Wiggins, Clinic respect?

[JimmyFingers]

Dont see what that has to do with the clinic.

Theres plenty enough against wiggins without having to bring in totally unrelated comments he says into it. I thought a week ban for the hog would give us a restbite from that.

Its just talk from Wiggins anyway. As much as id love to see wiggins try to challenge Froome 100% earned right to a shot at the 2013 Tour, its not going to happen.

Giro for Wiggins. Big media hassle about how hes the defending champion at the start of the Tour for Wiggins. Tour for Froome - with Wiggins in the train.

This 100%, some bravado from Wiggins, gives the team different options, misdirects the opposition. Two narratives, which do their opponents plan for? It's a double-threat from Sky for the tour, one's a bluff perhaps, but if you're BMC or Astana or Garmin or Leopard-Trek you have to prepare for it. It's quality mind-games from the Sky camp really.

Par for the course IMO, and standard fare for football fans after listening to Ferguson and Mourinho mess with people via press statements. People need to stop reading far too much into things and expect some gamemanship from the various teams and contenders. Stop being so precious about it.

 

[The Hitch]

This 100%, some bravado from Wiggins, gives the team different options, misdirects the opposition. Two narratives, which do their opponents plan for? It's a double-threat from Sky for the tour, one's a bluff perhaps, but if you're BMC or Astana or Garmin or Leopard-Trek you have to prepare for it. It's quality mind-games from the Sky camp really.

Par for the course IMO, and standard fare for football fans after listening to Ferguson and Mourinho mess with people via press statements. People need to stop reading far too much into things and expect some gamemanship from the various teams and contenders. Stop being so precious about it.

Well i certainly dont see it as quality mind games. the only person who could in any way be affected by what Wiggins says is Froome.

Absolutely no one else will care. They will do their own preperation and assume wiggins turns up in form. If he does turn up in form, its what they prepared for. If he doesnt, great. But in no way will it affect anyone in BMC, Astana, Garmin or Contador. They will all do their own thing, probably without even paying much attention to the cycling press.

As for narcisinho in your analogy, well like Wiggins he also says stupid things . Only unlike with wiggins, for reasons that i cannot comprehend, the football media romantiscise them as if they were clever.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Well i certainly dont see it as quality mind games. the only person who could in any way be affected by what Wiggins says is Froome.

Absolutely no one else will care. They will do their own preperation and assume wiggins turns up in form. If he does turn up in form, its what they prepared for. If he doesnt, great. But in no way will it affect anyone in BMC, Astana, Garmin or Contador. They will all do their own thing, probably without even paying much attention to the cycling press.

As for narcisinho in your analogy, well like Wiggins he also says stupid things . Only unlike with wiggins, for reasons that i cannot comprehend, the football media romantiscise them as if they were clever.

Well I'll agree to disagree. If you think other teams aiming for the overall in the TdF won't take notice of the fact Wiggins and Froome are contenders in a real sense then that is your perogative. As I said, I'll disagree.

Hypothetically speaking, say Wiggins is in yellow, Contador has gapped the Sky train, Froome leads Wiggins back to AC, catches him and the Froome attacks, what do you do?

Anticipate that team orders remain, the race radio will buzz and Froome will soft-pedal back to the team leader? Or chase down Froome? Who is the biggest danger? It's a tremendous strength to have two overall contenders in the same team. Even better when you hide who is riding for whom.

 

[hfer07]

Well I'll agree to disagree. If you think other teams aiming for the overall in the TdF won't take notice of the fact Wiggins and Froome are contenders in a real sense then that is your perogative. As I said, I'll disagree.

Hypothetically speaking, say Wiggins is in yellow, Contador has gapped the Sky train, Froome leads Wiggins back to AC, catches him and the Froome attacks, what do you do?

Anticipate that team orders remain, the race radio will buzz and Froome will soft-pedal back to the team leader? Or chase down Froome? Who is the biggest danger? It's a tremendous strength to have two overall contenders in the same team. Even better when you hide who is riding for whom.

bottom line:

1) More Mountains than last year
2) less TT Kilometers than last year

Those two factors are indeed leaning the Sky leadership balance for the Tour towards Froome, no matter how much BS is coming out of Wiggo's mouth & the media with the double attempt pretext....

Wiggo= Giro
Froome=Tour.

black & white as in day & night- not What IF....

 

[autologous]

You clearly have a strong antipathy towards the chap, not sure that makes you a good commentator on his actions.

and you clearly have a strong love for the chap, quite sure it makes your hundreds of posts defending him just as useless.

 

[The Hitch]

Well I'll agree to disagree. If you think other teams aiming for the overall in the TdF won't take notice of the fact Wiggins and Froome are contenders in a real sense then that is your perogative.

Hypothetically speaking, say Wiggins is in yellow, Contador has gapped the Sky train, Froome leads Wiggins back to AC, catches him and the Froome attacks, what do you do?

Anticipate that team orders remain, the race radio will buzz and Froome will soft-pedal back to the team leader? Or chase down Froome? Who is the biggest danger? It's a tremendous strength to have two overall contenders in the same team. Even better when you hide who is riding for whom.

I never said they wouldnt take notice of Wiggins. They most definately will.

They wont take notice of what he says however, because though it often appears this way, cyclists werent actually born yesterday

Absolutely no one is going to assume wiggins is weak or strong just because he says so.

If wiiggins is there at the startline he will be seen as a threat until he is at least 5 minutes down on gc. Regardless of what he says.

Thats why the comments are not mind games, or not good ones anyway.


As for your hypothetical scenario, far more important to that is the issue of what rider qualities are . Wiggins is the better tter, Froome is the better climber. Therefore in your analogy Contador is always going to chase down the climber Froome.

The more likely scenario of benefit for a team with 2 leaders, would be if Contador was in a group of 2 with froome and wiggins was 30 seconds down the road. Froome could then say that hes not going to work because his teammate is behind. If they are lucky, wiggins can say to riders in his group that he is not going to work because his teammate is in front.

PS, you taking this down Bailsford?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That's how it has worked for hydraheaded teams for years.

There's only two problems really. If the two riders are too close to one another they may neglect to take advantage of the numbers (see: the Schlecks), and if their egos get in the way it could lead to some sparring, or the one behind chasing the one in front down (see: Simoni and Cunego, Contador and Armstrong).

90% of the time, though, 2 leaders opens up a lot of options as long as the riders have some level of tactical nous. You don't need the USPS tactics if you've got 2 strong leaders, which means the race can be a lot more interesting.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Best case scenario is a Hinault / Lemond duel. Bring it.

 

[The Hitch]

That's how it has worked for hydraheaded teams for years.

There's only two problems really. If the two riders are too close to one another they may neglect to take advantage of the numbers (see: the Schlecks), and if their egos get in the way it could lead to some sparring, or the one behind chasing the one in front down (see: Simoni and Cunego, Contador and Armstrong).

90% of the time, though, 2 leaders opens up a lot of options as long as the riders have some level of tactical nous. You don't need the USPS tactics if you've got 2 strong leaders, which means the race can be a lot more interesting.

Funny thing is, Wiggins said that you do need USPS tactics. I remember it many times - a team can only have 1 leader. If im the leader chris will work for me.

The result being hundreds of july fanboys all overt the interwebs telling me and others that we dont have a clue about cycling because a team can only have 1 leader (some thought it was in the rules). Always finished with - you never saw Armstrong sharing team leadership,

 

[sittingbison]

Fair enough, a fairly concise timeline on Brad's public statements. But it also highlights to me the sheer paucity of material people base this on. Bromance is severely over-stating Brad's relationship with Lance. It's a nice tabloid-style approach and suits your narrative, but it's not as if Brad was running with him with his shirt off on a daily basis like Mcconaughey.

Also if you're looking for consistent statements you're barking up the wrong tree: Bradley strikes me as obtuse, volatile and frequently disinterested when dealing with the press. Clearly he neither enjoys nor is particularly adept at dealing with having a microphone stuck in his face. These aren't well-thought out theories he's coming out with, researched and well-argued like a post-grad dissertation. These are off-the-cuff soundbites, often saying what he thinks people want to hear, other times personal and passionate.

I'm aware the inconsistencies are there, I'm just not sure they bear up to close analysis, and certainly extrapolating them into some argument for some sort of doping association between him and Lance, considering they were riding on different teams, is fanciful. And fanciful is generous.

Theres not a paucity Jimmy, Sir Wiggo is one of the most quoted and written about sportspeople on the planet. As to the bromance, even JV tweeted the other day that Sir Wiggo and Lance were in cahoots far to much for his liking, Lance whispering in his ear during 2009 TdF (to leave Garmin). The pro Lance comments, the book cover pictures used with Lance also in frame - sheesh.

Look, I agree with what you are saying, basically Sir Wiggo is a loose cannon (and a loose lip sinking ship) with the press and micrphones shoved up his nose. And he is not comfortable, look at the ill fated "bone idle lazy" presser where he slammed the mic down and stormed off. That behaviour is inexcusable, and in all pro sports here in Aus would warrant a couple of match ban for bringing the sport into disrepute.

for the rest of you, I have clearly paraphrased his comments to demonstrate a timeline of changed attitudes, they are all extremely well known and discussed at length here and elsewhere, look them up yourself. His comments during USADA included.

I hate dopers and doping doctors - winning TdF by winning ITT by 2 mins is cheating - I love lance - bone idle lazy w@ankers for questioning me - USADA should leave Lance alone - there is no evidence of Lance doping - I never raced him except in 2004 Crit Lance is soooo 90s - Lance is a lying cheating ar$sehole I KNEW Lance is a doper way back in 2009 when I raced him

lol

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

for the rest of you, I have clearly paraphrased his comments to demonstrate a timeline of changed attitudes, they are all extremely well known and discussed at length here and elsewhere, look them up yourself. His comments during USADA included.

I must admit, even if you are paraphrasing, I still do not recall reading anything in the bold below.

2012 - USADA are a disgrace, the witnesses are lyers (sic), Lance is great

So it would be interesting to read exactly what he said with respect to this.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

This place is the master of spin. Whatever Wiggins says gets twisted beyond any recognition.

Let the games begin? Sorta betrays the reason you are here, doesn't it?

Let me put it this way: let the season begin, better?

 

[JimmyFingers]

I never said they wouldnt take notice of Wiggins. They most definately will.

They wont take notice of what he says however, because though it often appears this way, cyclists werent actually born yesterday

Absolutely no one is going to assume wiggins is weak or strong just because he says so.

If wiiggins is there at the startline he will be seen as a threat until he is at least 5 minutes down on gc. Regardless of what he says.

Thats why the comments are not mind games, or not good ones anyway.

Ok you may be right to a point, but it doesn't detract from the validity of Wiggins saying what he's saying, I don't think it will affect Froome much and as patron it is his right to defend his title.

As for your hypothetical scenario, far more important to that is the issue of what rider qualities are . Wiggins is the better tter, Froome is the better climber. Therefore in your analogy Contador is always going to chase down the climber Froome.

The more likely scenario of benefit for a team with 2 leaders, would be if Contador was in a group of 2 with froome and wiggins was 30 seconds down the road. Froome could then say that hes not going to work because his teammate is behind. If they are lucky, wiggins can say to riders in his group that he is not going to work because his teammate is in front.

PS, you taking this down Bailsford?

Agreed in most part. Contador is likely to stick with Froome, but that would leave him open to attack from Wiggins, if Froome is able to draw his teeth. Given the Sky train is likely to keep the pace as high as possible on the early stages of climbs, the danger is the competitors get put repeatedly into the red

 

[JimmyFingers]

Theres not a paucity Jimmy, Sir Wiggo is one of the most quoted and written about sportspeople on the planet.

He may be over the last 12 months but before it not so much, but I appreciate the timeline is accurate, if IMO over-analysed. As for the bromance, again I'd say that is over-stating it, although clearly there was some interaction I'd argue it was pretty limited. Given what a nasty peice of work Lance was, I fail to see why he would be turning around and giving a podium rival aid, whether it be doping advice or career. As for telling him to leave Garmin, I'm guessing JV has been off LA's Christmas card list for a while now.

Isn't there something from Ferrari to LA about 2mm on Ventoux, and thanking him for 'killing' the Garmin rider in 2009? Wiggo and him may have had some chats but friends? No

 

[JimmyFingers]

Let me put it this way: let the season begin, better?

Fair enough, I agree, it is an exciting prospect ahead

 

[SundayRider]

He may be over the last 12 months but before it not so much, but I appreciate the timeline is accurate, if IMO over-analysed. As for the bromance, again I'd say that is over-stating it, although clearly there was some interaction I'd argue it was pretty limited. Given what a nasty peice of work Lance was, I fail to see why he would be turning around and giving a podium rival aid, whether it be doping advice or career. As for telling him to leave Garmin, I'm guessing JV has been off LA's Christmas card list for a while now.

Isn't there something from Ferrari to LA about 2mm on Ventoux, and thanking him for 'killing' the Garmin rider in 2009? Wiggo and him may have had some chats but friends? No

What did LA mean in that email? Thanks for killing Garmin? Did he mean thanks for the advice that lead to me killing Garmin, or something else?

 

[zalacain]

see you next tuesday.

haven't heard that for years!

 

[JimmyFingers]

What did LA mean in that email? Thanks for killing Garmin? Did he mean thanks for the advice that lead to me killing Garmin, or something else?

Well the inference is thanks for 'killing' the Garmin rider i.e. Wiggo, so presumably beating him on a certain climb I think.

Unless it is aimed at JV. Hadn't JV already anonymously grassed him up by this stage? He was one of the unnamed riders alongside Landis? I may be completely off there.

And it was Ferrari saying it I think.

But it does illustrate was Lance was about: winning, and winning at all costs. Supposedly he grassed up Hamilton to the UCI when he beat him in a race, when he was riding on the same team, so this theory of LA and Wiggo being in cahoots during the 2009 Tour I find very hard to even contemplate, given they were fighting for a podium spot and even the overall.

 

[RownhamHill]

for the rest of you, I have clearly paraphrased his comments to demonstrate a timeline of changed attitudes, they are all extremely well known and discussed at length here and elsewhere, look them up yourself. His comments during USADA included.

I hate dopers and doping doctors - winning TdF by winning ITT by 2 mins is cheating - I love lance - bone idle lazy w@ankers for questioning me - USADA should leave Lance alone - there is no evidence of Lance doping - I never raced him except in 2004 Crit Lance is soooo 90s - Lance is a lying cheating ar$sehole I KNEW Lance is a doper way back in 2009 when I raced him

lol

Right. So I'm going to assume that bit about USADA was made up then.

 

[The Hitch]

Well the inference is thanks for 'killing' the Garmin rider i.e. Wiggo, so presumably beating him on a certain climb I think.
l.

Wiggins wasnt a big name going into the 2009 tour. His aim was top 20 and no one thought he could do it. Cvv was the main garmin rider. Cvv was also famously insulted by.lance in 2008 when he came 5th and lance smirked - Christian is a friend and a good rider but 5th at the tour, don't make.me laugh.
So.it.could be Christian who afterall did underperform at the tour (though a bad crash at the giro was the main reason for.it)

 

[Ferminal]

"If CVV made the podium, the dope still works".

 

[Mellow Velo]

Wiggins wasnt a big name going into the 2009 tour. His aim was top 20 and no one thought he could do it. Cvv was the main garmin rider. Cvv was also famously insulted by.lance in 2008 when he came 5th and lance smirked - Christian is a friend and a good rider but 5th at the tour, don't make.me laugh.
So.it.could be Christian who afterall did underperform at the tour (though a bad crash at the giro was the main reason for.it)

CvV was to be the Garmin team leader, but was badly injured at the Giro and not long back.
So, it was decided that he should take up domestique duties.
Still managed to finish 7th.

Could have been his year, but along came that run of bad luck.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Well it's a matter for debate. Wiggins may have not been a big fish at the time but he didn't challenge Lance for that third place spot. The email was sent during the race with Ferrari seemingly giving coded instructions to LA to up his dose for the Mt Ventoux. If there is a date on it we could cross reference with the preceding stages. My reading was he meant Wiggo, but difficult to gauge.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well the inference is thanks for 'killing' the Garmin rider i.e. Wiggo, so presumably beating him on a certain climb I think.

Unless it is aimed at JV. Hadn't JV already anonymously grassed him up by this stage? He was one of the unnamed riders alongside Landis? I may be completely off there.

The Landis things started to go public in May 2010, timed for the Tour of California. Don't think even if he had been putting the wheels in motion before then it'd have been done - to the extent that Lance would have known about it fully at least - by July 2009.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The Landis things started to go public in May 2010, timed for the Tour of California. Don't think even if he had been putting the wheels in motion before then it'd have been done - to the extent that Lance would have known about it fully at least - by July 2009.

Ok I wasn't familiar with the exact timeline, so thank you. I still think beating Wiggo on the road on whatever stage is the most likely inference, but it's very open to interpretation.