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Re: Re:
Yep Leinders taught Freeman (previously employed by Bolton Football Club - so before going to the dark side he was one of Brailsford's British much vaunted doctors untainted by continental pro racing metier) how to game the TUE system. And Leinders' mate Zorzoli was the facilitator at the UCI. Leinders at the heart of it all
Would be nice to think that it light of Sutton's admission Wiggo's results while racing under triamcinolone TUEs could be re-visited. But Sky will just point to Zorzoli signing off the TUEs
Rollthedice said:
Yep Leinders taught Freeman (previously employed by Bolton Football Club - so before going to the dark side he was one of Brailsford's British much vaunted doctors untainted by continental pro racing metier) how to game the TUE system. And Leinders' mate Zorzoli was the facilitator at the UCI. Leinders at the heart of it all
Would be nice to think that it light of Sutton's admission Wiggo's results while racing under triamcinolone TUEs could be re-visited. But Sky will just point to Zorzoli signing off the TUEs
So what has to happen for the UCI to get involved in this? And what has to happen for WADA or anyone to open an investigation against Sky where all their riders would be interviewed? Does it have to be taken up by a journalist like the Armstrong case?
Re:
Didn't that happen already, ie. it all started with the journalist and was then picked up by UKAD?
Just that none of the authorities who were given the ball to run with seem to have the ability to do anything with it
Craigee said:
Didn't that happen already, ie. it all started with the journalist and was then picked up by UKAD?
Just that none of the authorities who were given the ball to run with seem to have the ability to do anything with it
Re: Re:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/bradley-wiggins-tue-case-highlights-crisis-facing-anti-doping-authorities/
'Prentice Steffen was Wiggins’ team doctor in 2009 during the rider’s one-year stint at Garmin-Slipstream. Wiggins finished fourth that year in the Tour, an incredible achievement in itself given his lack of results in Grand Tour riding until that point. Steffen, who helped bring Garmin on board as one of the founding members of the Movement for Credible Cycling (MPCC) has watched through gritted teeth as the jiffy bag story has unfolded over the last 14 months. He has now left Slipstream Sports but believes there are clouds hanging over both Team Sky and Wiggins.
“I never thought of Bradley as an intensely medical type so I have to feel like he had some bad advice and it’s unfortunate it’s played out this way. If he’d stayed with us then this wouldn’t have happened. Maybe he wouldn’t have won the Tour, maybe he would have, but I do feel like there’s a bit of an asterisk next to that Tour victory... One reaction I had was when Brailsford mentioned that it was all above board. However, for me, if it takes Russian hackers to expose the information then it’s not terribly above board. The Sutton comments make what they did clearly unethical. Technically it’s not illegal but I think that Sky behaved unethically and if the medical staff tried to slip one past WADA and the UCI, that wasn’t the right thing to do.” '
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/bradley-wiggins-tue-case-highlights-crisis-facing-anti-doping-authorities/
'Prentice Steffen was Wiggins’ team doctor in 2009 during the rider’s one-year stint at Garmin-Slipstream. Wiggins finished fourth that year in the Tour, an incredible achievement in itself given his lack of results in Grand Tour riding until that point. Steffen, who helped bring Garmin on board as one of the founding members of the Movement for Credible Cycling (MPCC) has watched through gritted teeth as the jiffy bag story has unfolded over the last 14 months. He has now left Slipstream Sports but believes there are clouds hanging over both Team Sky and Wiggins.
“I never thought of Bradley as an intensely medical type so I have to feel like he had some bad advice and it’s unfortunate it’s played out this way. If he’d stayed with us then this wouldn’t have happened. Maybe he wouldn’t have won the Tour, maybe he would have, but I do feel like there’s a bit of an asterisk next to that Tour victory... One reaction I had was when Brailsford mentioned that it was all above board. However, for me, if it takes Russian hackers to expose the information then it’s not terribly above board. The Sutton comments make what they did clearly unethical. Technically it’s not illegal but I think that Sky behaved unethically and if the medical staff tried to slip one past WADA and the UCI, that wasn’t the right thing to do.” '
Renee Anne Shirley and Ross Tucker are gems when it comes to matters in anti-doping - Throwing more money at NADO's is usually not the solution - How many large-scale doping cases have come from the intelligence/expertise of NADO's - Few if any - The big breakthroughs come from Police/Customs/Border Control etc - And spare me bleating journalists like Jeremy Whittle who accuse NADO's of sitting on their feet or dragging the chain, then suddenly do a 180and claim they need more power and resources - Why you would suggest this is breathtaking.
Re:
It is needed to prove Wiggins got an injection of Kenacort from Freeman, delivered by Simon Cope, on the last day of the Dauphine before midnight in the back of the bus, which is considered in competition and with no TUE is an anti doping violation.
UCI will not go looking for this. It will yet again be up to outside sources to prove this, then UCI, WADA, French anti-doping willl have no choice but to sanction Wiggins and strip him of everything from that day, including his TdF win.
It they don't, they will have lost any shred of credibility they had left.
Several journalists have this information, but i guess are not able to prove it yet as the source will not go on record or they are waiting for a second source to confirm.
Craigee said:
It is needed to prove Wiggins got an injection of Kenacort from Freeman, delivered by Simon Cope, on the last day of the Dauphine before midnight in the back of the bus, which is considered in competition and with no TUE is an anti doping violation.
UCI will not go looking for this. It will yet again be up to outside sources to prove this, then UCI, WADA, French anti-doping willl have no choice but to sanction Wiggins and strip him of everything from that day, including his TdF win.
It they don't, they will have lost any shred of credibility they had left.
Several journalists have this information, but i guess are not able to prove it yet as the source will not go on record or they are waiting for a second source to confirm.
It is funny the question, "Is Wiggins exonerated?"
He is so close to being proven to have been doping.
We know he doped, he knows we know he doped, Sky know we know he doped, the media knows he doped and it will out sooner or later but he must be jumping everytime the phone rings.........
The dots and there are now so many and Suttons admission that the Kenacort was not medicinal but a gain, is doping and if the UCI, UKAD or WADA were truly anti-doping Wiggins would have been stripped by now, but becuase they are nowt more than puppets it will take proof of the jiffy bags contents, aka Kenacort to bust him. But knowing Wiggins and his emotional state he will be hating this. No wonder he is gone to rowing and left cycling. It must hurt.
He is so close to being proven to have been doping.
We know he doped, he knows we know he doped, Sky know we know he doped, the media knows he doped and it will out sooner or later but he must be jumping everytime the phone rings.........
The dots and there are now so many and Suttons admission that the Kenacort was not medicinal but a gain, is doping and if the UCI, UKAD or WADA were truly anti-doping Wiggins would have been stripped by now, but becuase they are nowt more than puppets it will take proof of the jiffy bags contents, aka Kenacort to bust him. But knowing Wiggins and his emotional state he will be hating this. No wonder he is gone to rowing and left cycling. It must hurt.
A big stumbling block is the Sky Staff whisteblower statement to the Committee. His statement says it wasn't Triamcinolone in the package, it was indeed Fluamicil to be used as an anti-oxident recovery and so he believes needles were in the jiffy bag and therefore the no-needles recovery rule was broken. However, the whistleblower to Daily Mail & UKAD believed it to be Triamcinolone and Matt Lawton says that whisteblower came forward because of the Fancy Bears leak, not because the no-needles policy was broken. When the two main whistleblowers in all this are not on the same page, it's not encouraging anyone will get the bottom of this perhaps?
Re: Re:
Steffen was involved for Wiggins to get his 3 TUEs while at Garmin in 2009. Is he saying Salbutamol, Corticosteroid Budesonide & β2-agonist Formoterol is ethical because Wiggins needed it. If he needed it, he actually agrees with Sutton. If he doesn't think those 3 TUEs made any difference to Wiggins performance, why is he signing off needless prescription medication to a rider via TUE?
Wiggo's Package said:
Steffen was involved for Wiggins to get his 3 TUEs while at Garmin in 2009. Is he saying Salbutamol, Corticosteroid Budesonide & β2-agonist Formoterol is ethical because Wiggins needed it. If he needed it, he actually agrees with Sutton. If he doesn't think those 3 TUEs made any difference to Wiggins performance, why is he signing off needless prescription medication to a rider via TUE?
Re: Re:
Are you positive it was Steffen. JV claims to have Garmin had nothing to do with Wiggins in 2009 and that Sky had already begun training him.samhocking said:
JV is a career liar and fraud so while he could have been telling the truth, he could have just been seeking the thrill he gets from lying when he said that.
Re: Re:
Now when my child recently went to hospital because he wasn't responding to the Salbutamol? That's when he got a corticosteroid similar to Kenacort. Blam! He sure responded to that! It's pretty much the difference between a cup of coffee and doing lines of cocaine. They're both stimulants but... One's mild and one's a wee bit more powerful.
John Swanson
Those are the actual tools used to treat asthma. I've used them. My four year old uses a similar corticosteroid (Fluticasone) daily. I can tell you that these products will let you ride, but aren't performance enhancing in any real way. In fact, if I have to reach for the Salbutamol, my race is typically over.samhocking said:
Now when my child recently went to hospital because he wasn't responding to the Salbutamol? That's when he got a corticosteroid similar to Kenacort. Blam! He sure responded to that! It's pretty much the difference between a cup of coffee and doing lines of cocaine. They're both stimulants but... One's mild and one's a wee bit more powerful.
John Swanson
samhocking said:
The senior Team Sky insider who gave the jiffy bag story to Matt Lawton hit the nail on the head it was triamcinolone in the package taken on a race day without a TUE and therefore a doping violation
The recent statement to the DCMS committee is a deflection tactic just Brailsford thinking he's clever the usual BS
Wiggo's Package said:
Glad you've cleared that one up and given us the facts. Presume you've passed your concrete evidence onto the relevant authorities?
Just one question. Why would on earth would Sky, who we've already established were well versed in 'gaming' the TUE system, take such a huge risk by administering this without a TUE?
brownbobby said:
because looks what its taken to even find out what we have...a parliamentary committee
they never thought they would be put under this much scrutiny...or in other words..it was very low risk, they thought they could get away with it
gillan1969 said:
No, i think you miss the point of the question. I'm not referring to the whole issue of cortisone use and TUE's in general, but specifically using a banned substance in competition without a TUE. Surely this would be considered very high risk.
Certainly much, much riskier than the option of applying for a TUE to use said substance which we now know they were happy to do...
brownbobby said:
i'm not up on the the physiological response of the PED in question in that much detail however presumably it made a difference to inject as early post-race as possible, hence the timing...presumably they "knew" the testing window and so could, even if tested, blur the lines between pre and post midnight when, as I understand it, it became legal.....
another explanation is of course arrogance......remember it was McQuaid running the show and who pre-declared the tour winner and reminded everyone on London how the "fairytale" was continuing...
as an aside, of course not that it would have changed much as it was Cookson that took over......from outside looking in you really couldn't make up the UCI
Just one question. Why would on earth would Sky, who we've already established were well versed in 'gaming' the TUE system, take such a huge risk by administering this without a TUE?[/quote]
because looks what its taken to even find out what we have...a parliamentary committee
they never thought they would be put under this much scrutiny...or in other words..it was very low risk, they thought they could get away with it[/quote]
No, i think you miss the point of the question. I'm not referring to the whole issue of cortisone use and TUE's in general, but specifically using a banned substance in competition without a TUE. Surely this would be considered very high risk.
Certainly much, much riskier than the option of applying for a TUE to use said substance which we now know they were happy to do...[/quote]
i'm not up on the the physiological response of the PED in question in that much detail however presumably it made a difference to inject as early post-race as possible, hence the timing...presumably they "knew" the testing window and so could, even if tested, blur the lines between pre and post midnight when, as I understand it, it became legal.....
another explanation is of course arrogance......remember it was McQuaid running the show and who pre-declared the tour winner and reminded everyone on London how the "fairytale" was continuing...
as an aside, of course not that it would have changed much as it was Cookson that took over......from outside looking in you really couldn't make up the UCI[/quote]
Hmmm, ok interesting theory, i had been wondering why they would be administering something like this at the end of a race but i can see some sense now around the timings based on your theories.
because looks what its taken to even find out what we have...a parliamentary committee
they never thought they would be put under this much scrutiny...or in other words..it was very low risk, they thought they could get away with it[/quote]
No, i think you miss the point of the question. I'm not referring to the whole issue of cortisone use and TUE's in general, but specifically using a banned substance in competition without a TUE. Surely this would be considered very high risk.
Certainly much, much riskier than the option of applying for a TUE to use said substance which we now know they were happy to do...[/quote]
i'm not up on the the physiological response of the PED in question in that much detail however presumably it made a difference to inject as early post-race as possible, hence the timing...presumably they "knew" the testing window and so could, even if tested, blur the lines between pre and post midnight when, as I understand it, it became legal.....
another explanation is of course arrogance......remember it was McQuaid running the show and who pre-declared the tour winner and reminded everyone on London how the "fairytale" was continuing...
as an aside, of course not that it would have changed much as it was Cookson that took over......from outside looking in you really couldn't make up the UCI
[/quote]Hmmm, ok interesting theory, i had been wondering why they would be administering something like this at the end of a race but i can see some sense now around the timings based on your theories.
brownbobby said:
Glad you've cleared that one up and given us the facts. Presume you've passed your concrete evidence onto the relevant authorities?
To be honest Wiggins winning a Tour is every bit as ridiculous as Froome. For Wiggins, they flattered the course, suspended Contador, added ITTs and pumped him full of drugs and he he still only just won. Wiggins at best, clean is a rider finishing 2 hours back on GC.
Benotti69 said:
Yes, definetely more to this than just the jiffy bag. Despite what that publicity whore Millar would have us believe Kenacort/Cortisone is not a game changer turning pack fodder into GT winners. Just the icing on the cake of a much wider doping programe.
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