Wiggins in clean tour win shocker?

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Aug 18, 2009
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armchairclimber said:
The progression from 4th with Garmin to podium in the 2011 vuelta to winner of the TDF is not that exceptional or meteoric.
He's been a pro since 2002, not 2009.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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taiwan said:
You make it sound so simple, yet there are no precedents for the IPWC and Tour wins, and few for stage races in general.
Wiggo was a class apart as a pursuiter. For example, he beat McGee by 4 over four seconds in the Athens final, which equates to a 5% power advantage, all other things equal.

In the Athens IP, Wiggo was very consistent through the rounds, doing 4:15 in the qualifying round and 4:16 in the final.

McGee faded from a 4:17 in the qualifying round to over 4:20 in the final, suggesting Wiggo's recovery powers were superior to McGee as well.

So we have someone with more power and better recovery than a man who finished that year's Giro 8th @ 6 minutes.

This proves nothing, other than highlighting just how good Wiggo was relative to other world class pursuiters, even those with proven GT capabilities.

Food for thought, maybe.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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armchairclimber said:
Actually, he performed like a newbie who didn't have anywhere near the aerobic endurance background to be a GC contender, nor the belief that he could be a GC contender. He was poorly prepared.

He hasn't transformed himself overnight and SKY have taken at least a couple of years to improve their training and physical preparation.

He has always been an exceptionally talented athlete, he just hasn't always had the preparation or team around him to win a GT. The progression from 4th with Garmin to podium in the 2011 vuelta to winner of the TDF is not that exceptional or meteoric.
If you change the highlighted to Doctors - which is also correct - it puts a rather different slant on your argument.
 
May 26, 2010
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armchairclimber said:
Yes, I know. A long road to GC contender and winner...coming from a discipline which demands different training emphasis. It's a good job that there are some patient, intelligent folk to guide you through this minefield.
These patient intelligent folk also happen to be doctors associated with doping riders.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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armchairclimber said:
Only if you have the mind of a muppet.
Really. Can you show me what would be wrong or factually incorrect in this statement.

He hasn't transformed himself overnight and SKY have taken at least a couple of Doctors to improve their training and physical preparation.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Wiggo was a class apart as a pursuiter. For example, he beat McGee by 4 over four seconds in the Athens final, which equates to a 5% power advantage, all other things equal.

In the Athens IP, Wiggo was very consistent through the rounds, doing 4:15 in the qualifying round and 4:16 in the final.

McGee faded from a 4:17 in the qualifying round to over 4:20 in the final, suggesting Wiggo's recovery powers were superior to McGee as well.

So we have someone with more power and better recovery than a man who finished that year's Giro 8th @ 6 minutes.

This proves nothing, other than highlighting just how good Wiggo was relative to other world class pursuiters, even those with proven GT capabilities.

Food for thought, maybe.
You mean that Giro where everyone was doped to the gills? U mean Wiggo even than had better recovery as to road pro's?

It is fair to say British Cycling has been doped even since 2004 u're saying.
 
May 26, 2010
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Contador is banned.

Schleck injured.

Evans patently below last year's form.

Basso and Scarpo Giro'd out.

Ditto Ryder, even if he hadn't crashed.

JRod didn't enter the Tour; wisely so after the Giro.
And Wiggins who has been winning since the beginning of the season isn't. Wiggins who won Paris_nice, Tour de Romandie, Critérium du Dauphiné and Tour de France in the same season that no other rider ever achieved is somehow given a pass because Contador is banned.

Again this is an insult to the rest of the peloton. It says they are crap. Do you believe the rest of the peloton to be crap?

Wallace and Gromit said:
With the exception of Evans, none of the above had a hope in hell's chance of challenging the Sky guys who were focused specifically on the Tour. It was a very thin field that they beat.

To be pedantic, getting banned or riding the Giro seriously is manifestly and undeniably bad preparation for the Tour!
Even here you say Sky guys! When does a team have 2 challenging for the TdF. Last time that happened it was Hinault and Lemond. Are we suggesting that Wiggins is as good as Hinault and Froome the next Lemond?

And that the rest of the teams didn't focus on the biggest race in the calendar? More insults to the rest of the peloton? Getting Banned? Schleck gets a free pass on the TdF. RSNT are in total meltdown. But Movistar with a 2 Vuelta winners cannot focus or prepare like Sky?

Wow. It seems the other teams dont really care much for cycling or winning. I wonder why they bother turning up?

It seems Sky does everything better than any other team in the history of the sport. We will have to in future call the results 'Before Sky' or 'BS' for short and 'After Sky" 'AS' for short. Bit like the birth of christ. Maybe Wiggins is the second coming, after Armstrong that is:rolleyes:

Get out of your plastecine suit and come back into the real world.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
You mean that Giro where everyone was doped to the gills? U mean Wiggo even than had better recovery as to road pro's?
Not all road pros. Just McGee, who'd featured prominently in the Giro. If he was doped then it makes Wiggo's achievements in 2004 all the more impressive.

The progression of times through the rounds in Athens cannot be argued with: In that even, Wiggo had superior recovery powers to McGee.

If Wiggo was doped in 2004, then doping is not the explanation for his transformation post 2008...
 
Aug 18, 2009
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armchairclimber said:
Yes, I know. A long road to GC contender and winner...coming from a discipline which demands different training emphasis. It's a good job that there are some patient, intelligent folk to guide you through this minefield.
Just don't misrepresent his development as steady and predictable, when he couldn't climb for years and then went top 5 at the Tour.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Not all road pros. Just McGee, who'd featured prominently in the Giro. If he was doped then it makes Wiggo's achievements in 2004 all the more impressive.

The progression of times through the rounds in Athens cannot be argued with: In that even, Wiggo had superior recovery powers to McGee.

If Wiggo was doped in 2004, then doping is not the explanation for his transformation post 2008...
You aren't aware of the fact doping is actually 'he who has the best recovery'?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
Get out of your plastecine suit and come back into the real world.
I've only posted here around 30 times and in at least 10% of those posts I've highlighted that I have suspicions about Sky, so you'll have to be a bit more rational in your responses to my posts I'm afraid.

You asked me if I thought the rest of the peloton had not prepared well. I highlighted that all conceivable GT challengers for the Tour bar Nibs had indeed prepared very badly or were unavailable for combat.

If riders want to do well in the Tour they should not ride the Giro hard, get banned or be injured. That's hardly controversial. Or did you really expect Basso and Scarpo to dish it out to Wiggo after the Giro?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
You aren't aware of the fact doping is actually 'he who has the best recovery'?
Really? Well b*gger me. You learn something every day.

So are you saying Wiggo was doping in 2004? The debate here - in as much as this can be called a debate - relates to Wiggo's transformation post 2008. So if he was doping in 2004, what did he start doing after the Beijing Olympics to move from the autobus to the podium?
 
taiwan said:
Just don't misrepresent his development as steady and predictable, when he couldn't climb for years and then went top 5 at the Tour.
Improvement often isn't steady or predictable. In 2009 he found himself in a good position and hung in there on the climbs. You see it in plenty of sports, athletes suddenly crossing a boundary...."yeah, I can do this". It happens at all levels from juniors upwards. According to the doco, he had a history of self-belief issues.

Mo Farah is a good example. He was good but not world class. He went to Oregon and had a different emphasis placed on his training. He was given all the special equipment (gravity free running machines etc) to increase his mileage AND was made to train for speed. He was told he had to learn how to run the last lap of a 5k in around 52 seconds in order to compete with the best.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Wiggo was a class apart as a pursuiter. For example, he beat McGee by 4 over four seconds in the Athens final, which equates to a 5% power advantage, all other things equal.

In the Athens IP, Wiggo was very consistent through the rounds, doing 4:15 in the qualifying round and 4:16 in the final.

McGee faded from a 4:17 in the qualifying round to over 4:20 in the final, suggesting Wiggo's recovery powers were superior to McGee as well.

So we have someone with more power and better recovery than a man who finished that year's Giro 8th @ 6 minutes.

This proves nothing, other than highlighting just how good Wiggo was relative to other world class pursuiters, even those with proven GT capabilities.

Food for thought, maybe.
If IP is a good predictor of GC success, who's the next rider to cross over successfully in your opinion?

Please explain the presence of 2 such exceptional late flowering GC riders on the same team.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Really? Well b*gger me. You learn something every day.

So are you saying Wiggo was doping in 2004? The debate here - in as much as this can be called a debate - relates to Wiggo's transformation post 2008. So if he was doping in 2004, what did he start doing after the Beijing Olympics to move from the autobus to the podium?
You brought up Wiggo's exceptional recovery in comparison to McGee, a man who finished 8th in a very dirty Giro d'Italia.

What Wiggo did in the winter of 2008-2009 is there for anyone to see. Or did the pro peloton got clean that winter? That's a retorical question. When a 37 year old man will get on the podium of the Tour de France, well...

But with due respect, Wiggo was a good trackie, but is track racing so clean?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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taiwan said:
If IP is a good predictor of GC success, who's the next rider to cross over successfully in your opinion?
I don't think the IP is a good predictor in general. However, winning the Olympics by over 4 seconds over a man with proven GT GC form that same year, whilst riding consistent fast times across the series is probably a pretty decent predictor. The caveat would be if the rider concerned was a sprinter type who could hang on over an IP. Such a rider would not do well in the GC.

Note that I'm not defending Sky per se. As I've psoted elsewhere, Froome is definitely dodgy. I'm just trying to add some objective data to the analysis, so we don't have to rely on missed interviews, swearing and Sky's recruitment policy. (All of which combine to be a tad suspicious, but are p*ss boring to debate, as they are too subjective.)
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
You brought up Wiggo's exceptional recovery in comparison to McGee, a man who finished 8th in a very dirty Giro d'Italia.

What Wiggo did in the winter of 2008-2009 is there for anyone to see. Or did the pro peloton got clean that winter? That's a retorical question. When a 37 year old man will get on the podium of the Tour de France, well...

But with due respect, Wiggo was a good trackie, but is track racing so clean?
By introducing the idea of Wiggo doping in 2004, you open up an interesting can of worms. If you're doping in 2004 and getting the sh*t kicked out of you on the road climbs in 2006, 2007 etc. why leave it to 2008/9 to start doping properly? That's an awful lot of suffering to endure if you have already turned to the Dark Side.

This makes no sense. Wiggo was an afterthought road-wise in 2008. He left High Road after the management told him that their plans for him in 2009 went no further than being in Cav's leadout train, so he's unlikely to have suddenly come across the extra resources in 2008/9 to start doping properly if he'd only been doing "amateur" doping up to then.
 
May 26, 2010
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Wallace and Gromit said:
I've only posted here around 30 times and in at least 10% of those posts I've highlighted that I have suspicions about Sky, so you'll have to be a bit more rational in your responses to my posts I'm afraid.

You asked me if I thought the rest of the peloton had not prepared well. I highlighted that all conceivable GT challengers for the Tour bar Nibs had indeed prepared very badly or were unavailable for combat.

If riders want to do well in the Tour they should not ride the Giro hard, get banned or be injured. That's hardly controversial. Or did you really expect Basso and Scarpo to dish it out to Wiggo after the Giro?
Lotto, how did they prepare badly?

How did Movistar prepare badly?

OPQS how did they prepare badly?

Yet we have Sky/Wiggins blowing all the other GC contenders away all season in the important preparation races for the TdF. No one else able to compete with sky in these races all season long!

I dont expect anyone to dish it out to a team riding like USPS, why would I or anyone else? They have 2 Doctors, to prepare them for the races, who have huge question marks over their careers in the sport.

The sad thing is that Sky thought by telling everyone about their marginal gains, warm downs, attention to the details, blah blah blah would pull the wool over everyone's eyes.

Rational thought is understanding that they talked about not doping then hire doping doctors. Rational thought would make one believe that there is only 1 reason to do that.
 
May 26, 2010
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Wallace and Gromit said:
By introducing the idea of Wiggo doping in 2004, you open up an interesting can of worms. If you're doping in 2004 and getting the sh*t kicked out of you on the road climbs in 2006, 2007 etc. why leave it to 2008/9 to start doping properly? That's an awful lot of suffering to endure if you have already turned to the Dark Side.
Jonathan Vaughters talked about this difference between USPS and Credit Agri.

Credit Agri were not prepared to take huge risks and get caught. USPS had UCI on the payroll and were not going to get caught. Big difference.

Wallace and Gromit said:
This makes no sense. Wiggo was an afterthought road-wise in 2008. He left High Road after the management told him that their plans for him in 2009 went no further than being in Cav's leadout train, so he's unlikely to have suddenly come across the extra resources in 2008/9 to start doping properly if he'd only been doing "amateur" doping up to then.
Well this only begs a bigger question? How come HTC couldn't see Wiggins as a potential TdF winner? Yellow jersey much more valuable then Green.

The difference is teams programs and doctors abilities are massive. You only have to look at the history of GT winners and what doctors they worked with. It also comes down to risks. How big a risk are the team willing to take? How much can they spend on a program? What kind of doctor have they got?
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Wallace and Gromit said:
By introducing the idea of Wiggo doping in 2004, you open up an interesting can of worms. If you're doping in 2004 and getting the sh*t kicked out of you on the road climbs in 2006, 2007 etc. why leave it to 2008/9 to start doping properly? That's an awful lot of suffering to endure if you have already turned to the Dark Side.
I'm not saying he WAS doping in 2004, I'm only pointing out his great recovery [doping=recovery] in comparison to Brad M. who came in 8th in a less than clean Giro.

The Wiggo of your years was 11 kilo heavier, without the best EPO all the time you cannot compete with that weight.

Wallace and Gromit said:
This makes no sense. Wiggo was an afterthought road-wise in 2008. He left High Road after the management told him that their plans for him in 2009 went no further than being in Cav's leadout train, so he's unlikely to have suddenly come across the extra resources in 2008/9 to start doping properly if he'd only been doing "amateur" doping up to then.
Maybe he geared up after he saw idiots like Kohl and Schumacher do the miracle dance?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
Lotto, how did they prepare badly?

How did Movistar prepare badly?

OPQS how did they prepare badly?
Lotto didn't do too badly. Van den Brouke was well placed in the GC and Griepel's leadout train functioned well. They prepared well, and there's no shame in VDB being bested by Wiggo, particularly as he lost a couple of minutes on the stage to Belle Fille through a mechanical.

Movistar - No idea. I fancy they will be competitive for the Vuelta.

OPQS are built round Boonen (who didn't enter the Tour but had a stellar Classics campaign) and Martin (who got injured), so wouldn't expect to fare well in the GC irrespective of their preparation.
 

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