Wiggins Discussion thread.

[JRanton]

It was a tough choice, but after beating Wiggins in the TT and going into the lead of the race they could have shown Froome a bit more faith.Though Sky don't seem to do "flexible" very well - one reason they suck at classics

But prior to that Vuelta he'd done precisely nothing to justify that faith. We're talking about perhaps the most outrageous break-out performance in the modern era of cycling (Wiggins 2009 runs it close). Two weeks before the race he was finishing in the bus in Poland, then only got a late call up to the Vuelta after an illness to Lars Peter Nordhaug (this was before Nordhaug had his own break-out in 2012) and was on the verge of being let go by Sky. Think about that for a second.

 

[JRanton]

I mean, just look at it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIRIAinJo0E

 

[roundabout]

That's what you get for making the leadership decision that far before the actual big event.

Or for failing to communicate to Froome that because he is less popular than Wiggins, his actual July form doesn't matter and Wiggins will be the first in line to get all the extra fame.

The real question is did Sky screw over Froome on stage 1 or was it just an unfortunate set of events and they did their best to help him in the circumstances.

 

[JRanton]

That's what you get for making the leadership decision that far before the actual big event.

Or for failing to communicate to Froome that because he is less popular than Wiggins, his actual July form doesn't matter and Wiggins will be the first in line to get all the extra fame.

The real question is did Sky screw over Froome on stage 1 or was it just an unfortunate set of events and they did their best to help him in the circumstances.

Porte and Knees both waited for him after the puncture.

 

[webvan]

But prior to that Vuelta he'd done precisely nothing to justify that faith. We're talking about perhaps the most outrageous break-out performance in the modern era of cycling (Wiggins 2009 runs it close). Two weeks before the race he was finishing in the bus in Poland, then only got a late call up to the Vuelta after an illness to Lars Peter Nordhaug (this was before Nordhaug had his own break-out in 2012) and was on the verge of being let go by Sky. Think about that for a second.

Thanks for the reminder, it's amazing how quickly we forget things, even the most amazing ones ;-)

 

[Wiggo Warrior]

Porte and Knees both waited for him after the puncture.

Although I think he only credits Richie in his book, and claims Richie noticed the problem himself rather than any team effort on his behalf. I haven't read it myself (and probably won't) but I have seen this quoted.

 

[wirral]

I mean, just look at it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIRIAinJo0E

Who were those commentators. Brilliant.

 

[Swifty's Cakes]

What choice did Sky have though? He had a contract for 2014 so they had to honour it. I read some talk that they tried to 'politely' usher him out of the door at the end of last year but no other team would have matched his 2014 salary.

my original post was trunkated for some reason,The full post was coming at it from both sides
Why would sky want to keep wiggins on a fat contract surely not just for the ToC?
Similarly why would Wiggins stay if he wants to ride TdF and knows he's playing second fiddle to Froome?

My guess is that Wiggins was told he would be going to the Tour if he was in form and Sky Management have done a u-turn at the behest of Froome and so brailsford and his team carry the can for this debacle by not being explicit from the word go.

 

[wirral]

I think everyone is being a bit hard on Dave "Knight of the Realm" Brailsford here.

He had to string Wiggo along about the possibility of going to the Tour because

A) Froome had a back problem.

B) Porte was suffering from some infection leading to a huge loss of form.

C) Cycling is a sport where leaders and favourites can crash out and be out for months.

D) Maybe most importantly, Wiggo has a contract for 2014 and if Dave had told him, "No Tour for you this year," he would have sulked all the way from Jan to Oct and produced no results whatsoever.

The bottom line is that Dave played his hand as well as he could and Wiggo just got played.

 

[oldcrank]

If Sir Brad ends up with Rainbow Bands in the ITT
all will be forgotten, and everyone will be happy.

 

[Miburo]

Dave made the right decision. Whatever he decided it would have bad consequences. Sadly enough for us he took the right one

 

[rzombie1988]

One of the biggest problems for Froome in 2012 is that he was invisible until the Dauphine. I remember in Romandie there were stages when he was coming in with the grupetto. Meanwhile Wiggins had the perfect build up, the route suited him perfectly and there was no Contador on the start line. How could Froome be miffed in the circumstances that he wasn't allowed to compete for the win on the road?

I know there's still debate about how Sky messed up in the 2011 Vuelta but again I think that's with the benefit of hindsight. Froome only made the Vuelta line-up as a late replacement for Lars Peter-Nordhaug. How could anyone have predicted that Froome would maintain his level throughout the entire Vuelta? Again, Wiggins was coming off a pretty good season with a Dauphine win, Paris-Nice podium and also with the 2009 Tour 4th place in the bank.

Agreed.

Froome did great in the Vuelta 2011 but doing good in one GT doesn't mean too much in the long run. He definitely looked like he had potential and upside, but so has Rolland, Pinot, Moreno and a bunch of others and they haven't won any TdF's.

I think Wiggins should be on this year's TdF team for many reasons, with one of them being that he really isn't a threat to Froome. Froome is even enough with him on the TT's and he's probably the best climber in the world right now.

 

[Poursuivant]

I think it comes down to trust. Froome doesn't trust Wiggins.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

I think it comes down to trust. Froome doesn't trust Wiggins.

All the more reason Brailsfraud should have them both on the team - entertainment for the masses watching Dawg & Wiggo knifing each other....

 

[bigcog]

Because Wiggins proved himself a superior rider throughout the year, and gained a dominant position in the road.

Any "deal" was extorted by Froome via being a treacherous ******* and is hardly binding

You had better tell DB and tell him to replace Froome with Wiggins. I'm sure success is then guaranteed and Wiggins will claim another TDF.

 

[jaylew]

I mean, just look at it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIRIAinJo0E

Freaking incredible finish.

 

[The Hitch]

Agreed.

Froome did great in the Vuelta 2011 but doing good in one GT doesn't mean too much in the long run. He definitely looked like he had potential and upside, but so has Rolland, Pinot, Moreno and a bunch of others and they haven't won any TdF's..

Froome 2011 vuelta was way bigger than any of those. He was the best rider in the gt. None of those have ever been that. one can say a performance is an accident if a rider has 1 good day, but froome had several, over a long period, in different disciplines -tt, long mountain, medium length climb.

Of course we've seen some (peter velits, though he was nowhere near as good as froome) have good performances then whilst, usually for clinic reasons, but in a sport that is as much about absolute physiology as cycling, it is very rare for someone to not be able to reproduce a top performance, especially at that age.

That said, I understand why sky would have chosen Wiggins over froome since Wiggins had shown more, especially that year, though I always assumed it was because sky had planned for Wiggins to be the king that year, and froome had no need to perform before the tour. I also dispute the idea that the second best rider on a team must be a domestique and can't have a free role. Under normal circumstances froome should have been given a free role, but sky wanted to win with Wiggins.

 

[shades1]

froome came 2nd 3.21 behind wiggins in 2012 , froome could of rode away from wiggins on nearly every mountain top finish , how long you think that 3.21 he gained in time trials would have lasted , it would have been completely gone by the time they hit grand columbier if froome did not have to babysit him . wiggins is the disgrace here not froome or sky , its not within him to help others now he is not the number one anymore . he is selfish and arrogant and not willing to work for any other rider its as simple as that . but because he is now a "sir" he will be protected with fairy stories in the press when the plain truth is that he has too bigger ego to work for froome . clearly there is dislike for each other and i can fully understand why , froome has been treated like a dog by wiggins for 3 years .

 

[phanatic]

Under normal circumstances froome should have been given a free role, but sky wanted to win with Wiggins.

When Astana tried that, Lance got third. Jan and Vino finished third and fifth. It kind of worked in 2008, but Frandy still don't like it. Wiggins, likewise, was going to crack mentally, if not physically, had Froome been let loose on the peloton. Sky had a sure 1-2, so why not run with it?

For Vuelta 2011, as an aside, Sky has no excuse: Froome clearly was the best in show.

 

[Non Grimpeur]

I find it interesting that one man has so far been able to avoid any criticism in the Wiggins/Froome debate - David Walsh.

It was Walsh that stirred things up with the whole thing of Froome not being paid by Wiggins for his efforts in 2012. This was not true. According with tradition, Wiggins handed over his winnings to Sky who then shared it out between the tour team. Wiggins did not pay Froome any of his bonus paid by Sky where traditions are a bit murky.

I am reading elsewhere on the internet that Froome - to his credit - did not want to release his book before the Tour but he was overruled. Probably by Walsh who ghost wrote the book for him and probably wanted to ramp up his share of the sales.

It was also Walsh that exposed the potential problems with Jonathan Tiernan Locke despite the fact that he has not been found guilty of anything. JTL deserved to be treated with respect but Walsh wanted his scoop for The Sunday Times - who coincidentally are ultimately the same paymasters as Team Sky.

Walsh gets a lot of credit for exposing Lance Armstrong. But he was only able to do this because his employer had the money to pay the legal bills. Smarter cycling journalists and others were on to LA before him but had to keep their mouths shut.

Now Walsh is a fully paid up member of the Froome supporters club and has played no small part in the shunning of Bradley Wiggins by Sky.

 

[noddy69]

I find it interesting that one man has so far been able to avoid any criticism in the Wiggins/Froome debate - David Walsh.

It was Walsh that stirred things up with the whole thing of Froome not being paid by Wiggins for his efforts in 2012. This was not true. According with tradition, Wiggins handed over his winnings to Sky who then shared it out between the tour team. Wiggins did not pay Froome any of his bonus paid by Sky where traditions are a bit murky.

I am reading elsewhere on the internet that Froome - to his credit - did not want to release his book before the Tour but he was overruled. Probably by Walsh who ghost wrote the book for him and probably wanted to ramp up his share of the sales.

It was also Walsh that exposed the potential problems with Jonathan Tiernan Locke despite the fact that he has not been found guilty of anything. JTL deserved to be treated with respect but Walsh wanted his scoop for The Sunday Times - who coincidentally are ultimately the same paymasters as Team Sky.

Walsh gets a lot of credit for exposing Lance Armstrong. But he was only able to do this because his employer had the money to pay the legal bills. Smarter cycling journalists and others were on to LA before him but had to keep their mouths shut.

Now Walsh is a fully paid up member of the Froome supporters club and has played no small part in the shunning of Bradley Wiggins by Sky.

If he said nothing about JTL he would be hiding the abmnormalities. The whole idea of Walsh being there is for transparency so I think your just stirring . As for Wiggins, well he personally did not pay Froome, he has won an American race and not being involved at the real top level here. If he was he would be in the team. Sentiment needs to be left at the door, he is just not good for the team......If only cycling allowed mid season transfers I would love to see him get whipped in the tour as soon as it goes uphill.....or rains going downhill and he got flashbacks of the GIRO debacle.

 

[Non Grimpeur]

If he said nothing about JTL he would be hiding the abmnormalities. The whole idea of Walsh being there is for transparency so I think your just stirring . As for Wiggins, well he personally did not pay Froome, he has won an American race and not being involved at the real top level here. If he was he would be in the team. Sentiment needs to be left at the door, he is just not good for the team......If only cycling allowed mid season transfers I would love to see him get whipped in the tour as soon as it goes uphill.....or rains going downhill and he got flashbacks of the GIRO debacle.

You say Wiggins has not been involved at the real top level. Who on Sky this year has? Certainly not Porte. Thomas has been decent but Wiggins' performance in Paris Roubaix, the TT in TOC and the last climbing stage there where Dombrowski could hardly hold his wheel has been very good.

This is not about sentiment. Wiggins is still a very good rider and one of the best that Sky has got. He deserves a place on merit. He has said he would help Froome but Froome has frozen him out.

As for who is not good for the team it is Froome. He openly attacked his leader. Read Wiggins' autobiography. He was willing to work for Froome after he took the red jersey in the 2011 Vuelta but management overruled him. The same management that told Froome to work for Wiggins in 2012.

Wiggins did not stop Froome riding in 2012. I bet he wished he had done now.

 

[roundabout]

Dombrowski in his first "real" race of the year.

I also bet that Wiggins would have enjoyed doing the Toussuire stage without Froome.

 

[Non Grimpeur]

Dombrowski in his first "real" race of the year.

I also bet that Wiggins would have enjoyed doing the Toussuire stage without Froome.

Until he attacked, Froome was magnificent in helping Wiggins on La Toussuire.

 

[Cookster15]

froome came 2nd 3.21 behind wiggins in 2012 , froome could of rode away from wiggins on nearly every mountain top finish , how long you think that 3.21 he gained in time trials would have lasted , it would have been completely gone by the time they hit grand columbier if froome did not have to babysit him . wiggins is the disgrace here not froome or sky , its not within him to help others now he is not the number one anymore . he is selfish and arrogant and not willing to work for any other rider its as simple as that . but because he is now a "sir" he will be protected with fairy stories in the press when the plain truth is that he has too bigger ego to work for froome . clearly there is dislike for each other and i can fully understand why , froome has been treated like a dog by wiggins for 3 years .

This post sums up my thoughts on Wiggins. His knighthood seems to have given him a sense of entitlement. But the painful truth is even Wiggins 2012 would not have beaten Froome 2013. And Froome 2013 would not have lost 3.21 to Wiggins in the 2012 TT's either. Wiggins arrogance was obvious in 2012. The Knighthood was a little premature I think.