Wiggins in clean tour win shocker?

[taiwan]

As you so rightly pointed out, preeminence at 800m doesn't make a good candidate for the Javelin. It didn't stop Steve Backley though.

He didn't know he had potential until he tried. Then he had to train with "specificity" (a coaching buzz word) in mind. It's not a difficult thought process this, honestly.

I don't think I've ever said that it's impossible for an IP rider to become a GC rider, but few do it, and I'm not buying that Wiggins IP quality explains his GC candidate transformation. It's an unlikly late switch.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

You must be one of the last few on the good ship Armstrong It's not to late, there are a few lifeboats left!

I've had a few bruising exchanges on other Forums, it must be said!

I was convinced Lance was doping when I watched the Sestriere stage in 1999, but trying to defend him was fun. Not trying to defend the claim he won clean, as that was impossible, but there was some great fun to be had defending the claim that he won simply due to the benefit of some super drug that Ferrari had got hold of as case after case revealed the enthusiasm and dedication of other doping networks. Shame it emerged as being as simple as having bought off the UCI! That was a sad day, from a debating viewpoint, it must be said, as arguing against that was a challenge too far.

I never bothered defending Berto, as a positive test is a positive test, and false positives are (nigh on) impossible.

 

[Cauberg]

Can I just ask the Brad/British apologists this, if a Wiggins was from another country, say Spain for example, and his career followed the same 'progression', would you all be in here calling him a doper?

I'm not an apologist and this is a hypothetical case but I'd like to think I'd look at the evidence and listen to the arguments and then try to make up my mind.

Of course, sometimes you just don't know and are left with a question mark as, I think, is the case here.

 

[roundabout]

As you so rightly pointed out, preeminence at 800m doesn't make a good candidate for the Javelin. It didn't stop Steve Backley though.

He didn't know he had potential until he tried. Then he had to train with "specificity" (a coaching buzz word) in mind. It's not a difficult thought process this, honestly.

So what was his 800m PB? Go on, enlighten us how decent he was?

And lol at the javelin chucker. Are you Jim Rosenthal by any chance?

 

[FrankChickens]

No. I always argue the side of the accused. It's more interesting and it incites a greater depth of response from those on the other side of the argument. If we all just shout "doper" all the time, it gets rather tedious, as we end of slapping each other on our virtual backs and calling each other damn fine fellows for being so insightful!

genius, thank you, good to have you around. and I'm mostly in the opposite camp.

 

[FrankChickens]

Individual pursuit is short endurance in track racing.
Can we stop with the track BS. Otherwsie TeamGB has all the winners for all the next road races for the next 10 years right there in their stable. Hoy for Paris Roubaix anyone?

I see Hoy more of a talent for Milan San Remo, provided Froome is there with the hurry-up gestures over the Poggio.

 

[Bertie]

Or how about Taylor Phinney from track pursuit to Paris Roubaix...Oh wait it looks like he's on his way, scratch that...

 

[richtea]

There is irrefutable fact in Wiggins win. He did it with the help of 2 doctors of huge questionable cleanliness in sporting circles. There is no other reason to hire these doctors except for their ability to run doping programs.

This by no means seals the deal unless these doctors have nothing to offer other than doping expertise. Without defending Sky, there could be many other possibilities for hiring them, chief among them skills and experience of applying general medicine in top level cycling.

 

[Cerberus]

This by no means seals the deal unless these doctors have nothing to offer other than doping expertise. Without defending Sky, there could be many other possibilities for hiring them, chief among them skills and experience of applying general medicine in top level cycling.

Yes, but unless you actually want the doping expertise you have to weight their general expertise against how badly it looks and wonder whether you couldn't perhaps find someone almost as good who wasn't tainted. If on the other hand you want the doping expertise, finding someone with the expertise, but without the taint of suspicion, could be rather difficult.

ETA: this of cause is ever so much more true, if like Wiggins you have come out strongly against such doctors in the past.

 

[taiwan]

Or how about Taylor Phinney from track pursuit to Paris Roubaix...Oh wait it looks like he's on his way, scratch that...

22, won the espoirs race, and it still may never happen.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No. I always argue the side of the accused. It's more interesting and it incites a greater depth of response from those on the other side of the argument. If we all just shout "doper" all the time, it gets rather tedious, as we end of slapping each other on our virtual backs and calling each other damn fine fellows for being so insightful!

Interesting - so, you are not interested in debating the merits, but pick the side of the accused, theres a term for that.... also, are you planning on branching out to other 'accused' like poor poisoned Frank and people who merely consumed tarnished steak?

I'm not an apologist and this is a hypothetical case but I'd like to think I'd look at the evidence and listen to the arguments and then try to make up my mind.

Of course, sometimes you just don't know and are left with a question mark as, I think, is the case here.

I think thats what most people do - cyclings history means one cannot rely on testing alone.

And in every big doping incident the first clue is often the lie or implausible story - and so far Sky have failed that test.

 

[richtea]

Yes, but unless you actually want the doping expertise you have to weight their general expertise against how badly it looks and wonder whether you couldn't perhaps find someone almost as good who wasn't tainted. If on the other hand you want the doping expertise, finding someone with the expertise, but without the taint of suspicion, could be rather difficult.

ETA: this of cause is ever so much more true, if like Wiggins you have come out strongly against such doctors in the past.

Of course, this is a recruitment dilemna. There are also potential issues associated with how far there are queues of unemployed untainted but experienced doctors looking for work in cycling - I have no idea.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This by no means seals the deal unless these doctors have nothing to offer other than doping expertise. Without defending Sky, there could be many other possibilities for hiring them, chief among them skills and experience of applying general medicine in top level cycling.

Your point would be valid except that Sky replaced 2 accomplished Doctors, including Roger Palfreeman who was part of BC for many years is highly regarded - I am sure he has seen one or two saddle sores and boils in his time.

 

[richtea]

Your point would be valid except that Sky replaced 2 accomplished Doctors, including Roger Palfreeman who was part of BC for many years is highly regarded - I am sure he has seen one or two saddle sores and boils in his time.

I am not saying it isn't suspicious, merely highlighting that there are plausible scenarios that do not involve doping. For example, while Palfreeman may have a strong pedigree in track racing, it is not inconceivable that Leinders could offer greater expertise with respect to the road.

 

[the big ring]

A few years ago, a lot of hoopla / fuss was made of all the health checks the riders go through pre-tour, done by the tour docs, with pics of athletes lying down on beds hooked up to ECGs etc, and their weights and resting HRs were listed also.

Does this not happen any more?

ETA: http://www.letour.fr/le-tour/2012/us/teams.html#sky says BW = 76kg.

 

[BYOP88]

22, won the espoirs race, and it still may never happen.

Yeap as Eric Baumann can testify.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I am not saying it isn't suspicious, merely highlighting that there are plausible scenarios that do not involve doping. For example, while Palfreeman may have a strong pedigree in track racing, it is not inconceivable that Leinders could offer greater expertise with respect to the road.

Well, don't tell Rapha Condor Sharp - because that is who Palfreeman assists now

Here is a brief bio on Palfreeman - what is Lienders or Bartaluccis expertise in?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Interesting - so, you are not interested in debating the merits, but pick the side of the accused, theres a term for that.... also, are you planning on branching out to other 'accused' like poor poisoned Frank and people who merely consumed tarnished steak?

I'm certainly interested in the merits of issues, but the normal "yah boo sucks" type debate here doesn't really help me get to the bottom of anything. So a different approach is required sometimes.

Eventually, someone might actually explain why a pursuiter of Wiggo's class can't perform in a GT instead of simply saying "It's not possible". If it's genuinely impossible then fine, but let's have a bit of objective discussion of the subject...

Why would I defend Berto or Franck? They've both failed tests, and the chances of this happening accidentally are slimmer than very slim.

Defending Wiggo is much more entertaining as there's no positive test and performance levels are not super-human. Thus, the evidence against his is necessarily subjective and prime fodder for a bit of cut and thrust.

The internet is primarily entertainment, even The Clinic @ Cycling News. Every so often, it procides some useful information. If I wanted real philosophy or proper debates, I wouldn't come here.

 

[taiwan]

A few years ago, a lot of hoopla / fuss was made of all the health checks the riders go through pre-tour, done by the tour docs, with pics of athletes lying down on beds hooked up to ECGs etc, and their weights and resting HRs were listed also.

Does this not happen any more?

ETA: http://www.letour.fr/le-tour/2012/us/teams.html#sky says BW = 76kg.

dafuq? That's heavy. Must have been putting out huge wattages on the climbs, although I don't immediately see that as suspicious. Is a bit funny when he's one of the best climbers in the race though.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm certainly interested in the merits of issues, but the normal "yah boo sucks" type debate here doesn't really help me get to the bottom of anything. So a different approach is required sometimes.

Eventually, someone might actually explain why a pursuiter of Wiggo's class can't perform in a GT instead of simply saying "It's not possible". If it's genuinely impossible then fine, but let's have a bit of objective discussion of the subject...

Why would I defend Berto or Franck? They've both failed tests, and the chances of this happening accidentally are slimmer than very slim.

Defending Wiggo is much more entertaining as there's no positive test and performance levels are not super-human. Thus, the evidence against his is necessarily subjective and prime fodder for a bit of cut and thrust.

The internet is primarily entertainment, even The Clinic @ Cycling News. Every so often, it procides some useful information. If I wanted real philosophy or proper debates, I wouldn't come here.

The blue contradicts the bolded.

As to pursuiter becoming a GT winner - we know its not impossible, the philosophical reaction (since you like that) should be how is that possible.

Why aren't more teams snapping up pusuiters as this is obviously where the next generation of GT winners shall come from?

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

dafuq? That's heavy. Must have been putting out huge wattages on the climbs, although I don't immediately see that as suspicious. Is a bit funny when he's one of the best climbers in the race though.

Why not?

....

 

[armchairclimber]

The blue contradicts the bolded.

As to pursuiter becoming a GT winner - we know its not impossible, the philosophical reaction (since you like that) should be how is that possible.

Why aren't more teams snapping up pusuiters as this is obviously where the next generation of GT winners shall come from?

I answered this way back. Not all pursuiters are like Wiggins. He is built to be an endurance athlete. His success in pursuits was the abnormality...if there is such a thing in his case.

There is nothing whatsoever in his performances or career progression that suggests doping.

 

[taiwan]

Why not?

....

Because he won't have been producing a tell-tale W/kg number. Does seem heavy for a climber though.

 

[richtea]

Well, don't tell Rapha Condor Sharp - because that is who Palfreeman assists now

Here is a brief bio on Palfreeman - what is Lienders or Bartaluccis expertise in?

Its difficult to find such a synopsis of the two doctors, but with all those years at Rabo, FDJ, Cervelo, you would have thought they would have developed some expertise in applying medicine in road cycling at the highest level, giving them a specific advantage over Palfreeman (alongside other factors such as personal relationships mentioned in the other thread). Sky could well have hired them for their doping knowledge, but a non doping explanation is not inadmissible. Palfreeman moving to a continental level outfit doesn't exactly speak volumes about his competitiveness in this particular labour market though.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I answered this way back. Not all pursuiters are like Wiggins. He is built to be an endurance athlete. His success in pursuits was the abnormality...if there is such a thing in his case.

There is nothing whatsoever in his performances or career progression that suggests doping.

An endurance athlete? So, British Cycling were wasting all their time (and your money) having him go around a track?
Just as well Garmin were able to show them the error of their ways.

To the blue - maybe he was doping earlier with British Cycling and when he got off the gear and joined a clean American team realized he was a Tour winner - ya, that makes sense.