even the whitslblower himself confirms Cavendish flying for IV recovery with Freeman. He states that was within the rules.

 

[thehog]

What you’re trying to say, is the ban is on “injections” rather than having needles in your possession.

 

[thehog]

"That was the thing that upset me the most about 2009 and 2010. I thought you lying *******. I can still remember going toe-to-toe with him, watching him and his body language. The man I saw at the top of Verbier in 2009 to the man I saw on the top of Ventoux two weeks later, it wasn't the same bike rider. Watch the videos and see the way the guy was riding. I just don't believe anything that comes out of his mouth anymore," said Wiggins.

"Part of me didn't want to watch it, the fan in me didn't really want that perception of him to be broken as an amazing athlete. But I watched it with my seven-year-old son, and those initial first questions - the yes/no answers - watching him suddenly cave in after all these years of lying so convincingly... there was a lot of anger, a lot of sadness... I was slightly emotional as well if I'm honest. It was difficult to watch really. My wife couldn't watch it, she walked out the room.

"It's heartbreaking for the sport, but then the anger kicks in and you start thinking "you f*****g a******e" or whatever feelings most people had when watching it. I had to explain to my son what it's all about, he's won the same race as his dad has won. But by the end of the hour-and-a-half, I had the best feeling in the world.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...-wiggins-no-sympathy-for-lance-armstrong.html

Sorry, I accidentally went back to the first post on this thread. Knowing what we kmow now, Wiggins is horribly hypocritical and bringing his son into the equation.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

I'm talking about having no-needles in your Team's possession during the UCI event period.

Please highlight where this is set out in the rules.

 

[samhocking]

I'm referring to this line really.

In case a violation of article 13.3.052 occurs at a race the licence holder(s)
concerned and, where appropriate, the whole team of the licence holder(s) at
fault may be excluded from the race; in this respect the possession of objects
used or fit for an injection shall be presumed to constitute evidence of a
violation of article 13.3.052 having been committed except if the objects are in
the possession of the medical doctor who has made the report referred to in
article 13.3.052.5 and are covered by such report and except for those objects
that may reasonably be in a medical doctor’s possession. The exclusion may
be decided by the president of the commissaires’ panel after having given the
persons concerned the opportunity to be heard or by the president of the UCI
Disciplinary Commission upon report by the president of the commissaires’
panel.

I've never heard of IV being illegal out of competition anywhere. Even the Committee whistle blower says Cavendish took IV recover between 2012 Tour & Olympics and this didn't break any rules.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

I've never heard of IV being illegal out of competition anywhere.

I have. If you want a pop quiz story, Google Samir Nasri. And look at the changes to the WADA list for 2018.

 

[samhocking]

Illegal without medical need, of course. That's not we're talking about though. We're talking about a doctor having needles in his possession during UCI even period. That is what the whistleblower it talking about and what i'm referring to. I have no idea what rider out of the 20 odd at that training camp's medical need was do I.

 

[Bronstein]

Re: Re:

I'm talking about having no-needles in your Team's possession during the UCI event period. Clearly team doctors will have injectable & IV equipment for medical need outside the event period. The UCI No-Needles policy clearly allows that. Even the whitslblower himself confirms Cavendish flying for IV recovery with Freeman. He states that was within the rules.

No, you started off by talking about injections, and then moved on to glucocorticosteroid injections. You've now moved the goalposts again by pretending that you were only referring to needles.

IV therapy:

In accordance with the WADA Prohibited List (Category M2 Chemical and Physical Manipulation), all IV infusions and/or injections of more than 50mL (~3.4 tablespoons) per 6-hour period are prohibited, except for those legitimately received in the course of hospital admissions, surgical procedures or clinical investigations. IV infusions and/or injections of more than 50mL per 6-hour period are prohibited at all times, both in- and out-of-competition unless the athlete has applied for and been granted a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) under the applicable anti-doping rules.

By the way, why are you referring to injections given the following:

Doctor Freeman told me that it was Fluimucil that was in the package, a product that is for a nebuliser.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Illegal without medical need, of course. That's not we're talking about though.

You keep saying 'this' isn't what we're talking about...

 

[Digger]

Re: Re:

He saying if it's Fluimucil in the bag it would also contain needles and B vitamins

Freeman and Brailsford say its Fluimucil that's for a nebulizer and there's nothing else in the package, because a Doctor in possession of needles at a race faces a 5 year prison sentence

That would explain why Wiggo says he never sees the bag, riders is also subject to the needles charge

My understanding is Fluimicil in suspension form is what is used as deconjestant when nebulized and the same suspension can be injected an anti-oxident too. Clearly the team were heading directly to the training camp that evening. Just my hunch, but I think Phil Bert packaged everything Freeman was low on and would be against no-needles policy while at Dauphine. He wouldn't have had B12 as that would be evidnce of needles and he wouldn't have had Fluimicil in suspension as that could also be seen as breaking no-needles policy. Needles would also be required for any legal IV recovery at the training camp after midnight which is when the UCI period of competition and the no-needles rule ends.
I honestly think the whistleblower to Lawton got his story wrong. 6 years ago, he remembers a package, he remembers needles and he remembers Wiggins going on the bus. The Fancy Bears TUE was published, he put two and two together and assumed the package was Triamcinlone. He could be correct, but there's a lot more sense to the committee whistleblower than Lawton's. At least in terms of a believable story. If we've learnt anything, it's Sky appear to walk right up to the line of what is legal. Delivery of needles a few hours before midnight once the Dauphine finished crossed that line and this is why much of what came from Brailsford originally didn't make sense, because he knows they broke the no-needles policy introduced just a coulple of months earlier at Giro, even if nothing was ever injected until next day at the training camp and would have been within the rules.

Your understanding, as you say yourself, is wishful thinking in the extreme. It was kenacort.

Now can you address the testosterone patches.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Your understanding, as you say yourself, is wishful thinking in the extreme. It was kenacort.

Now can you address the testosterone patches.

Well who *hasn't* gotten an erroneous shipment or two from time to time?

John Swanson

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

He saying if it's Fluimucil in the bag it would also contain needles and B vitamins

Freeman and Brailsford say its Fluimucil that's for a nebulizer and there's nothing else in the package, because a Doctor in possession of needles at a race faces a 5 year prison sentence

That would explain why Wiggo says he never sees the bag, riders is also subject to the needles charge

My understanding is Fluimicil in suspension form is what is used as deconjestant when nebulized and the same suspension can be injected an anti-oxident too. Clearly the team were heading directly to the training camp that evening. Just my hunch, but I think Phil Bert packaged everything Freeman was low on and would be against no-needles policy while at Dauphine. He wouldn't have had B12 as that would be evidnce of needles and he wouldn't have had Fluimicil in suspension as that could also be seen as breaking no-needles policy. Needles would also be required for any legal IV recovery at the training camp after midnight which is when the UCI period of competition and the no-needles rule ends.
I honestly think the whistleblower to Lawton got his story wrong. 6 years ago, he remembers a package, he remembers needles and he remembers Wiggins going on the bus. The Fancy Bears TUE was published, he put two and two together and assumed the package was Triamcinlone. He could be correct, but there's a lot more sense to the committee whistleblower than Lawton's. At least in terms of a believable story. If we've learnt anything, it's Sky appear to walk right up to the line of what is legal. Delivery of needles a few hours before midnight once the Dauphine finished crossed that line and this is why much of what came from Brailsford originally didn't make sense, because he knows they broke the no-needles policy introduced just a coulple of months earlier at Giro, even if nothing was ever injected until next day at the training camp and would have been within the rules.

Your understanding, as you say yourself, is wishful thinking in the extreme. It was kenacort.

Now can you address the testosterone patches.

whistleblower #1 to Committee: Fluimucil

whistleblower #2 to Lawton: Kenacort

maybe
maybe not

who to believe?
#1? #2? #Digger?

digger knows more?
digger knows less?

wishful thinking too?

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re: Re:

He saying if it's Fluimucil in the bag it would also contain needles and B vitamins

Freeman and Brailsford say its Fluimucil that's for a nebulizer and there's nothing else in the package, because a Doctor in possession of needles at a race faces a 5 year prison sentence

That would explain why Wiggo says he never sees the bag, riders is also subject to the needles charge

My understanding is Fluimicil in suspension form is what is used as deconjestant when nebulized and the same suspension can be injected an anti-oxident too. Clearly the team were heading directly to the training camp that evening. Just my hunch, but I think Phil Bert packaged everything Freeman was low on and would be against no-needles policy while at Dauphine. He wouldn't have had B12 as that would be evidnce of needles and he wouldn't have had Fluimicil in suspension as that could also be seen as breaking no-needles policy. Needles would also be required for any legal IV recovery at the training camp after midnight which is when the UCI period of competition and the no-needles rule ends.
I honestly think the whistleblower to Lawton got his story wrong. 6 years ago, he remembers a package, he remembers needles and he remembers Wiggins going on the bus. The Fancy Bears TUE was published, he put two and two together and assumed the package was Triamcinlone. He could be correct, but there's a lot more sense to the committee whistleblower than Lawton's. At least in terms of a believable story. If we've learnt anything, it's Sky appear to walk right up to the line of what is legal. Delivery of needles a few hours before midnight once the Dauphine finished crossed that line and this is why much of what came from Brailsford originally didn't make sense, because he knows they broke the no-needles policy introduced just a coulple of months earlier at Giro, even if nothing was ever injected until next day at the training camp and would have been within the rules.

Your understanding, as you say yourself, is wishful thinking in the extreme. It was kenacort.

Now can you address the testosterone patches.

whistleblower #1 to Committee: Fluimucil

whistleblower #2 to Lawton: Kenacort

maybe
maybe not

who to believe?
#1? #2? #Digger?

digger knows more?
digger knows less?

wishful thinking too?

Whistleblowers #1 and #2 are in the wrong order there

#1 kicked the whole thing off by telling Lawton and UKAD it was Kenacort in the package

#2 wrote to the DCMS committee after everyone had testified