Wiggins, Clinic respect?

[SundayRider]

If Wiggins was a 'Tim Henman clean cut type' of sports star he would be more liked in the Uk.

 

[will10]

Yes, but it's not true that Sky aren't being singled out or that they are unique in shouting from the rooftops. For one, Garmin/JV shout it louder and with more moral pretense. I've pointed out before that even Ryder's suspicious 2012 blood values and JV's inadequate response gets barely a mention compared to Sky.

It's not about Sky. It's about Britain's self-loathing. Interesting piece in the Guardian by Jonathan Jones, "The excess is not in alcohol but in Britain's self-loathing" states "a country that pictures itself as broken, boozing, morally sick." Interesting that the British here see exactly this in Wiggins.

That's a BS argument. Wiggins is adored in Britain at the moment.

 

[hrotha]

That's a BS argument. Wiggins is adored in Britain at the moment.

And this is an international forum. I wonder how many sceptics here are actually British.

Meh, who cares. Other people have claimed the Clinic scepticism stems from the Americans being butthurt about having lost the Armstrong myth and wanting to bring down Wiggins as a response.

 

[SundayRider]

Most people think he's a bit of an uncouth weirdo.

 

[Joachim]

I was in the UK for a month before Christmas and I saw or heard nothing to suggest that Will10 is wrong.

Mastersracer does have a point though. The Brits are very uncomfortable in their own skins.

 

[SundayRider]

Not all Brits are uncomfortable to be honest. Where I live in the UK lots of people still wouldn't have a clue who he was. The people that have strong opinions on him tend to dislike him though, I can think of very few people who 'love him', lots who respect his achievements but that is all.

 

[Caruut]

And this is an international forum. I wonder how many sceptics here are actually British.

Meh, who cares. Other people have claimed the Clinic scepticism stems from the Americans being butthurt about having lost the Armstrong myth and wanting to bring down Wiggins as a response.

Darryl, myself, a few others. Certainly I was under the impression that the majority of British posters in Sky/Wiggins threads were in the broadly "innocent until proven guilty" camp rather than the broadly "skeptic" camp.

Interesting that posters skeptical of Sky have now been accused of either being Brit-bashers or self-loathing Brits. I would personally not air my views on Sky in general conversation in Britain. Bradley Wiggins is adored over here, and his win is always spoken of as being "and it's great because he's clean" not "it's great even though, since it's cycling, you can't take it all at ace value". People trust Sky. The reasons to be skeptical are simply not aired in the mainstream here.

 

[SundayRider]

Darryl, myself, a few others. Certainly I was under the impression that the majority of British posters in Sky/Wiggins threads were in the broadly "innocent until proven guilty" camp rather than the broadly "skeptic" camp.

Interesting that posters skeptical of Sky have now been accused of either being Brit-bashers or self-loathing Brits. I would personally not air my views on Sky in general conversation in Britain. Bradley Wiggins is adored over here, and his win is always spoken of as being "and it's great because he's clean" not "it's great even though, since it's cycling, you can't take it all at ace value". People trust Sky. The reasons to be skeptical are simply not aired in the mainstream here.

By mainstream I take it you main media? I've had plenty of conversations that are very skeptical about Sky particularly about particularly after the Leinders involvement was made public.

 

[Caruut]

I was in the UK for a month before Christmas and I saw or heard nothing to suggest that Will10 is wrong.

Mastersracer does have a point though. The Brits are very uncomfortable in their own skins.

We are extremely bad, myself especially (EDIT: I really mean people like myself. Very conflicted in most aspects of my identity and self - class, nationality, confidence/arrogance. There is a special kind of middle-class self-loathing in the UK). Can never decide whether I'm a confident person who thinks he's unconfident or a horribly unconfident person who, for the majority of the time, does a passable impression of a confident person.

Don't think it translates to our perception of sporting heroes though - there have been vague rumblings about Djokovic in the press recently but not a whisper regarding Murray. To all intents and purposes the only real difference is that one is a Serb and the other is a Brit - both have extremely similar play styles and if one should come under suspicion I feel the other should. Our sportspeople are heroes when they win and typical underachieving Brits when they lose.

 

[Caruut]

By mainstream I take it you main media? I've had plenty of conversations that are very skeptical about Sky particularly about particularly after the Leinders involvement was made public.

Yes, mainstream media - I tend to just avoid cycling doping talk unless someone else brings it up.

 

[dolophonic]

Jao.. generalizations like this are exactly what you object to others making.
Brit's are fine.

One big diff between Garmin and their proclamations and "Sky high" is the manner of their GT victories. Yes Ryder may be sus but Sky did it in true a postal fashion, as has been documented all over he place.
The extra training, the recon. the cadence ,Altitude camp the pace line up mountins.. the dodgy doc's ... you know all this already.

 

[SundayRider]

I was in the UK for a month before Christmas and I saw or heard nothing to suggest that Will10 is wrong.

Mastersracer does have a point though. The Brits are very uncomfortable in their own skins.

This cracks me up, there are so many very arrogant Brits around and this comes from a Brit.

 

[coinneach]

By mainstream I take it you main media? I've had plenty of conversations that are very skeptical about Sky particularly about particularly after the Leinders involvement was made public.

Yep: I'd agree with that: mainstream / main media.

Club cycling friends spoke with me about the Lance interviews (which I didn't watch). When I suggested there was concerns about how honest/transparent/clean Sky, and therefore Bradley Wiggins was, they were totally horrified. They hadn't heard about Leinders (yet!).

 

[SundayRider]

Yes, mainstream media - I tend to just avoid cycling doping talk unless someone else brings it up.

I like to bring it up, educate a few new fans!

 

[Caruut]

I like to bring it up, educate a few new fans!

Aye, but it's always awkward. Most people are pretty sure they're clean but not bothered about it enough to listen to why they might not be.

 

[roundabout]

That's a BS argument. Wiggins is adored in Britain at the moment.

Exactly. I remember raising an eyebrow this week at the Channel 4 mention of Wiggins restoring faith in cycling.

Maybe it's true, but it sounded a bit too blunt.

Wait, redeeming was the word they used.

 

[SundayRider]

Aye, but it's always awkward. Most people are pretty sure they're clean but not bothered about it enough to listen to why they might not be.

Yeah true. However those who have been long term cycling fans (10 years or more) are very cynical even towards British winners.

 

[will10]

Yeah true. However those who have been long term cycling fans (10 years or more) are very cynical even towards British winners.

I wouldn't tar all long-term fans with the same brush. There are indeed many who think that Sky are above suspicion. There are others who are willing to look at the wider picture without being blinded by Union Jack sunglasses.

 

[The Hitch]

Yes, but it's not true that Sky aren't being singled out or that they are unique in shouting from the rooftops. For one, Garmin/JV shout it louder and with more moral pretense. I've pointed out before that even Ryder's suspicious 2012 blood values and JV's inadequate response gets barely a mention compared to Sky.

It's not about Sky. It's about Britain's self-loathing. Interesting piece in the Guardian by Jonathan Jones, "The excess is not in alcohol but in Britain's self-loathing" states "a country that pictures itself as broken, boozing, morally sick." Interesting that the British here see exactly this in Wiggins.

Maybe you should read the post you were responding to again. It made completely different posts to the ones you address here.

difference between testimony and opinion?

What jv wrote about wiggins and lance yesterday was a matter of fact statement. He was there he saw it, it happened.

What Jv writes about wiggins being clean is that its his opinion. He wasn't there he didn't see it and he doesn't know 100% if it happened.


That said its all redundant anyway because Jv saying he thinks wiggins is clean was mentioned in this thread. And in this.many other threads

 

[Joachim]

This cracks me up, there are so many very arrogant Brits around and this comes from a Brit.

This is a bit OT, and I don't mean to start a Brit bashing contest, but do you not get the impression that Britain is in something of an identity crisis?

I travel a lot so I get to see quite a few nationalities at work and at home. The Brits seem a bit up *** creek, in fact for at least a decade.

 

[ferryman]

I'm going to hate myself for this..... but let's get away from the Brit/nationalism stuff before it gets out of hand and get back on topic. Cheers.

 

[mastersracer]

Maybe you should read the post you were responding to again. It made completely different posts to the ones you address here.

JV never forgives riders who leave Garmin and can't help calling them out whenever he gets the chance, but his 'BFF' comment is perfectly consistent with what Wiggins states, since Wiggins states he became suspicious of LA on Ventoux, the second last day.

Wiggins was right to leave Garmin. Sky is a much better managed team. Wiggins would never have won a Tour on Garmin. Even still, he managed to win an unimpressive Tour and will likely never win one again. Likely will not win the Giro this year either and is likely ecstatic that Contador announced he won't race it.

 

[martinvickers]

JV never forgives riders who leave Garmin and can't help calling them out whenever he gets the chance, but his 'BFF' comment is perfectly consistent with what Wiggins states, since Wiggins states he became suspicious of LA on Ventoux, the second last day.

Wiggins was right to leave Garmin. Sky is a much better managed team. Wiggins would never have won a Tour on Garmin. Even still, he managed to win an unimpressive Tour and will likely never win one again. Likely will not win the Giro this year either and is likely ecstatic that Contador announced he won't race it.

I think JV was pretty entitled to be ****ed at BW. and i understand their relationship at Garmin was never that 'personable' - but nonetheless, they do seem to respect each other professionally quite highly.

Is Sky better managed. I'm not sure. I know they are better funded - the Chelsea/Mac City/Paris St Germain of road cycling- all money and muscle. That ****es people off, especially those with attachment to the Grand Dames of Cycling, the old fashioned teams.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Quite.

Life probably seems very simple from your armchair with your laptop on your knee. Especially if that is pretty much all you do.

Wiggins rant could have been better phrased, but the sentiment behind it was spot on.

LOL that's pretty darn funny coming from someone who is averaging 14 post per day since he burst upon the scene here.

 

[The Hitch]

JV never forgives riders who leave Garmin and can't help calling them out whenever he gets the chance, but his 'BFF' comment is perfectly consistent with what Wiggins states, since Wiggins states he became suspicious of LA on Ventoux, the second last day.

Wiggins was right to leave Garmin. Sky is a much better managed team. Wiggins would never have won a Tour on Garmin. Even still, he managed to win an unimpressive Tour and will likely never win one again. Likely will not win the Giro this year either and is likely ecstatic that Contador announced he won't race it.

Again. Not a response to what i posted. I dont know why twice now youve quoted my post and argued a totally different subject matter

Lets go over this slowly.

You said that those who put credence in JV's comments about wiggins ignore other Vaughters comments (that he thinks wiggins is clean)

I pointed out that 1 Actually we dont ignore that, since its been an issue covered and adressed many times, and 2 JV's belief that wiggins is clean is far less important than his comments on wiggos friendship with Lance because the former is an opinion, the latter is an observation.

Wiggins would never have won a Tour on Garmin.

Surprised to see you say he wouldnt have won a tour on garmin. Since walshes argument for believing wiggins won clean (what was that about how we all ignore the opinions of those who say they believe in sky ) is that he believes wiggins could have won it on garmin (clean team) and if he could have won it on garmin (clean team) then he could have won it clean on sky.

If you told Walsh that wiggins would not have won the tour on garmin he would become far more suspicious.