Wiggins in clean tour win shocker?

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taiwan said:
So why is it even meaningful that his development from 2009 wasn't that exceptional?
Several posters on here have pointed to the transition from 4k pursuitor to GT contender and sudden "out of the blue" improvement as evidence of juicing.
Put simply, that evidence just isn't there.

Yes, SKY have a credibility issue to answer as far as the Doc goes but that is a different thing entirely.

There used to be sound discussion and analysis in the Clinic...and there still needs to be an interrogation of the sport but it is undermined by some Pavlovian, reactionary Hogwash from a small coterie of contributors.

I was new to this place last year and only really stop by when TDF or the Vuelta are on....too busy at other times. Speaking as an occasional visitor, the Clinic would be much more valuable and much less ridiculous if there was a broader constituency.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
I'm not saying he WAS doping in 2004, I'm only pointing out his great recovery [doping=recovery] in comparison to Brad M. who came in 8th in a less than clean Giro.
Well this can go both ways, and without a confession we'll never know!

Either he is a supreme talent, with a massive aerobic capabilities on the track and the natural ability to recover better than someone who placed well in a doped up Gito.

Or he was already doping in 2004 and only decided to dope properly in 2008/9.

Unfortunately, these two extremes don't really help, as they simply re-express the two sides of the argument already ie Wiggo is either a doper or great natural talent :)
 
Oct 30, 2010
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armchairclimber said:
Several posters on here have pointed to the transition from 4k pursuitor to GT contender and sudden "out of the blue" improvement as evidence of juicing.
Put simply, that evidence just isn't there.

Yes, SKY have a credibility issue to answer as far as the Doc goes but that is a different thing entirely.

There used to be sound discussion and analysis in the Clinic...and there still needs to be an interrogation of the sport but it is undermined by some Pavlovian, reactionary Hogwash from a small coterie of contributors.

I was new to this place last year and only really stop by when TDF or the Vuelta are on....too busy at other times. Speaking as an occasional visitor, the Clinic would be much more valuable and much less ridiculous if there was a broader constituency.
Wise words indeed. There are certain 5,000-post posters here who take tinfoil hat wearing to absolute ridiculous levels. They simply refuse to even consider the idea that there isn't a broad conspiracy between ASO/UCI/SKY.

Someone like Armstrong was always on the 'dark side'. Wiggo, well you don't spend all your life believing one thing (clean cycling) just to chuck it all out the window cause you look good in yellow. He's also British - and 'fair play' is perhaps more important here than win at all costs. I wouldn't expect non-Brits to understand how intergral it is in our psyche.
 
Wallace and Gromit said:
By introducing the idea of Wiggo doping in 2004, you open up an interesting can of worms. If you're doping in 2004 and getting the sh*t kicked out of you on the road climbs in 2006, 2007 etc. why leave it to 2008/9 to start doping properly? That's an awful lot of suffering to endure if you have already turned to the Dark Side.

This makes no sense. Wiggo was an afterthought road-wise in 2008. He left High Road after the management told him that their plans for him in 2009 went no further than being in Cav's leadout train, so he's unlikely to have suddenly come across the extra resources in 2008/9 to start doping properly if he'd only been doing "amateur" doping up to then.
Actually, doping for IPs would have differences c/t doping for GTs. And track has quite its share of doping.

Not that I want to get into a back and forth argument about the whole IP thing, as I think I have made my POV clear on that. It should just be considered that a change of focus training wise would also require a change in doping (if one were, that is :D)
 
Apr 17, 2010
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Markyboyzx6r said:
... He's also British - and 'fair play' is perhaps more important here than win at all costs. I wouldn't expect non-Brits to understand how intergral it is in our psyche.
You mean like News of the World employees, and Marcus Agius of LIBOR scandal fame? Tell me another one.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Unfortunately, these two extremes don't really help, as they simply re-express the two sides of the argument already ie Wiggo is either a doper or great natural talent :)
To recover from a 4k pursuit is something quite different to recovery in a Grand Tour we might say.

MAybe Wiggo was clean up to 2008, after his sudden 11 kilo swing I am pretty sure he is not.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
To recover from a 4k pursuit is something quite different to recovery in a Grand Tour we might say.
Indeed, which is why I referenced Wiggo's recovery prowess to that of an IP rival who had demonstrated GT-style recovery prowess.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Markyboyzx6r said:
Wise words indeed. There are certain 5,000-post posters here who take tinfoil hat wearing to absolute ridiculous levels. They simply refuse to even consider the idea that there isn't a broad conspiracy between ASO/UCI/SKY.
TBH I would have thought that was one of the less controversial claims. It was a pacours disigned with one rider in mind, and both organisations have expressed delight at the business prospects of having Wiggins win the Tour. I don't know if conspiracy is the right word for the visible part of all that, but it looked like they had their favourite.

Next question is whether any other methods were employed to ensure thier winner. You just need to look at the current case against Armstrong to find some suggestions.
 
May 26, 2010
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armchairclimber said:
There used to be sound discussion and analysis in the Clinic...and there still needs to be an interrogation of the sport but it is undermined by some Pavlovian, reactionary Hogwash from a small coterie of contributors.

I was new to this place last year and only really stop by when TDF or the Vuelta are on....too busy at other times. Speaking as an occasional visitor, the Clinic would be much more valuable and much less ridiculous if there was a broader constituency.
Calling out the clinic as unsound is as bad as Wiggins labelling anyone questioning his performance as F****** W****** and C****.


So it you feel this way why stay?

There is irrefutable fact in Wiggins win. He did it with the help of 2 doctors of huge questionable cleanliness in sporting circles. There is no other reason to hire these doctors except for their ability to run doping programs.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Indeed, which is why I referenced Wiggo's recovery prowess to that of an IP rival who had demonstrated GT-style recovery prowess.
When I look at Brad McGee's physiologics and than turn my eye towards Wiggo I see a lot of difference. Another big difference is McGee's carreer, he showed talent for road racing early on. Where did Brad W. do this?

Bad comparison when you take in regard McGee never could follow on the high mountain tops where Wiggo and his train are setting the pace...

I did like McGee though, great fighter. Too bad of his injuries.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Wallace and Gromit said:
LeMond only came second in the junior IP. Wiggo won. Wiggo is clearly superior to LeMond. What more proof do these people need? :)
On the other hand, if you show talent at a junior level, who knows what you'll eventually excel at? If you are at the top of one tree in your mid-late twenties, it's more remarkable to switch and get to the top again.
 
May 26, 2010
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Markyboyzx6r said:
I wouldn't expect non-Brits to understand how intergral it is in our psyche.
You might then be surprised to know that the Brits invented concentration camps then in South Africa. I am sure their conquering half the known world was gracious and with high morals:rolleyes:

I suppose Tommy Simpson wasn't a Brit then, Sean Yates or Robert Millar never mind David Millar.
 
Oct 30, 2011
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Markyboyzx6r said:
Wise words indeed. There are certain 5,000-post posters here who take tinfoil hat wearing to absolute ridiculous levels. They simply refuse to even consider the idea that there isn't a broad conspiracy between ASO/UCI/SKY.

Someone like Armstrong was always on the 'dark side'. Wiggo, well you don't spend all your life believing one thing (clean cycling) just to chuck it all out the window cause you look good in yellow. He's also British - and 'fair play' is perhaps more important here than win at all costs. I wouldn't expect non-Brits to understand how intergral it is in our psyche.
What xenophobic drivel.

A few famous Britons for you to consider;

Jonathan Aitken and his "sword of truth".

Ashley Young and Steven Gerrard trip over thin air.

Much of the British banking establishment conspire to fix LIBOR.

David Millar and Dwain Chambers cheat in the exact same way that you say Wiggins cannot.

I am British. I know with people integrity and people who would sell their own grandmother. Many people that I have seen who profess a sense of "British honour" can be double-crossing b******s if given the chance, and many who feel no need to make such claims are honest even when they have no need to be. We are not perfect - we are just like everyone else.
 

the big ring

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Jul 28, 2009
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Wiggo was a class apart as a pursuiter. For example, he beat McGee by 4 over four seconds in the Athens final, which equates to a 5% power advantage, all other things equal.

In the Athens IP, Wiggo was very consistent through the rounds, doing 4:15 in the qualifying round and 4:16 in the final.

McGee faded from a 4:17 in the qualifying round to over 4:20 in the final, suggesting Wiggo's recovery powers were superior to McGee as well.

So we have someone with more power and better recovery than a man who finished that year's Giro 8th @ 6 minutes.

This proves nothing, other than highlighting just how good Wiggo was relative to other world class pursuiters, even those with proven GT capabilities.

Food for thought, maybe.
I would think that being 4 years younger, yet mature (ie not adolescent) would give you that edge in recovery - plus the fact McGee by that stage had been IPing at world class level for 11 years - vs 7 for Wiggins. 28 vs 24 - ask any master's racer and they'll tell you the speed goes first :(

I would definitely agree, power at VO2max does not translate to performance in a GT.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Bad comparison when you take in regard McGee never could follow on the high mountain tops where Wiggo and his train are setting the pace...

I did like McGee though, great fighter. Too bad of his injuries.
As demonstrated by his crushing victory in 2004, Wiggo was/is simply a better athlete than McGee.
 
May 26, 2010
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Wallace and Gromit said:
As demonstrated by his crushing victory in 2004, Wiggo was/is simply a better athlete than McGee.
Big difference between track and GTs in fact there no comparison.
 

the big ring

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Jul 28, 2009
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Wallace and Gromit said:
As demonstrated by his crushing victory in 2004, Wiggo was/is simply a better athlete than McGee.
Except the Aussies smashed the poms in the TP - do we know the order the races were held?
 
Dec 27, 2010
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Wallace and Gromit said:
As demonstrated by his crushing victory in 2004, Wiggo was/is simply a better athlete than McGee.
And McGee was 8th on a tame Giro route in 2004.
QED Wiggins could win the Tour on a similarly tame route.

We've cracked it lads!
 
May 26, 2009
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armchairclimber said:
Actually, he performed like a newbie who didn't have anywhere near the aerobic endurance background to be a GC contender, nor the belief that he could be a GC contender. He was poorly prepared.

He hasn't transformed himself overnight and SKY have taken at least a couple of years to improve their training and physical preparation.

He has always been an exceptionally talented athlete, he just hasn't always had the preparation or team around him to win a GT. The progression from 4th with Garmin to podium in the 2011 vuelta to winner of the TDF is not that exceptional or meteoric.
I guess that's why the dodgy Doctors were hired.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
Big difference between track and GTs in fact there no comparison.
So the fact that Wiggo demonstrated superior power and superior recovery in the IP to McGee, who'd been competitive in the Giro 3 months earlier provides no basis for comparison/prediction of any sort?

At least come up with some objective arguments. Don't just say things you want to be true!

McGee proved you can ride a top quality GT and a world class IP in the same season, yet Wiggo stuffed him in the IP. What specifically tells you that Wiggo could not also perform to a high standard in the IP? Weight? Aero position? Technique? Height? Doping? There must be some specific reason you can come up with.
 
May 26, 2010
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Wallace and Gromit said:
So the fact that Wiggo demonstrated superior power and superior recovery in the IP to McGee, who'd been competitive in the Giro 3 months earlier provides no basis for comparison/prediction of any sort?
On a track it is and in ITTs it is at McGee demonstrated. But it does show the ability to do it for 3 weeks of racing, ie a GT. That used to be demonstrated at an early age pre epo. After EPO well it was the best programs and the best adapters to EPO that won. It maybe still is. Wiggins showing natural climbing ability late in his career stinks.

Wallace and Gromit said:
At least come up with some objective arguments. Don't just say things you want to be true!
You keep ignoring the objective argument that Sky works with known dopers and doping doctors. What more of an objective argument do you want? after this evidence anything is possible in pro cycling as the last 20+ years have shown. Riis and Armstrong to name 2.

Wallace and Gromit said:
McGee proved you can ride a top quality GT and a world class IP in the same season, yet Wiggo stuffed him in the IP. What specifically tells you that Wiggo could not also perform to a high standard in the IP? Weight? Aero position? Technique? Height? Doping? There must be some specific reason you can come up with.
So Wiggins stuffed him in the IP but not the GT, which unlike other well know GT winners pre EPO shows at an early age. But Wiggins is different. He waits till he is older like Riis and Armstrong before demonstrating his GT ability?

True marginal gains might enable one to win a GT by 8 seconds. Not 3 minutes.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Wallace and Gromit said:
So the fact that Wiggo demonstrated superior power and superior recovery in the IP to McGee, who'd been competitive in the Giro 3 months earlier provides no basis for comparison/prediction of any sort?

At least come up with some objective arguments. Don't just say things you want to be true!

McGee proved you can ride a top quality GT and a world class IP in the same season, yet Wiggo stuffed him in the IP. What specifically tells you that Wiggo could not also perform to a high standard in the IP? Weight? Aero position? Technique? Height? Doping? There must be some specific reason you can come up with.
You haven't even seen that Giro did you? Other question, how long have u been following roadracing? Stick with your guns matey.

Don't compare McGee with Wiggo. McGee had balls as a roadracer, haven't seen that with your hero.

Even a short google search explains why McGee was a rider and Wiggo is a product, since everything you post is quite googlish in my opininion.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Lordy. This is hard work...

For the last time, I'm not defending Sky, Wiggins or anybody. I'm simply pointing out that Wiggo has demonstrably superior aerobic capabilities and recovery powers than McGee based on their 2004 Olympic IP performances and asking why these capabilities and power could not transfer to GTs for Wiggo, when they clearly did for McGee.

Wiggo's current form might have come out of a medicine cabinet, but you are being completely unconditional in stating that it does. Thus, it falls to you to explain why Wiggo couldn't demonstrate a similar level of GT performance to McGee in cycling terms. You've concluded it isn't possible. Please explain why.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
You haven't even seen that Giro did you? Other question, how long have u been following roadracing? Stick with your guns matey.
Great. The standard fallback position of those who can't construct an objective argument - ask how long the other poster has been following road racing. Since 1982 as it happens and I didn't see the 2004 Giro as my second daughter had just arrived and we were in the throes of moving house, so apologies for resorting to a bit of Googling to confirm McGee's performances. I did, however, see ever pedal rev of the IP later that year.

Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Don't compare McGee with Wiggo. McGee had balls as a roadracer, haven't seen that with your hero.
Wiggo may have no balls, but he's got the MJ and the Olympic IP gold medal (*2). You're right, though - there should be no comparison between McGee and Wiggo.
 

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