Wiggins Discussion thread.

[Carols]

it has nothing to do with "balls" but team orders. Bar those and his flat tire, he would have won by at least 2 minutes, maybe 3.

You're talking as if the guy had a choice. He didn't. He was held back. He was not allowed to express his potential, which would have dropped wiggins on more than one occasion in the mountains, even these dreadful mountains, to say nothing of serious mountains.

Froome was simply the best man in this race, but was not permitted to be so because it was much better for sky during this london olympic year to have wiggins in yellow. Business won, the tour lost.

+10000000000

 

[webvan]

No I'm not kidding. There have been serious mountains in this TdF. Maybe not as many as last year but there have been 3 big mountain stages. What makes you think that Sky would change tactics on a hypothetical 4th or 5th mountainstage? Look at the GC for the top ten riders based on stage 7, 8, 11, 16 and 17:

Christopher Froome (GBr) Sky Procycling 00:00:00
Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Sky Procycling 00:00:04
Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 00:00:27
Pierre Rolland (Fra) Team Europcar 00:02:36
Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Lotto Belisol Team 00:02:59
Thibaut Pinot (Fra) FDJ-Big Mat 00:03:53
Janez Brajkovic (Slo) Astana Pro Team 00:06:18
Tejay Van Garderen (USA) BMC Racing Team 00:07:08
Haimar Zubeldia Agirre (Spa) RadioShack-Nissan 00:07:38
Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 00:08:08

Who is it that miraculously would have been become better than Sky? Wiggins and Froome have bested the other contenders in basically any type of mountain stage that the TdF has on offer.

Very interesting, thanks for putting that together, says it all doesn't it.

 

[rhubroma]

No I'm not kidding. There have been serious mountains in this TdF. Maybe not as many as last year but there have been 3 big mountain stages. What makes you think that Sky would change tactics on a hypothetical 4th or 5th mountainstage? Look at the GC for the top ten riders based on stage 7, 8, 11, 16 and 17:

Christopher Froome (GBr) Sky Procycling 00:00:00
Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Sky Procycling 00:00:04
Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 00:00:27
Pierre Rolland (Fra) Team Europcar 00:02:36
Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Lotto Belisol Team 00:02:59
Thibaut Pinot (Fra) FDJ-Big Mat 00:03:53
Janez Brajkovic (Slo) Astana Pro Team 00:06:18
Tejay Van Garderen (USA) BMC Racing Team 00:07:08
Haimar Zubeldia Agirre (Spa) RadioShack-Nissan 00:07:38
Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 00:08:08

Who is it that miraculously would have been become better than Sky? Wiggins and Froome have bested the other contenders in basically any type of mountain stage that the TdF has on offer.

If you contend that the mountains of this Tour were serious mountains, then you only make yourself look foolish. These mountains were neither really hard, nor well placed throughout the course. That they weren't really hard is evident to anyone who knows the climbs of France. That they were badly placed is demonstrated by the fact that we only got 2 MTF and there was a Pyrenean stage, so called, with the last of just 2 climbs 40 k out from the finish, while too many other stages finishing at the bottom of descents.

I never said there were others miraculously better than Wiggins, but that Froome was. At any rate with better mountains the probability that Wiggins would have cracked increases. As this course was designed for him and Froome was held back, that wasn't the case.

 

[Magnus]

If you contend that the mountains of this Tour were serious mountains, then you only make yourself look foolish.

Well, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

These mountains were neither really hard, nor well placed throughout the course. That they weren't really hard is evident to anyone who knows the climbs of France.

I know the climbs of France and it is not evident to me that they are not really hard. The French magazine Cyclo Passion had a '10 hardest climbs in France' article in their April Issue. Two of those climbs was in this year's TdF. Zero of them was in last year's.
What climbs are you missing?

That they were badly placed is demonstrated by the fact that we only got 2 MTF

But what was the result of these 2 mtf?
Plus there was the Planche des Belles Filles which shouldn't suit Wiggins at all.

and there was a Pyrenean stage, so called, with the last of just 2 climbs 40 k out from the finish,

That one stage could have been designed better, but judging by how this and other stages was raced I don't think it would have changed anything.

while too many other stages finishing at the bottom of descents.

If anything a descent finish should be an advantage to Nibali, not Wiggins.

 

[rhubroma]

Well, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I know the climbs of France and it is not evident to me that they are not really hard. The French magazine Cyclo Passion had a '10 hardest climbs in France' article in their April Issue. Two of those climbs was in this year's TdF. Zero of them was in last year's.
What climbs are you missing?


But what was the result of these 2 mtf?
Plus there was the Planche des Belles Filles which shouldn't suit Wiggins at all.

That one stage could have been designed better, but judging by how this and other stages was raced I don't think it would have changed anything.

If anything a descent finish should be an advantage to Nibali, not Wiggins.

Come on, Magnus, this was a Tour lite in the mountains department. Not that there weren't any, but too many cat. 1 and 2 climbs, not enough HC ones and not enough MTF (while on that Pyrenean stage terribly placed).

Descents make a difference only when they are really treacherous. Not enough of those for Nibali to really have had an advantage.

You are reaching here to demonstrate something nobody, probably not even yourself, believes. At any rate Froome deserved to win this Tour.

 

[Magnus]

Come on, Magnus, this was a Tour lite in the mountains department. Not that there weren't any, but too many cat. 1 and 2 climbs, not enough HC ones and not enough MTF (while on that Pyrenean stage terribly placed).

Yes this was somewhat lite tour mountain wise. At least when where talking about the big mountains (Alps and Pyrenees). Normally I would expect two GC stages in the Alps and two in the Pyrenees, where this year it has been one and two. On the other hand the medium mountain stages have been more GC relevant than usual. Personally I'm a bit disappointed that there wasn't any high altitude (2500m+) climbs, but pleasantly surprised by the inclusion of Planches des Belles Filles, Gd Colombier, Col de Peguere and the Porrentruy stage.

You are reaching here to demonstrate something nobody, probably not even yourself, believes.

I'm saying that I can't find any empirical circumstances in this TdF that suggests anybody outside the Sky team is stronger than Wiggins in the mountains.

 

[rhubroma]

I'm saying that I can't find any empirical circumstances in this TdF that suggests anybody outside the Sky team is stronger than Wiggins in the mountains.

Not having said anything to the contrary, your point is moot.

I think it's safe to say, however, that with better selected ascents, better placement of climbs and 1 or 2 MTF more, we'd have had a much more entertaining race to watch and perhaps Wiggins would have even experienced a day "no." While it certainly would have been more difficult for Sky to hold Froome back, the strongfest rider in this year's race.

 

[Magnus]

Not having said anything to the contrary, your point is moot.

I think it's safe to say, however, that with better selected ascents, better placement of climbs and 1 or 2 MTF more, we'd have had a much more entertaining race to watch

And the excitement would have been the non existent riders that are able to drop Wiggins in the mountains?

 

[Panda Claws]

I agree with Magnus, there are no signs that point to anyone apart from Froome being stronger than Wiggins in the mountains in this years Tour.

And even with Froome we cannot be 100% sure, although it seems that way.

 

[Wiggins_Sideburn]

The lad has done well.

 

[webvan]

I agree with Magnus, there are no signs that point to anyone apart from Froome being stronger than Wiggins in the mountains in this years Tour.

And even with Froome we cannot be 100% sure, although it seems that way.

Quite right, Froome has this incredible "kick" but who's to say he could build and sustain a 30+ second lead for 2 or 3 km over a "tempo" rider like Wiggo, he certainly wasn't able to do it last year at the Vuelta when the victory was at the end of the last climb, he quickly got 100 meters on Cobo, got caught, and then kicked again to win but only for the bonus seconds.

It will be very interesting to see what he does in the Vuelta with hopefully his form intact, which might be the case since he really started racing at the Dauphine, as Wiggo pointed out the other day.

The best part of Wiggo's win is his incredible 2012 winning streak, PN,ToR, CD, TDF! Not sure anyone ever did that, but seeing a guy being competitive over (almost) the whole season is impressive and is a refreshing break from the Lemond "doctrine".

 

[Panda Claws]

This guy could actually end up with around 2500 CQ points if he goes well at the Olympics ITT and perhaps even at the Worlds ITT.

 

[straydog]

Quite right, Froome has this incredible "kick" but who's to say he could build and sustain a 30+ second lead for 2 or 3 km over a "tempo" rider like Wiggo, he certainly wasn't able to do it last year at the Vuelta when the victory was at the end of the last climb, he quickly got 100 meters on Cobo, got caught, and then kicked again to win but only for the bonus seconds.

It will be very interesting to see what he does in the Vuelta with hopefully his form intact, which might be the case since he really started racing at the Dauphine, as Wiggo pointed out the other day.

The best part of Wiggo's win is his incredible 2012 winning streak, PN,ToR, CD, TDF! Not sure anyone ever did that, but seeing a guy being competitive over (almost) the whole season is impressive and is a refreshing nice break from the Lemond "doctrine".

I finally see the folly of my ways....thank you for this thread....why oh why do I ever go near the clinic?

So I agree with the above post generally. Think Wiggins has had an extraordinary year. And I think it might be added to at the Olympics. As for Froome....hmm think he may have p*ssed on his chips with Sky with his little display today. I don't think it proved anything. Merely that on steeper sections he can accelerate quicker than Wiggins. Not necessarily sustain it. As for his future, it'll be interesting to see. Sky/ BC can be ruthless in pursuit of winning, so if next years route looks like it suits him better, maybe, but they are also pretty big on the whole "no I in team" bit, and his displays this year have smacked of disloyalty.

If he maintains form for the vuelta after the olympics, there is the little matter of a fresh contador. At present he does look like he could give him a run for his money. But come the vuelta. Not so sure.

 

[rhubroma]

And the excitement would have been the non existent riders that are able to drop Wiggins in the mountains?

Froome.....

 

[rhubroma]

I finally see the folly of my ways....thank you for this thread....why oh why do I ever go near the clinic?

So I agree with the above post generally. Think Wiggins has had an extraordinary year. And I think it might be added to at the Olympics. As for Froome....hmm think he may have p*ssed on his chips with Sky with his little display today. I don't think it proved anything. Merely that on steeper sections he can accelerate quicker than Wiggins. Not necessarily sustain it. As for his future, it'll be interesting to see. Sky/ BC can be ruthless in pursuit of winning, so if next years route looks like it suits him better, maybe, but they are also pretty big on the whole "no I in team" bit, and his displays this year have smacked of disloyalty.

If he maintains form for the vuelta after the olympics, there is the little matter of a fresh contador. At present he does look like he could give him a run for his money. But come the vuelta. Not so sure.

And that's the thing, had the climbs been more difficult Wiggins would have suffered more.

That Froome wouldn't have sustained it is ridiculous in light of today's stage. He literally was chomping at the bit with no chance at freedom.

 

[webvan]

Dude, you're obviously a Wiggo hater, I find that sad as a rule to be a hater, but I guess you're entitled to your opinon, Froome couldn't sustain his killer attacks it in last year's Vuelta when the overall victory depended on it, so much we know for a fact. All your "Froome would be leading with 2+ minutes had he been on another team" rants are just that, rants.

We'll see what Froome does in the Vuelta when he's the #1, with all the pressure that goes with it. I like the guy so I'll be overjoyed if he wins but Wiggo doesn't deserve any of the direct or indirect hate he's getting. Heck, I don't think he could have cared less if Froome had tried to catch Valverde today. Froome could have gone for it too...except that if Wiggo had cracked for some reason or had a mechanical and Sky ended up losing the TDF, well...how would he have looked, not worth it.

 

[straydog]

And that's the thing, had the climbs been more difficult Wiggins would have suffered more.

That Froome wouldn't have sustained it is ridiculous in light of today's stage. He literally was chomping at the bit with no chance at freedom.

So lets say he could have kept away at that point. How much time do you think he would have put into Wiggins? They were less than a minute behind Valverde. So what? 20 seconds? Not going to be enough come the second TT. Just as his "attack" last week if it had stayed away wouldn't have been either.

And Wiggins was checking he wasn't dropping Froome earlier in the climb when VDB was going on the less steep sections. It's horses and carts. Froome has struggled a few times when it suits Wiggins and he can time trial it, just Wiggins doesn't try and make a song and dance over it. Obviously I think Wiggins doesn't want Froome dropped to protect himself, rather than any altruistic reasons. And I honestly believe Wiggins knew he had won it when Nibali got dropped, and knew they weren't going to catch Valverde.

Froome has been showboating, trying to make a show that he is stronger. Truth is if he really was noticeably and definitively stronger he would be leading. He's not. And I suspect he'll get a chance to test himself on another team sooner than he might be expecting. Which frankly I think the dodgy little oik deserves.

 

[rhubroma]

Dude, you're obviously a Wiggo hater, I find that sad as a rule to be a hater, but I guess you're entitled to your opinon, Froome couldn't sustain his killer attacks it in last year's Vuelta when the overall victory depended on it, so much we know for a fact. All your "Froome would be leading with 2+ minutes had he been on another team" rants are just that, rants.

We'll see what Froome does in the Vuelta when he's the #1, with all the pressure that goes with it. I like the guy so I'll be overjoyed if he wins but Wiggo doesn't deserve any of the direct or indirect hate he's getting. Heck, I don't think he could have cared less if Froome had tried to catch Valverde today. Froome could have gone for it too...except that if Wiggo had cracked for some reason or had a mechanical and Sky ended up losing the TDF, well...how would he have looked, not worth it.

And you are delusional. I have no emotional investment in Wiggins nor Froome, though think the latter would have put significant time into the former had he been able to race for himself.

Comparing past results to this turn is amateurish. Froome obviously has found an exceptional condition.

 

[Catwhoorg]

This guy could actually end up with around 2500 CQ points if he goes well at the Olympics ITT and perhaps even at the Worlds ITT.

I think he is a shoe in for an olympic (and worlds) medal of some color.Got a good shot at Olympic gold, depending on how Tony recovered the last couple of weeks.

 

[LaFlorecita]

"@ElsebethYNWA: Wiggins:" I don't get any credit for my results, still have to hear "Why isn't Alberto here" and all sorts of crap".

FU Wiggo.

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/bitter-wiggins-faar-ingen-kredit

 

[rhubroma]

So lets say he could have kept away at that point. How much time do you think he would have put into Wiggins? They were less than a minute behind Valverde. So what? 20 seconds? Not going to be enough come the second TT. Just as his "attack" last week if it had stayed away wouldn't have been either.

And Wiggins was checking he wasn't dropping Froome earlier in the climb when VDB was going on the less steep sections. It's horses and carts. Froome has struggled a few times when it suits Wiggins and he can time trial it, just Wiggins doesn't try and make a song and dance over it. Obviously I think Wiggins doesn't want Froome dropped to protect himself, rather than any altruistic reasons. And I honestly believe Wiggins knew he had won it when Nibali got dropped, and knew they weren't going to catch Valverde.

Froome has been showboating, trying to make a show that he is stronger. Truth is if he really was noticeably and definitively stronger he would be leading. He's not. And I suspect he'll get a chance to test himself on another team sooner than he might be expecting. Which frankly I think the dodgy little oik deserves.

Wiggins was put in difficulty after Froome worked for him and then won the sprint on La Planche des Belles Filles, on stage 11, when Froome was ordered to relent (damn those ear pieces), as well as today. Wiggins couldn't follow Froome on that last climb and, unfortunately, being noticeably and definitively stronger doesn't outweigh the corporate interests to have Wiggins in yellow.

You have probably put up the most spurious argument on this thread.

 

[argyllflyer]

Thought the ITV4 documentary on Wiggins was excellent, and gave a number of insights into why his career has gone the way it has. The FDJ DS Marc Madiot was in ProCycling this month lamenting Sky's approach to the sport, suggesting it takes the passion out of it. Voeckler said something similar the issue before in terms of the 'anglos' and how they trained.

But maybe that's what other teams will have to do now. In 2010 Sky took a rider with a few motivational issues and trained him into the ground, working not only on his strengths (I think it was Shane Sutton that said any world class track / pursuit rider would translate easily to road TTs) but also on his weaknesses, Sutton using the analogy of a top flight footballer yet still with a weaker foot. What was said time and again was that BW lacked belief in himself, as well as the focus and motivation to train. Sutton added that if BW had ridden track with the mental strength he has now, he'd have set unbeatable world records.

I'm not saying the Sky approach makes for great racing for spectators, but it is effective. The onus is now on the other teams to emulate them. What was it I heard yesterday? At Romandie only Sky and one of the Saur Sojasun riders (Coppel iirc) were doing warmdowns. Now it's half the peloton.

 

[richwagmn]

"@ElsebethYNWA: Wiggins:" I don't get any credit for my results, still have to hear "Why isn't Alberto here" and all sorts of crap".

FU Wiggo.

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/bitter-wiggins-faar-ingen-kredit

Seems to be a bit insecure. Maybe he should have gone out for an attack at the end of a stage.

At least when Armstrong was riding behind the postal train, he'd attack in the last couple of Ks. Wiggins wouldn't even do that.

 

[SafeBet]

Never liked his riding, but man he deserved it.
Concur with posts saying we don't know anything about Froome's ability to sustain an effort.
Nibali has attacked and opened a gap at times, but never sustained it. Who tells me Froome's would have been better at that? There's no evidence.

Time to cut them sideburns though.
Or I'll start calling him Edgar:

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Wiggins was put in difficulty after Froome worked for him and then won the sprint on La Planche des Belles Filles, on stage 11, when Froome was ordered to relent (damn those ear pieces), as well as today. Wiggins couldn't follow Froome on that last climb and, unfortunately, being noticably and definitively stronger doesn't outweigh the corporate interests to have Wiggins in yellow.

You have probably put up the most spurious argument on this thread.

Yes, Froome took 2 seconds out of Wiggins on La Planche des Belles Filles, although Wiggins was marking Evans anyway and letting Froome go for the stage win. I wouldn't say he was put in any difficulty.Stage 11 proved nothing either way. Froome was stronger today and could maybe have taken 10-20 seconds out of Wiggins. Even without the puncture that would leave him a lot of time to find to close the gaps Wiggins has gained in the time trial and prologue, not to mention the minute or so he is likely to gain on saturday.