Wiggins in clean tour win shocker?

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Apr 20, 2012
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Lordy. This is hard work...

For the last time, I'm not defending Sky, Wiggins or anybody. I'm simply pointing out that Wiggo has demonstrably superior aerobic capabilities and recovery powers than McGee based on their 2004 Olympic IP performances and asking why these capabilities and power could not transfer to GTs for Wiggo, when they clearly did for McGee.

Wiggo's current form might have come out of a medicine cabinet, but you are being completely unconditional in stating that it does. Thus, it falls to you to explain why Wiggo couldn't demonstrate a similar level of GT performance to McGee in cycling terms. You've concluded it isn't possible. Please explain why.
You are comparing a Giro where Sergei Gonchar ended up second to a Tour de France win?

I am not saying you are defending Sky, you believe or seem to believe Wiggo's transformation. I don't.

For your info:
http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/voorloopfiche.php?wedstrijdvoorloopid=191
Wallace and Gromit said:
Great. The standard fallback position of those who can't construct an objective argument - ask how long the other poster has been following road racing. Since 1982 as it happens and I didn't see the 2004 Giro as my second daughter had just arrived and we were in the throes of moving house, so apologies for resorting to a bit of Googling to confirm McGee's performances. I did, however, see ever pedal rev of the IP later that year.
You shouldn't make the comparison then, totally incomparible. No offence intended and congrats with the kid ;)

For your info, I didn't see the IP because I have no intrest in BC ;)
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
You shouldn't make the comparison then, totally incomparible. No offence intended and congrats with the kid ;)
Thanks. T'was a long time ago, and she now keeps asking if I'd beat "Wiggins Boy" (as she calls him, for some reason) if we went mano-a-mano.

Re the 2004 Giro, wasn't that the one with about 20 sprint stages for Petacchi to win? ;)

Not a course for the mountain goat, to be sure, but the top 6 did include Cunego, Simoni and Garzelli, so there was some decent GT material in there. Plus, this year's Tour wasn't exactly the toughest, talent-loaded event there's ever been. I doubt Wiggo would have done much spectacular if Berto and Schleck had been in the field and the route had been a lot more mountainous. Froome on the other hand...
 
Oct 18, 2010
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Originally Posted by Bertie
He has always been one of the best TTers in the world, and he's simply gone from a good climber to a very good climber by extra training and a focus on weight.

This is complete and utter crap. Wiggins was never one of the best TTers in the world. He never won a long time trial until this month. His climbing was on the level of Ivan Quaranta.

BroDeal, you nailed nothing with this statement. If you can identify when he has been way down the order in TT at a world level you might have a point, but here are the facts:

2000 to 2008 he was primarily a track guy, winning 6 world champs and 3 olympic golds, including pursuit. The pursuit is an endurance based event more than sprinting, and he was the best in the world. When he turned his attentions to the road, he immediately posted results in TT's, like twice running British Champion, 4th in Prologue at the TDF, Top 4 in worlds (might have been second if not for his bike breaking). In fact you may also remember in his first ever TDF in 2006, he almost survived a 100 mile solo breakaway. You cannot achieve all of the above unless you are a seriously world class TT talent, of which he has always been. No results suggest otherwise. I see his climbing as only slightly improved from his TDF of three years ago, and this years course was kind to him.

He's the real deal guys, deal with it. You have zero evidence to suspect otherwise, and he's been in this sport long time.
 
May 26, 2010
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Individual pursuit is short endurance in track racing. It is hardly a 3000kms long GT endurance and no way can you compare what someone has done in a velodrome to what someone shows they are capable on the road.

2km and 4km pursuits show the potential to be the second best climber in the Tour de France never mind win it?

Sorry that is like saying Armstrong was a great Tri-athelte in his teens therefore it stands to reason he would win 7 TdFs in a row.

Can we stop with the track BS. Otherwsie TeamGB has all the winners for all the next road races for the next 10 years right there in their stable. Hoy for Paris Roubaix anyone?
 
Oct 18, 2010
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And the TDF is not a 3000 km endurance event. It is about 2,700 km of spinning, 200 km of climbing and 100 km of TT. If it were an endurance event you wouldnt have cavendish contest the sprints after 200 km of racing.
 
May 26, 2010
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Bertie said:
And the TDF is not a 3000 km endurance event. It is about 2,700 km of spinning, 200 km of climbing and 100 km of TT. If it were an endurance event you wouldnt have cavendish contest the sprints after 200 km of racing.
Sure, that is why they dope.

Maybe Brailsfords spinnig class experience is the magic marginal gains that made all the difference and beat the dopers. Now it all makes perfect sense.
 
Benotti69 said:
Calling out the clinic as unsound is as bad as Wiggins labelling anyone questioning his performance as F****** W****** and C****.


So it you feel this way why stay?

There is irrefutable fact in Wiggins win. He did it with the help of 2 doctors of huge questionable cleanliness in sporting circles. There is no other reason to hire these doctors except for their ability to run doping programs.
Frankly he was probably right on the mark with his assessment of keyboard warriors...so I'd say "just as sound".
Why stay? I'll hang around to make it better. It would be rude leave it up to the likes of Master Racer on his own. Some posters in this tiny corner of the interweb have tried to validate themselves by screaming "moider moider"....maybe someone should be around to take the ****. KnowarrImeanlike?

And, by the way, even Wiggins being clean will not mean anything at all if just one of his Tour team has taken PEDs/juiced on the tour. It will in my eyes invalidate everything he has achieved this year.
 
Oct 30, 2011
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Bertie said:
And the TDF is not a 3000 km endurance event. It is about 2,700 km of spinning, 200 km of climbing and 100 km of TT. If it were an endurance event you wouldnt have cavendish contest the sprints after 200 km of racing.
What were KBK, Scheldeprijs, Milano-Sanremo and the Worlds, then, more spinning?
 
May 26, 2010
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armchairclimber said:
<insulting>

Why stay? I'll hang around to make it better. It would be rude leave it up to the likes of Master Racer on his own. Some posters in this tiny corner of the interweb have tried to validate themselves by screaming "moider moider"....maybe someone should be around to take the ****. KnowarrImeanlike?

And, by the way, even Wiggins being clean will not mean anything at all if just one of his Tour team has taken PEDs/juiced on the tour. It will in my eyes invalidate everything he has achieved this year.
I dont approve of you insinuating that people in here are what Wiggins thinks of them.

In 2007 Wiggns whistled a tune exactly the same as the clinic.

The use of doping doctors invalidated everything sky has done to date. That Brailsford has gone to these lengths also invalidates what they did on the track.
 
Apr 17, 2010
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Really, trying to compare rider A to rider B to conclude rider A doped is pretty useless. Way too many variables involved.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
Especially with Geert Leinders on your team?
Now here's a question for you...

Prior to autumn 2006, Rebecca Romero had never raced on a bike, let alone shown any potential. Yet within around 18 months, she was World and Olympic champion in the IP, aged circa 28.

Is this indicative of doping?

And another one for you...

Clara Hughes was an international road cyclist throughout the 1990s, winning 2 bronze medals in the Atlanta OGs. She then switched to speed skating, aged 28, winning a further bronze medal in the 2002 Salt Lake City Winter OGs.

Is this indicative of doping?

Both these cases involve people who switched to a sport and quickly achieved success at the highest level, despite switching in their late 20s, having clearly not displayed potential at that level in their new sport before.

In both cases, I would say not, as both ladies had demonstrated world class performance at aerobic events before, and had what it took to transfer that performance to other events, despite their different demands. (In Hughes' case, from weight supported to weight supporting, and from several hours duration to a few minutes duration.)

That's not to say that all rowers can become top quality cyclists or cyclists become top quality skaters, but there's sufficient people who've transferred their skills to make Wiggo's transfer - which is from one type of endurance cyling to another, so much less extreme than either Romero or Hughes - within the bounds of possibility.

You could add Sheila Young and Christa Rothenburger to the list of those who've succeeded in two different sports, though at the sprint end of things.

Conversely, Chris Hoy becoming a world class IP rider would be deeply suspicious, even though he's already a trackie, as he's a sprinter and the IP is an endurance event.
 
May 26, 2010
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Now here's a question for you...

<snip>
I repeat;

The use of doping doctors invalidated everything sky has done to date. That Brailsford has gone to these lengths also invalidates everything they did on the track.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Bertie said:
Originally Posted by Bertie
He has always been one of the best TTers in the world, and he's simply gone from a good climber to a very good climber by extra training and a focus on weight.

This is complete and utter crap. Wiggins was never one of the best TTers in the world. He never won a long time trial until this month. His climbing was on the level of Ivan Quaranta.

BroDeal, you nailed nothing with this statement. If you can identify when he has been way down the order in TT at a world level you might have a point, but here are the facts:

2000 to 2008 he was primarily a track guy, winning 6 world champs and 3 olympic golds, including pursuit. The pursuit is an endurance based event more than sprinting, and he was the best in the world. When he turned his attentions to the road, he immediately posted results in TT's, like twice running British Champion, 4th in Prologue at the TDF, Top 4 in worlds (might have been second if not for his bike breaking). In fact you may also remember in his first ever TDF in 2006, he almost survived a 100 mile solo breakaway. You cannot achieve all of the above unless you are a seriously world class TT talent, of which he has always been. No results suggest otherwise. I see his climbing as only slightly improved from his TDF of three years ago, and this years course was kind to him.

He's the real deal guys, deal with it. You have zero evidence to suspect otherwise, and he's been in this sport long time.
Really though, until 2009 he didn't show GT potential. When you're citing the British nats TT, Tour prologue and a solo breakaway for support, you're clutching at straws. His IP results don't make him a GC contender either, though it's easy to see his potential after the fact.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Wallace and Gromit said:
The issue is more complicated than simply considering the chances of "a pursuiter" being good at GTs, as crudely speaking, there are two types of pursuiter.

Many team pursuiters are nowadays very good sprinters, or at least are clearly endowed with a lot of fast twitch fibres...


The Boardman / Obree type of pursuiter is much rarer. If Boardman had been French, Italian or Spanish, I doubt he's ever have become a pursuiter. As a youngster, he'd have taken up road racing as that is the normal route for such an athlete to take.
IP and TP are not the same event. They're not even that close. If you look at the guys who excel at IP, they're also long course TT champions, almost without exception. You don't see sprinters like Renshaw excelling in long TT's. Sure, some guys excel in both IP and TP, but the best IP guys are almost always great individual TT guys as well.

Bottom line, pedalpusher's comments are way off base. I agree that some pursuiters have higher anaerobic capacity than others, but to have continued success at IP is indicative of high pVo2 power, which one of the big requirements of a successful road cyclists. All that said, it would appear that it's taken "medical supervision" from established doping doctors to get him to his best. It's hard to get past that one.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
I repeat;

The use of doping doctors invalidated everything sky has done to date. That Brailsford has gone to these lengths also invalidates everything they did on the track.
OK. That makes sense. You're not interested in a sensible debate about physiological characteristics and likely transferrability between different disciplines. I'd foolishly mistaken you for someone who was.

Why do you bother following cycling? Given its murky history, I can't imagine that anyone is more than two steps removed from a dodgy doctor, which presumably invalidates everything everyone has done!
 
Wallace and Gromit said:
Now here's a question for you...

Prior to autumn 2006, Rebecca Romero had never raced on a bike, let alone shown any potential. Yet within around 18 months, she was World and Olympic champion in the IP, aged circa 28.

Is this indicative of doping?

And another one for you...

Clara Hughes was an international road cyclist throughout the 1990s, winning 2 bronze medals in the Atlanta OGs. She then switched to speed skating, aged 28, winning a further bronze medal in the 2002 Salt Lake City Winter OGs.

Is this indicative of doping?

Both these cases involve people who switched to a sport and quickly achieved success at the highest level, despite switching in their late 20s, having clearly not displayed potential at that level in their new sport before.

In both cases, I would say not, as both ladies had demonstrated world class performance at aerobic events before, and had what it took to transfer that performance to other events, despite their different demands. (In Hughes' case, from weight supported to weight supporting, and from several hours duration to a few minutes duration.)

That's not to say that all rowers can become top quality cyclists or cyclists become top quality skaters, but there's sufficient people who've transferred their skills to make Wiggo's transfer - which is from one type of endurance cyling to another, so much less extreme than either Romero or Hughes - within the bounds of possibility.

You could add Sheila Young and Christa Rothenburger to the list of those who've succeeded in two different sports, though at the sprint end of things.

Conversely, Chris Hoy becoming a world class IP rider would be deeply suspicious, even though he's already a trackie, as he's a sprinter and the IP is an endurance event.
Another, Steve Backley went from decent 800 metre runner to world class javelin chucker in just a few seasons.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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armchairclimber said:
Another, Steve Backley went from decent 800 metre runner to world class javelin chucker in just a few seasons.
800m and javelin - no way those events are comparable. It's not a matter of the underlying physiological demands in that case.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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armchairclimber said:
Another, Steve Backley went from decent 800 metre runner to world class javelin chucker in just a few seasons.
800m and javelin - no way those events are comparable. It's not a matter of the underlying physiological demands in that case.

I don't really see how IP preeminence makes to a good candidate to become an elite climber either, as it's governed by different characteristics. AND now that I think about it the link between recovery over a few days of 4' races and 21 days x 6 hours is not a credible one.
 
taiwan said:
I don't really see how IP preeminence makes to a good candidate to become an elite climber either, as it's governed by different characteristics. AND now that I think about it the link between recovery over a few days of 4' races and 21 days x 6 hours is not a credible one.
As you so rightly pointed out, preeminence at 800m doesn't make a good candidate for the Javelin. It didn't stop Steve Backley though.

He didn't know he had potential until he tried. Then he had to train with "specificity" (a coaching buzz word) in mind. It's not a difficult thought process this, honestly.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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taiwan said:
800m and javelin - no way those events are comparable. It's not a matter of the underlying physiological demands in that case.
I'd tend to agree with that. I'd say he was just annoyingly good at lots of sports as a youngster. As he was a world class javelin thrower in his late teens/early 20s, his 800m days must have been when he was a teenager.

Off-topic a bit, but the East Germans were very good at spotting potential and directing it effectively. I know the athlete were doped to the eyeballs, but within East Germany, one can realistically assume some degree of equal access! There were plenty of examples of average East Germans in one sport being redirected to another and becoming world class, where the change in relative performance level was down to physiological attributes not doping per se.

They looked at ratios of limb length, and muscle types amongst other things no doubt. For example, swimmers tend to have relatively short legs whilst rowers tend to have relatively long ones. There were apparently a few long legged teenage swimmers who hit greater heights in rowing once they'd been swapped over. I don't think it worked the other way, as rowing technique is easier to learn than swimming technique.
 
May 26, 2009
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Can I just ask the Brad/British apologists this, if a Wiggins was from another country, say Spain for example, and his career followed the same 'progression', would you all be in here calling him a doper?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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BYOP88 said:
Can I just ask the Brad/British apologists this, if a Wiggins was from another country, say Spain for example, and his career followed the same 'progression', would you all be in here calling him a doper?
No. I always argue the side of the accused. It's more interesting and it incites a greater depth of response from those on the other side of the argument. If we all just shout "doper" all the time, it gets rather tedious, as we end of slapping each other on our virtual backs and calling each other damn fine fellows for being so insightful!
 
May 26, 2009
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Wallace and Gromit said:
No. I always argue the side of the accused. It's more interesting and it incites a greater depth of response from those on the other side of the argument. If we all just shout "doper" all the time, it gets rather tedious, as we end of slapping each other on our virtual backs and calling each other damn fine fellows for being so insightful!
You must be one of the last few on the good ship Armstrong :eek: It's not to late, there are a few lifeboats left!:D
 

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