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Wiggins' Discusses Lance and Landis

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Mambo95 said:
This is the major problem with riders making their figures publically available. People with no qualifications make judgements about things they don't really understand. They just read on the internet that the values should drop, so if they don't they think they have evidence of doping.

I doubt you have formally studied this stuff. I certainly haven't. So neither of us really know what we're looking at. We don't know what a clean rider's data should look like (taking into account factors such as when in the day the tests were taken, what sort of stages had they been doing).

Admittedly there was one Danish expert who said he 'didn't like the shape of the curve' (an Excel feature), but also said there wasn't enough data and he had looked at any actual numbers. Everyone else said there was nothing unusual.

The expert was Jakob Moerkeberg.

He went on record saying " I have seen no exact values, but the pattern on the graph I have seen does not follow the expected pattern"

Not the sort of statement you would expect to hear from an "expert" Physiologist. It is one you might expect to hear from a relatively inexperienced, recently graduated physiologist though.
WTF use is a graph without the core data?


As you say, publishing blood values and having them interpreted by anyone other than experts on the subject is just asking for trouble.

Transparency is good, provided the data is not open to unqualified interpretation.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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andy1234 said:
The expert was Jakob Moerkeberg.

He went on record saying " I have seen no exact values, but the pattern on the graph I have seen does not follow the expected pattern"

Not the sort of statement you would expect to hear from an "expert" Physiologist. It is one you might expect to hear from a relatively inexperienced, recently graduated physiologist though.
WTF use is a graph without the core data?

Yeah, that's what I meant. He hadn't seen any figures. I left out a 'not' - something I do all too often.
 
Excellent write up of Wiggins 3rd(!!) autobiography and the lies he spews:

And so Wiggins stewed over the comparisons being made between Team Sky and the US Postal Services teams of Lance Armstrong, the way in which they only came out to play a couple of times before the Tour and the way in which they sat at the front all day and drove the pace, like Duracell bunnies on Prozac, never tiring, never showing the strain. And Wiggins formulated a response. And the response Wiggins came up with was Biblical in its nature - an eye for an eye, insult met with insult:

"I say they're just ****ing ****ers. I cannot be doing with people like that. It justifies their own bone-idleness because they can't ever imagine applying themselves to doing anything in their lives. It's easy for them to sit under a pseudonym on Twitter and write that sort of **** rather than get off their arses in their own lives and apply themselves and work hard at something and achieve something. And that's ultimately it. ****s."

Okay, maybe I didn't mean Biblical, maybe I meant infantile.

While the salle de presse may have applauded, Wiggins' outburst hadn't actually solved the problem, silenced the questioning. That took the person ghosting his Guardian Tour diaries, who offered a more eloquent defence. This, of course, is one of the problems with Wiggins' comments on doping: too many have them have been delivered on his behalf by ghost-writers, men like Brendan Gallagher and William Fotheringham who daily report on this sport and can find the words that Wiggins himself seems so unable to find when faced with a microphone.

What can Wiggins say? At this stage it's hard to imagine, the man has contradicted himself - played the game - far too often for anything he says to be believed. Others might want to blame dopers who have used the same defences Wiggins employs, accuse them of creating the circumstances in which fans question what Wiggins says. Me, I blame the man himself: he has played the game too well, too often said what he thinks people want to hear. How are we to know when he is not just mouthing the phrases people want to hear?

According to My Time the secret of Sky and Wiggins' success is neither pill nor potion, but the realisation that training is more important than racing (something the Wiggins who wrote In Pursuit of Glory disagreed with, he then saying "You can never quite replicate the competitiveness of a Tour in training."). Sequestering themselves in Tenerife and putting in harder days training than they would have achieved had they raced is, for Team Sky, this year's version of cadence or extract of cherry oil or iPod pillows.

Reading My Time you might form the opinion that this is something no one had realised before Sky came along, that heretofore Tour champions and would-be champions have been spending the months before the big buckle racing hard when they could have been training harder. As with many of the 'discoveries' that get credited to Sky, this is bunkum. It is the strategy that has been employed by many, including - whisper it quietly - Lance Armstrong. Even before the recent past you can find riders who sequestered themselves for months on end, avoiding races and training training training to win the Tour. According to some cycling historians this is exactly how Ottavio Bottecchia won the 1924 race.

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2012/12/17/3775846/my-time-by-bradley-wiggins
 
Mar 4, 2010
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luckyboy said:
The graphs are all that were released aren't they? Just the off-score and hemoglobin. And only a few values too, not anywhere as detailed as LA's was.

The Captain had Brad's retics as well. They were significantly lower at the 2009 TdF than at previous GT's.
 
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Mambo95 said:
Admittedly there was one Danish expert who said he 'didn't like the shape of the curve' (an Excel feature), but also said there wasn't enough data and he had looked at any actual numbers. Everyone else said there was nothing unusual.

andy1234 said:
The expert was Jakob Moerkeberg.

He went on record saying " I have seen no exact values, but the pattern on the graph I have seen does not follow the expected pattern"

Not the sort of statement you would expect to hear from an "expert" Physiologist. It is one you might expect to hear from a relatively inexperienced, recently graduated physiologist though.
WTF use is a graph without the core data?

As you say, publishing blood values and having them interpreted by anyone other than experts on the subject is just asking for trouble.

Transparency is good, provided the data is not open to unqualified interpretation.

JM thought Brad's Hb peaking in the 3rd week of the TdF was unexpected. Why would you need the exact values to make that call? Just the knowledge that plasma volume is supposed to expand significantly during a GT should be enough. It's not like he labeled Brad a blood doper.

Ashenden obviously shares JM's views, judging by his comments on Floyd's 2006 numbers.

“Going from 15.5 to 16.1 (in hemoglobin) is not that unusual when not competing,” Ashenden said by phone from Australia. “But it is very unusual to see an increase after a hard week of cycling. You'd expect it to be the reverse. You'd expect that to fall in a clean athlete. An increase like this in the midst of the Tour de France would be highly, highly unlikely."

And btw, when did JM say he had not seen any exact values?

AS: Were you able to look at other values from the Tour?

JM: I've only seen Bradley Wiggins' values.

AS: Some have said that Wiggins' values are also suspicious. Do you agree with that?

JM: He hasn't published as many values, but his values are not following a pattern that you would expect from a physiological point of view.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/armstrongs-bio-passport-critic-speaks

Who are "everyone else" who said there was nothing unusual in Brad's profile? JV? Cycling journalists? Who are the experts who commented on Brad's data? And did they - if there were any - by any chance, also defend Armstrong's profile from the same Tour, unlike JM?