Wiggins Discussion thread.

[hmsgenoa]

Froome will be given no room to attack by the other teams - what Sky think about it doesnt really matter.

Asumming he's in form of course. Which as others have said, is a pretty big IF...

Claptrap.

If Froome is at the same level he was at La Vuelta there'll be only a few riders that can stay with him if he decides to attack all out, and they will be GC contenders not cannon fodder.

Of course if we are talking about non-mountain stages then maybe he wouldn't be able to get away and other teams would neutralise him. If he gets over current health issues in time expect him to be put a boot in when the tough stages are getting to their make or break point.

Anyone who saw him come right back round Cobo immediately (in the mountain-top duel of the season) despite having put Cobo to the sword all they way up Pena Carbarga knows that Froome has balls of steel and will be using them again -in a race of meaning- as soon as he has the chance.

Tell me which domestiques you expect to be hauling Froome back after they've been over the Madeleine, Croix de Fer and Mollard?

The only reason he may not reach his potential in the tour is how SKY decide to use him - not what other teams decide. He can be a GC contender and as such will be in the mix as long as he isn't used up in the last hour of every flat stage.

 

[mb2612]

Claptrap.

Tell me which domestiques you expect to be hauling Froome back after they've been over the Madeleine, Croix de Fer and Mollard?

When has Froome gone well over 3 climbs?

 

[gatete]

Claptrap.

If Froome is at the same level he was at La Vuelta there'll be only a few riders that can stay with him if he decides to attack all out, and they will be GC contenders not cannon fodder.

Of course if we are talking about non-mountain stages then maybe he wouldn't be able to get away and other teams would neutralise him. If he gets over current health issues in time expect him to be put a boot in when the tough stages are getting to their make or break point.

Anyone who saw him come right back round Cobo immediately (in the mountain-top duel of the season) despite having put Cobo to the sword all they way up Pena Carbarga knows that Froome has balls of steel and will be using them again -in a race of meaning- as soon as he has the chance.

Tell me which domestiques you expect to be hauling Froome back after they've been over the Madeleine, Croix de Fer and Mollard?

The only reason he may not reach his potential in the tour is how SKY decide to use him - not what other teams decide. He can be a GC contender and as such will be in the mix as long as he isn't used up in the last hour of every flat stage.

For some reason I think Froome is going to pull an Alberto 2007 type of thing

 

[Parrulo]

For some reason I think Froome is going to pull an Alberto 2007 type of thing

cept contador was 24 at the time not 27

and you guys overhype froome way too much, his vuelta performance was good but like i said many times it wouldn't have been nearly as good if nibali, anton and scarponi where in top shape as he would be fighting for a top 5 position and not the win.

btw doing well on the vuelta typical flat stage with 1 climb at the end is far from making you a great climber, first one needs to show it on the big several HC climbs stages.

 

[Winterfold]

Er - Frank Schleck?

Call me cynical but I will be amazed if Froome repeats a performance like the Vuelta Stage he won.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

When has Froome gone well over 3 climbs?

Covatilla, Farrapona and Peña Cabarga.

You never specified they had to be in the same stage!

Also, on a couple of stages (Anglirú and Farrapona) he was actually dropped or struggling on penultimate climbs (Cordal and San Lorenzo, both of which are pretty nasty and steep) only to come back and have good strength left in reserve. Long, multiple climb stages might be a problem for him, but it also shows that he actually got stronger as the stages went on, so multiple climbs might work well for him.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Anyone who saw him come right back round Cobo immediately (in the mountain-top duel of the season) despite having put Cobo to the sword all they way up Pena Carbarga knows that Froome has balls of steel and will be using them again -in a race of meaning- as soon as he has the chance.

I was actually up on Peña Cabarga that day, about 4-500m from the summit. On the way down we went past Santiago Pérez, who was following the race around as it went past his home area of Asturias and into Cantabria, and I asked him what he'd made of Froome's performance. He said that he was impressed by Froome, surprised we hadn't heard much of him before that, and that he personally would never have had the cojones to put in a performance like that, that would look so outwardly suspicious.
note - all but the first sentence of the above may not bear resemblance to fact

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

cept contador was 24 at the time not 27

and you guys overhype froome way too much, his vuelta performance was good but like i said many times it wouldn't have been nearly as good if nibali, anton and scarponi where in top shape as he would be fighting for a top 5 position and not the win.

btw doing well on the vuelta typical flat stage with 1 climb at the end is far from making you a great climber, first one needs to show it on the big several HC climbs stages.

Plus Cobo was still vastly superior on the Angliru

 

[movingtarget]

Er - Frank Schleck?

Call me cynical but I will be amazed if Froome repeats a performance like the Vuelta Stage he won.

Won't it be his job to stay with Wiggo ? He won't get any freedom unless Wiggo cracks or pulls out of the race. Same for Porte.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Note: I do expect a lot from Froome. But some people really are overhyping him.

I mean, guys like Mosquera and Nozal got 2nd in the Vuelta as well. But they weren't anglo-saxons

 

[hmsgenoa]

I was actually up on Peña Cabarga that day, about 4-500m from the summit. On the way down we went past Santiago Pérez, who was following the race around as it went past his home area of Asturias and into Cantabria, and I asked him what he'd made of Froome's performance. He said that he was impressed by Froome, surprised we hadn't heard much of him before that, and that he personally would never have had the cojones to put in a performance like that, that would look so outwardly suspicious.
note - all but the first sentence of the above may not bear resemblance to fact

Not really too clear on eaxctly whose side you come down on except with the pale blue note and the inference by Perez, it looks as though you find the performance suspicious.

I take the point others make re number of climbs on TDF stage to La Toussuire, but we shall see shan't we?

Regarding the possibility of him needing balls to put in a performance like that, (on the basis that you'd need to be brave to put on a display like that and not come under suspicion), I'm as cynical as the next man. Except to say that, to me, it looked like sheer determination that got him back round Cobo. You were there, did it all look effortless (in an effortless Pantani/Riis bald as a coot kind of way)?

 

[gatete]

cept contador was 24 at the time not 27

and you guys overhype froome way too much, his vuelta performance was good but like i said many times it wouldn't have been nearly as good if nibali, anton and scarponi where in top shape as he would be fighting for a top 5 position and not the win.

btw doing well on the vuelta typical flat stage with 1 climb at the end is far from making you a great climber, first one needs to show it on the big several HC climbs stages.

You're absolutely right, what I meant is that like Contador he completely dismissed bottle in that Tour, just like Froome might do in this coming Tour

 

[movingtarget]

Note: I do expect a lot from Froome. But some people really are overhyping him.

I mean, guys like Mosquera and Nozal got 2nd in the Vuelta as well. But they weren't anglo-saxons

I suppose it's because before the Vuelta know one knew Froome could ride like that. I am in two minds about him. The Vuelta form was a bit hard to judge as well. Menchov, Rodriguez, Nibali and Anton out of form, Wiggins and VDB returning from injury. The TDF is a much more intense race from stage one.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Yup and the level is a lot higher.

In terms of level Tour > Giro > Vuelta

 

[The Hitch]

Note: I do expect a lot from Froome. But some people really are overhyping him.

I mean, guys like Mosquera and Nozal got 2nd in the Vuelta as well. But they weren't anglo-saxons

Well there are a few points to make here.

First of all is the fact that whereas froome oficially podiumed, he was easily the best guy in the race. He spent 90% of the contested part of the race doing tempo for Wiggins and ended up in 2nd despite doing all this work.

The second point is the tt. Mosquera is a great climber but can't tt so while some of us were hoping to see him in the Tour crushing it in mountain stages, we knew he could never contend. Froome we saw can tt.

Thirdly Mosquera had shown his top form before and we know its not enough.. In fact he was a favourite for the race based purely on the fact that the guys who had beaten him in previous editions were gone. Weve seen Mosquera face up to Evans Basso Contador, Valverde and he doesnt have it.

I can't really comment on Nozal because he was before my time.

 

[movingtarget]

Well there are a few points to make here.

First of all is the fact that whereas froome oficially podiumed, he was easily the best guy in the race. He spent 90% of the contested part of the race doing tempo for Wiggins and ended up in 2nd despite doing all this work.

The second point is the tt. Mosquera is a great climber but can't tt so while some of us were hoping to see him in the Tour crushing it in mountain stages, we knew he could never contend. Froome we saw can tt.

Thirdly Mosquera had shown his top form before and we know its not enough.. In fact he was a favourite for the race based purely on the fact that the guys who had beaten him in previous editions were gone. Weve seen Mosquera face up to Evans Basso Contador, Valverde and he doesnt have it.

I can't really comment on Nozal because he was before my time.

There is no doubt it was a great ride by Froome and without the work he did for Wiggins he would have won the Vuelta. It will be interesting to see how Froome and Porte handle the TDF this year.

 

[airstream]

froome is the most legitimate overhyping if i may say so. like it or lump it on the vuelta he showed more talents than wiggins did over his entire career on road. Froome is an absolutely surrealistic climber. Just imagine what will happen if he flies like on Pena Cabarga. Wiggo starts as a nominal leader certainly but I guess they are on an equal footing actually.

 

[spalco]

Note: I do expect a lot from Froome. But some people really are overhyping him.

I mean, guys like Mosquera and Nozal got 2nd in the Vuelta as well. But they weren't anglo-saxons

No offense, but with the possible exception of Ryo, you are the last person on this forum who has any right to talk about "overhyping" anyone, especially if you bring in nationalism on top of that. When's the last time any one of your beloved Dutchies got on the podium of a GT?

 

[Swifty's Cakes]

Won't it be his job to stay with Wiggo ? He won't get any freedom unless Wiggo cracks or pulls out of the race. Same for Porte.

That was my original point. I dont think Froome is a realistic CG contender, but he could do more in the race than just ride to protect Wiggins. A brave Sky DS would have him attack and try to force the other teams to ride.

Maybe I've been reading Slaying the Badger a bit too much. All that talk from Hinault of shaking up the race has got to me.

 

[hrotha]

As of right now, Froome is a one-hit wonder. I'd wait to see him recreate that Vuelta form in any race before talking about his chances at the Tour (chances of being a contender, or even of being a good domestique).

 

[hatcher]

As of right now, Froome is a one-hit wonder. I'd wait to see him recreate that Vuelta form in any race before talking about his chances at the Tour (chances of being a contender, or even of being a good domestique).

What have you got against the Tour of Beijing?

You're right though. They way his 2012 season has started (missing big races, hitting pedestrians), it has the feel of a wasted season coming up. Maybe it will all come back together at the 2012 Vuelta for him.

 

[airstream]

I'm afraid we will see a real Froome only in GT's. He's a GC man kind of Schleck and Menchov. They almost always stay in a trench.

 

[hrotha]

What have you got against the Tour of Beijing?

You're right though. They way his 2012 season has started (missing big races, hitting pedestrians), it has the feel of a wasted season coming up. Maybe it will all come back together at the 2012 Vuelta for him.

Even if the Tour of Beijing wasn't a complete joke, that performance was still part of his Vuelta form. Pecharromán destroyed the field in several races that were close in the calendar too.

 

[movingtarget]

That was my original point. I dont think Froome is a realistic CG contender, but he could do more in the race than just ride to protect Wiggins. A brave Sky DS would have him attack and try to force the other teams to ride.

Maybe I've been reading Slaying the Badger a bit too much. All that talk from Hinault of shaking up the race has got to me.

I don't think Sky will do that as they risk dropping Wiggins who likes a hard steady pace like Evans. When riders like Schleck and Contador make the stop start attacks that is when Evans, Menchov and Wiggins start to struggle. As we saw in last year's TDF, the Schlecks played into Evans hands by making short attacks and stopping except for Galibier of course. When Contador is at his best he makes sustained attacks until he shatters the group by then the diesel type riders have lost their rhythm and start to struggle. That is what Andy Schleck has to do to win the TDF this year. The only other way is to use his riders as hares and attack from a long way out and draw out other riders forcing them to respond. Sky has looked good in the shorter stage races so far but will they handle it in July ? Maybe Sky won't get Froome to do too much work for Wiggins early in the race just in case they have to revert to plan B. I thought Froome was very impressive in the Vuelta but I did not think the the other GC contenders were, except for Cobo of course. It's one thing winning Paris Nice but it's a lot harder to fight off riders like Evans and Menchov in a grand tour even if the TTs make the race more suitable.

 

[spalco]

^^
I agree with you, but regarding Froome's/Wiggins' competition in the Vuelta - you can only look good or bad compared to the other riders. Contador made everybody look like insolent boys in last year's Giro, but that doesn't mean Scarponi and Nibali are bad riders or even that they weren't in form.