Wiggins Discussion thread.

[Froome19]

I'm afraid we will see a real Froome only in GT's. He's a GC man kind of Schleck and Menchov. They almost always stay in a trench.

Aah no he is not

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

No offense, but with the possible exception of Ryo, you are the last person on this forum who has any right to talk about "overhyping" anyone, especially if you bring in nationalism on top of that. When's the last time any one of your beloved Dutchies got on the podium of a GT?

And this is were you are wrong. I do talk a lot about the Dutchies but I never predict Tour wins or podiums for them. I just hope they do, but I never state I expect them there.

So I'm sorry to say, your argument is invalid.

I usually hope they do something here and name them in threads where they aren't named. But I estimate their chances realistically..

 

[richtea]

Wilco kelderman is the next eddy merckx

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

How obvious of a joke are those threads? If you really don't get that kind of humor and take such an obvious joke seriously, then I pity you.

 

[The Hitch]

And this is were you are wrong. I do talk a lot about the Dutchies but I never predict Tour wins or podiums for them. I just hope they do, but I never state I expect them there.

So I'm sorry to say, your argument is invalid.

I usually hope they do something here and name them in threads where they aren't named. But I estimate their chances realistically..

You put an avatar bet that Robert gesink would podium the tour and beat Evans by at least 3 minutes. now while you may have been saved by gesink fall would you not agree that you may have been over rating him a little bit ?

 

[Arnout]

* hides, very quickly *

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

You put an avatar bet that Robert gesink would podium the tour and beat Evans by at least 3 minutes. now while you may have been saved by gesink fall would you not agree that you may have been over rating him a little bit ?

No. I stand by that. I still believe that. Gesink is the only one I really believe in he can do that.
Not Mollema or Poels etc, they all lack the raw class Gesink has shown.
I do have given up on the fact that Gesink can even get through a Tour de France without falling though. I realised that after last year. So maybe its never going to happen (unless he avoids a fall, but that is unlikely to ever happen)
It's easy to forget how good Gesink really is at his best when having a horrid year such as last year. You surely seem to have forgotten.

Besides, that is not different from Evans fans wanting Evans to win where you, me and many others said it was never going to happen. And Evans did won the Tour after all. So don't write him off. Thank you

 

[ferryman]

You put an avatar bet that Robert gesink would podium the tour and beat Evans by at least 3 minutes. now while you may have been saved by gesink fall would you not agree that you may have been over rating him a little bit ?

Gesink, is what, 26 and despite rotten luck due to falls/injuries has a great palmares. Making his initial mark in the Tour de L'Aviner as all good youngsters should. And you can track his career since then as he progressed and was visible in results in a lot of races where you would expect a climber to show in.
He has also been a genuine GC guy for a few years now. Overrated, I don't think so. Unlucky, yes.

And then there is Froome and his sudden dominance at a GC aged 27 with nothing behind it to suggest that this is remotely likely. I wonder how many of those who are totally over hyping him would be doing so if he wasn't notionally English and/or riding for Sky.

 

[ferryman]

No offense, but with the possible exception of Ryo, you are the last person on this forum who has any right to talk about "overhyping" anyone, especially if you bring in nationalism on top of that. When's the last time any one of your beloved Dutchies got on the podium of a GT?

Well that's certainly put those under achieving 'Dutchies' firmly in their place.

 

[Parrulo]

Gesink, is what, 26 and despite rotten luck due to falls/injuries has a great palmares. Making his initial mark in the Tour de L'Aviner as all good youngsters should. And you can track his career since then as he progressed and was visible in results in a lot of races where you would expect a climber to show in.
He has also been a genuine GC guy for a few years now. Overrated, I don't think so. Unlucky, yes.

And then there is Froome and his sudden dominance at a GC aged 27 with nothing behind it to suggest that this is remotely likely. I wonder how many of those who are totally over hyping him would be doing so if he wasn't notionally English and/or riding for Sky.

sorry what dominance? last time i checked you had to win a race by a fair margin to dominate it

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Gesink, is what, 26 and despite rotten luck due to falls/injuries has a great palmares. Making his initial mark in the Tour de L'Aviner as all good youngsters should. And you can track his career since then as he progressed and was visible in results in a lot of races where you would expect a climber to show in.
He has also been a genuine GC guy for a few years now. Overrated, I don't think so. Unlucky, yes.

And then there is Froome and his sudden dominance at a GC aged 27 with nothing behind it to suggest that this is remotely likely. I wonder how many of those who are totally over hyping him would be doing so if he wasn't notionally English and/or riding for Sky.

Excellent point.

Well, the Hitch and co? Care to reply?

 

[spalco]

Well that's certainly put those under achieving 'Dutchies' firmly in their place.

I have absolutely nothing against Dutch cyclists or the Dutch people, I just thought it's more than a little bit hypocritical of Dekker_Tifosi to complain about this, when he's basically the poster boy in this forum of hyping certain cyclists based on nothing but their nationality.
Which I'm ok with too, to be clear, he's putting himself out there and is passionate, but if you're doing that than don't look down on other people rooting for cyclists with little to show for.

I especially took exception at his "anglo-saxon" comment. For starters I'm neither Anglo nor Saxon, and I do like Froome and would like him just as much if he were an Uzbek. I like his story, I like him as a person, and I can't wait to see what he can do in his next GT. And this has nothing to with his passport or the jersey he wears.

 

[hatcher]

This place is getting ridiculous with the constant "it's only because he's British/Sky/Anglo" nonsense. It's so lazy.

Froome was impressive in the Vuelta. He would have been just as impressive had he been Dutch, Spanish, or Kenyan. I wonder if he had been would the Dutch, Spanish, or Kenyan posters be more excited by him. Hmm tricky.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I have absolutely nothing against Dutch cyclists or the Dutch people, I just thought it's more than a little bit hypocritical of Dekker_Tifosi to complain about this, when he's basically the poster boy in this forum of hyping certain cyclists based on nothing but their nationality.
Which I'm ok with too, to be clear, he's putting himself out there and is passionate, but if you're doing that than don't look down on other people rooting for cyclists with little to show for.

I especially took exception at his "anglo-saxon" comment. For starters I'm neither Anglo nor Saxon, and I do like Froome and would like him just as much if he were an Uzbek. I like his story, I like him as a person, and I can't wait to see what he can do in his next GT. And this has nothing to with his passport or the jersey he wears.

The problem is with you people, not seeing the difference between serious hype and a 100% obvious joke (Kelderman, TGBM threads...).

I mean how can you not see it. The over-the-top topic titles are a dead give away. Those topics were even created as an obvious trolling response to people who really hype their riders and who actually believe it themselves.

I guess I overestimated your collective intelligence if more people took it as serious as you do.

 

[spalco]

That's a cop out. You might be kidding some of the time, but you're clearly not kidding much of the time. And it's all based on nationality with you, every time.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Not really too clear on eaxctly whose side you come down on except with the pale blue note and the inference by Perez, it looks as though you find the performance suspicious.

I take the point others make re number of climbs on TDF stage to La Toussuire, but we shall see shan't we?

Regarding the possibility of him needing balls to put in a performance like that, (on the basis that you'd need to be brave to put on a display like that and not come under suspicion), I'm as cynical as the next man. Except to say that, to me, it looked like sheer determination that got him back round Cobo. You were there, did it all look effortless (in an effortless Pantani/Riis bald as a coot kind of way)?

I found the performance suspicious as all hell. That's why I alluded to Santi Pérez.

That in itself isn't so bad - there can be no denying that Peña Cabarga was incredibly entertaining, and it's not like I haven't enjoyed stupidly doped up performances in the past. I cheered Emanuele Sella all the way round the Dolomites in 2008, and still wait reverently for the Volta a Portugal every year. But it was all these threads, posts and arguments about the clean Froome being screwed by the dirty Cobo that got to me. Cobo was shady as all hell in that race, most people came down agreeing with that. And yet he still finished the race slower than a guy who had shown almost nothing whatsoever in his career, who had been being asked to play domestique even when leading the GC, and who people were trying to convince me was clean? That's how my sarcastic "Super-Froome" character that I developed (many posts about how if he continues his rate of improvement, he will win every single race in the season, except the Scheldeprijs because that's beneath him), which goes along with several other running themes in my posts (eg "the Scheldeprijs is the worst race in the history of cycling" or posting "Marianne Vos" in every single "best cyclist of the year/month/decade/season" thread), came about, and is something entirely separate from Chris Froome the person, who by all accounts is a nice guy who dealt very well with some occasionally vitriolic treatment.

Yes, I was up on Peña Cabarga, the point where I was stood was before Cobo caught Froome. From where I was neither of them looked comfortable, but Cobo looked less comfortable. Both guys were clearly shattered and leaving it all on the road, however. Cobo looked more gone facially, but Froome's technique was seemingly going astray at that point, so you could say that the visual signs balance out at least.

On the other hand, Cobo had the benefit of a climb full of his fans - after all, he's Cantabrian, and the road was smothered in painted Cobo signs. Here's a picture of Cobo with one of his most dedicated fans:

For the record, it was 35º that day and that guy rode the whole climb in that outfit in the early afternoon sun.

 

[roundabout]

You should have asked Santi whether the rumors are true and he now has more time to follow the races

A long shot, I know

 

[hrotha]

That's a cop out. You might be kidding some of the time, but you're clearly not kidding much of the time. And it's all based on nationality with you, every time.

For what it's worth, I don't think DT hypes Dutch riders because of their nationality. He certainly supports them, and personally I find it rather tedious, but there's a difference between talking about a rider and trying to convince people that he can achieve unreasonable success.

Gesink being a contender for the podium was not hype - he was widely believed to be a contender. Most people liked his chances a lot better in late 2010 than by mid 2011, but nevertheless Gesink had earned that status on the road.

 

[webvan]

You should have asked Santi whether the rumors are true and he now has more time to follow the races

A long shot, I know

Yeah, what's Santi up to these days, why did he never come back ? What rumours ?

 

[jens_attacks]

You should have asked Santi whether the rumors are true and he now has more time to follow the races

A long shot, I know

unfortunately i think they are.
tino i think quit too because of that.we'll never know though.

 

[Duartista]

What rumours? Something to do with those test results that were forgotten about for a year or so?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yeah, what's Santi up to these days, why did he never come back ? What rumours ?

Santi did come back, he's been racing in Portugal for the last few years, with Madeinox, then Loulé and finally Barbot. He usually based his season around his home race (Asturias) and its surrounding one-day races - he's won the Subida al Naranco and GP Llodio in the last 2 years and come close to the Vuelta a La Rioja.

However, his returns have been dwindling; he's never been a factor at the Volta - didn't even ride it in 2011 - and he doesn't have a team for 2012. It appears he's done.

 

[hmsgenoa]

I found the performance suspicious as all hell. That's why I alluded to Santi Pérez.

That in itself isn't so bad - there can be no denying that Peña Cabarga was incredibly entertaining, and it's not like I haven't enjoyed stupidly doped up performances in the past. I cheered Emanuele Sella all the way round the Dolomites in 2008, and still wait reverently for the Volta a Portugal every year. But it was all these threads, posts and arguments about the clean Froome being screwed by the dirty Cobo that got to me. Cobo was shady as all hell in that race, most people came down agreeing with that. And yet he still finished the race slower than a guy who had shown almost nothing whatsoever in his career, who had been being asked to play domestique even when leading the GC, and who people were trying to convince me was clean? That's how my sarcastic "Super-Froome" character that I developed (many posts about how if he continues his rate of improvement, he will win every single race in the season, except the Scheldeprijs because that's beneath him), which goes along with several other running themes in my posts (eg "the Scheldeprijs is the worst race in the history of cycling" or posting "Marianne Vos" in every single "best cyclist of the year/month/decade/season" thread), came about, and is something entirely separate from Chris Froome the person, who by all accounts is a nice guy who dealt very well with some occasionally vitriolic treatment.

Yes, I was up on Peña Cabarga, the point where I was stood was before Cobo caught Froome. From where I was neither of them looked comfortable, but Cobo looked less comfortable. Both guys were clearly shattered and leaving it all on the road, however. Cobo looked more gone facially, but Froome's technique was seemingly going astray at that point, so you could say that the visual signs balance out at least.

On the other hand, Cobo had the benefit of a climb full of his fans - after all, he's Cantabrian, and the road was smothered in painted Cobo signs. Here's a picture of Cobo with one of his most dedicated fans:

For the record, it was 35º that day and that guy rode the whole climb in that outfit in the early afternoon sun.

Its nice to see comments from someone who actually gets out to the races. I'm as cynical as the next man when it comes to the negative aspects of the sport. I still like to believe occasionally though and my impression of Froome is of a rider inspired by where he found himself and finding extra reserves - in himself - as a result.

To me it smacked of someone emptying themselves of everything to win, not the big ring for 75% of Alpe D'huez with absolute deft control and precision over the handling of the bike & leaving a former King Of The Mountains in the wake (who'd doped themselves!) type of effort.

If we leave the doping theories aside for a moment, if you found yourself leading GC having pulled your finger out in the TT wouldn't you be inspired to perform and put yourself in an unassailable position?

Sometimes just the fact that you find yourself in a position in a race you did not expect to be (ie 1st) is enough to light the blue touch paper and realise further potential within you.

Of course whether its been by blood doping or artificial substances boosting performance, we've all seen a bit too much of that kind of thing. But doesn't it tell us something that non-established riders find themselves challenging for the lead of these races now - not the heads of state you might expect? We can hope.

Good to see your picture, that Guy will end up looking like Cob's twin if he keeps riding in all that gear!

See you on The Col du Grand Colombier and Glandon & La Toussuirre? (I'm looking at a route that splits from the descent of The Croix de Fer and at La Chal heads for La Toussuire via Cret de Pralud. Think its an unmade road and a very steep 3 or four kilometres so will take MTB. But if gendarmes allow then hoping to watch at top of Glandon then make haste and try and see the finish).

BTW way hoping one way or another its a British tour winner, and feel its Wiggins year - back on topic. Just hope Sky leave Cav to fend for himself sometimes instead of using their resources too early - he can manage.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Oh, I didn't take that photo. I've got a lot of photos from the day, but that's not one of them. We had to hurry back down the mountain to board a bus to Bilbao ready for the next few days. I'm not going to be at the Tour this year, always find it a bit too much of a scrum, not as nice an environment as a lot of smaller races. I'll probably be on Arrate, either in Barakaldo or on Valdezcaray, and in Logroño though.

 

[Ripper]

Hey - this is the Wiggins appreciation thread.

So, back on track ...

I appreciate that Wiggins has given anorexics everywhere the hope to race bikes (he is really beginning to look a bit scary)