Wiggins in clean tour win shocker?

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Bertie said:
He has always been one of the best TTers in the world, and he's simply gone from a good climber to a very good climber by extra training and a focus on weight.
This is complete and utter crap. Wiggins was never one of the best TTers in the world. He never won a long time trial until this month. His climbing was on the level of Ivan Quaranta.

The revisionist lies begin.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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People with nothing to hide are not defensive. They explain their innocence in detail, calmly, including all pertinent facts. They are willing to repeat the story and do so without contradictory statements.

Perhaps that since cycling has had so few, if any clean winners in the recent history, we forget the body language of such.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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BroDeal said:
This is complete and utter crap. Wiggins was never one of the best TTers in the world. He never won a long time trial until this month. His climbing was on the level of Ivan Quaranta.

The revisionist lies begin.
I starting typing such but stopped!
 
Bertie said:
I think Wiggo is clean as a whistle, and always has been. There is nothing to suggest otherwise, and never has been. He has always been one of the best TTers in the world, and he's simply gone from a good climber to a very good climber by extra training and a focus on weight. Add to this the brilliant attention to detail by Brailsford on the technical aspect of the sport (aero/weight etc.) and throwing money at a team enabling it to focus on support in the mountains, the emphasis on TT's in this tour and the absence of Contador and Shleck and his performance this year is really not that surprising.
BroDeal already nailed it on this one. You see, the problem with your post is your starting platform is just plain incorrect. Can't really go anywhere after that :eek:
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Advancedone said:
Absolutely.

I agree it may sound far fetched but hey, if people were accusing me of something I didn't do then I'd be more than happy to do whatever to shut them up.

Even Mr Armstrong should do it if he is so adamant that he was clean. Of course he never will, he's condemned himself to taking his dirty secrects to his grave, even if everyone else is happy to share them.:D

Instead of spitting the dummy and swearing at people Wiggins could calmly and rationally shut them up by this one simple process.

It would turn me from a doubter into a believer, however I'm sure I'll remain a doubter.
The fact is that polygraphs, the more proper word for a "lie detector" simply aren't very reliable, more than 50% sure, but far, far less than 100% (ETA: "A 1997 survey of 421 psychologists estimated the test's average accuracy at about 61%, a little better than chance." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph#Validity). There's a reason that most countries don't even use them in courts, hell only a minority of American states use them according to wikipedia.

If polygraphs actually worked half as well as you seem to think, anybody innocent could simply offer to take one and be cleared, the way DNA test who are in fact near 100% accurate are often used. This is not reality however. You should not be suspicious of Wiggins, simply because he hasn't offered to undergo a process with a significant false positive rate, and you shouldn't become a believer simply because he passed a process with a significant false negative rate.
 
Jun 18, 2012
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Bertie said:
I think Wiggo is clean as a whistle, and always has been. There is nothing to suggest otherwise, and never has been. He has always been one of the best TTers in the world, and he's simply gone from a good climber to a very good climber by extra training and a focus on weight. Add to this the brilliant attention to detail by Brailsford on the technical aspect of the sport (aero/weight etc.) and throwing money at a team enabling it to focus on support in the mountains, the emphasis on TT's in this tour and the absence of Contador and Shleck and his performance this year is really not that surprising.
Bunk. Let's see, went from track pursuit guy, basically a long sprint, fast twitch muscle guy, to a slow twitch endurance guy (climber, ITT). Lost around 30 pounds but doesn't seemed phased in power output?

So in other endurance sports terms, went from being the worlds best 5k runner, to the worlds best marathon runner? Not happening, no way, never has. Two completely different physiological make ups.


BEATS the best TT rider in the world not barely, but by a minute! And Froome also! Where did he come from?

There is about a 1% margin in the pro peloton, so how is a guy beating all the top guys which some are doping and not be doping? Spout all the BS numbers, watts, blood values, yada, yada, chefs ( most teams have chefs at the tour if not all), Tenerife, swim coach, train harder...doesn't make up for the fact he went from a completely different human species to another. Never happened in the history of sports drug free.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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PedalPusher said:
Bunk. Let's see, went from track pursuit guy, basically a long sprint, fast twitch muscle guy, to a slow twitch endurance guy (climber, ITT). Lost around 30 pounds but doesn't seemed phased in power output?

So in other endurance sports terms, went from being the worlds best 5k runner, to the worlds best marathon runner? Not happening, no way, never has. Two completely different physiological make ups.
You mean like famous fast-twitch guys like Boardman and Obree? Um....OK....

You couldn't be more wrong on the physiological aspect of the pursuit, or the 5,000 meters. Have you ever actually seen the body type of a 5K runner? Keep in mind, the best US marathoner was an NCAA 5K champion. 1,500 meter guys are typically fast in 5K and have marathon potential as well. In short, you're WAY off base on this one.

As far as the pursuit, it's very simply a matter of power @ vo2/drag. Some of the best grand tour riders have had success @ the pursuit (Coppi, Anquetil and Moser to name a few). The reason you don't see more recent grand tour riders do well in the pursuit is very simple: they don't do it. I have no doubt LeMond and Hinault would have dominated the event if they chose to do it. That said, success in pursuit doesn't necessarily equate to grand tour success, but it's not a bad indicator either. But it's one small part of the puzzle. Saying it's a "long sprint" belies a very basic understanding of the event, and the demands of endurance cycling.
 
131313 said:
You mean like famous fast-twitch guys like Boardman and Obree? Um....OK....

You couldn't be more wrong on the physiological aspect of the pursuit, or the 5,000 meters. Have you ever actually seen the body type of a 5K runner? Keep in mind, the best US marathoner was an NCAA 5K champion. 1,500 meter guys are typically fast in 5K and have marathon potential as well. In short, you're WAY off base on this one.

As far as the pursuit, it's very simply a matter of power @ vo2/drag. Some of the best grand tour riders have had success @ the pursuit (Coppi, Anquetil and Moser to name a few). The reason you don't see more recent grand tour riders do well in the pursuit is very simple: they don't do it. I have no doubt LeMond and Hinault would have dominated the event if they chose to do it. That said, success in pursuit doesn't necessarily equate to grand tour success, but it's not a bad indicator either. But it's one small part of the puzzle. Saying it's a "long sprint" belies a very basic understanding of the event, and the demands of endurance cycling.
Good points.

Actually, I believe a fair number of 5km runners "make their way up" to the marathon as they get more miles in their legs and lose some of their speed.

There are loads of issues around Sky and there are issues I have with Wiggo's progressions. However, using the fact that a pursuit rider cannot become a GT rider does not really make sense.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Ripper said:
Good points.

Actually, I believe a fair number of 5km runners "make their way up" to the marathon as they get more miles in their legs and lose some of their speed.
HA, Lagat's been threatening to go up for the last 20 years! Dude's gonna be winning the Senior Olympic marathon at this point.

Ripper said:
There are loads of issues around Sky and there are issues I have with Wiggo's progressions. However, using the fact that a pursuit rider cannot become a GT rider does not really make sense.
Agree, totally. Like doing all of the stuff that Wiggins himself called out years ago (hiring dodgy doctors and directors for a start).
 
Jun 18, 2012
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131313 said:
You mean like famous fast-twitch guys like Boardman and Obree? Um....OK....

You couldn't be more wrong on the physiological aspect of the pursuit, or the 5,000 meters. Have you ever actually seen the body type of a 5K runner? Keep in mind, the best US marathoner was an NCAA 5K champion. 1,500 meter guys are typically fast in 5K and have marathon potential as well. In short, you're WAY off base on this one.

As far as the pursuit, it's very simply a matter of power @ vo2/drag. Some of the best grand tour riders have had success @ the pursuit (Coppi, Anquetil and Moser to name a few). The reason you don't see more recent grand tour riders do well in the pursuit is very simple: they don't do it. I have no doubt LeMond and Hinault would have dominated the event if they chose to do it. That said, success in pursuit doesn't necessarily equate to grand tour success, but it's not a bad indicator either. But it's one small part of the puzzle. Saying it's a "long sprint" belies a very basic understanding of the event, and the demands of endurance cycling.

Fair enough, bad analogy, but wasn't trying to be technical. Track pursuit is still power over endurance. Wiggo a great classics guy? Could totally believe that. GC nah, and none of my pursuit friends agree either, and they were all very competitive at different times nationally. Maybe a better comparison would be sprinter 400m ...irrelevant.

I assume you were talking about Frank Shorter, anyway. You're talking about power to sustain a littler over 4-41/2 minutes. That type of athlete does not translate well to GCGT contender. Yes some have done it, but drug free?

I and my long time friends have been around these power and endurance disciplines for over 30 years. We were talking about it today actually, that's why I posted to begin with. And they were all competitive riders and runners on national levels. None of my pursuit friends agree with pursuit to GC.

The only reason people buy this mantra of track to GC is because people have spewed long enough. GC to track? No qualms there.

It was only opinions by some, that somehow a dominant rider at a 2.48 mile/4:12 race translates to GT GC contender. And people believed it, and repeat it, over and over. And they just keep adding more obfuscation to it. Watts, vo2, weight, blah,blah.

When Usain Bolt wins 20 marathons over twenty two days after winning the 400m. And drop 30 pounds! I'll believe Sir Wiggo's transformation, not alone the sustained power outputs day in and day out! And speaking of, does that, then kicks Fabian's @** in the TT? Then crushes it in the TT at the end after riding at the front the entire time?

Whatever, it's all speculation, no one knows for sure. Have fun boys!


:D Yes I am being incredibly over generalized and cheeky!:)
 
Mar 22, 2011
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PedalPusher said:
You're talking about power to sustain a littler over 4-41/2 minutes. That type of athlete does not translate well to GCGT contender. Yes some have done it, but drug
The key here is the time duration for the pursuit which corresponds with Vo2max and the resultant peak power output and of course vo2max is a key component of world class GC guys.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Advancedone said:
Absolutely.

I agree it may sound far fetched but hey, if people were accusing me of something I didn't do then I'd be more than happy to do whatever to shut them up.

Even Mr Armstrong should do it if he is so adamant that he was clean. Of course he never will, he's condemned himself to taking his dirty secrects to his grave, even if everyone else is happy to share them.:D

Instead of spitting the dummy and swearing at people Wiggins could calmly and rationally shut them up by this one simple process.

It would turn me from a doubter into a believer, however I'm sure I'll remain a doubter.
Well, unfortunately he can't. Because lie detectors are no useful means to catch a liar. Oh if it was that simple. There is no reliable physiological correlate of lying that you can just go and measure.
 
Jul 9, 2012
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Advancedone said:
Do you think Wiggins would be prepared to take a lie detector test to prove to all us f#####g w#####s that he won clean?

I don't think so.

I know for a fact that if I was clean I'd be prepared to do whatever it takes to prove once and for all that I was clean, even taking a lie detector test.

Some are saying that you cant prove that you are riding clean, maybe this is a simple way to put it to bed.

If your already one of the most tested riders what's one more simple test.
Don't you think that would be a bit much? If we start doing stuff like that, where do we stop?
 
Jul 19, 2010
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cineteq said:
I'm willing to give Wiggins a pass because of his track record, weight loss and progression.
weight loss - why do you think Contador was taking clenbuterol?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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131313 said:
You mean like famous fast-twitch guys like Boardman and Obree? Um....OK....
The issue is more complicated than simply considering the chances of "a pursuiter" being good at GTs, as crudely speaking, there are two types of pursuiter.

Many team pursuiters are nowadays very good sprinters, or at least are clearly endowed with a lot of fast twitch fibres. In the GB squad, Clancy and Burke are both at the short 62s level for the kilo, and Clancy doesn't lose much in the Omnium speed events to Viviani, who is a decent sprinter on the road. Of the GB guys who didn't make the cut, Queally's record as a track sprinter and Swift's record as a road sprinter need no further elaboration.

Lots of Aussie world-class team pursuiters eg Renshaw, Goss, Lancaster etc. have transferred these skills to a similar level of performance on the road, though primarily as lead-out men rather than sprinters.

Indeed, the speed requirements of the TP are such that I understand that Camerom Meyer didn't make the cut for the Aussie Olympic squad due to not being able to get up to the required cruising speed quickly enough, despite being dominant in the points race.

The Boardman / Obree type of pursuiter is much rarer. If Boardman had been French, Italian or Spanish, I doubt he's ever have become a pursuiter. As a youngster, he'd have taken up road racing as that is the normal route for such an athlete to take.

In the UK, continental tyle road racing doesn't really happen, so such athletes go down the TT and track route, so the "large engined, slow-twitch" pursuiter does turn up relatively more in the UK than in Europe. However, given the close links between the track and road scenes in the UK and Australia, there might be a few more pursuiter/GT types emerging.

Geraint Thomas and Pete Kennaugh are obvious candidates in the UK, though given the demise of the IP and the speed (and muscle type) requirements of the TP, there won't be many.

As an aside, what is the forum view as to how Boardman would have performed in the Tour in 1996 in a clean peloton? Assuming he was clean himself, then 39th, @88 minutes against Riis, Ullrich and other EPO enhanced machines was pretty darned impressive in my view.

As another aside, I'd agree that any top quality TT merchant in GTs would be good - though not necessarily Boardman type good - in the IP if they trained properly for it. Even seasoned pursuiters such as Geraint Thomas struggle with the leg-speed requirements of the pursuit after a spell of road racing, so a traditional roadie couldn't just turn up and expect to do well in an IP.
 
Jun 18, 2012
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Wallace and Gromit said:
The issue is more complicated than simply considering the chances of "a pursuiter" being good at GTs, as crudely speaking, there are two types of pursuiter.

Many team pursuiters are nowadays very good sprinters, or at least are clearly endowed with a lot of fast twitch fibres. In the GB squad, Clancy and Burke are both at the short 62s level for the kilo, and Clancy doesn't lose much in the Omnium speed events to Viviani, who is a decent sprinter on the road. Of the GB guys who didn't make the cut, Queally's record as a track sprinter and Swift's record as a road sprinter need no further elaboration.

Lots of Aussie world-class team pursuiters eg Renshaw, Goss, Lancaster etc. have transferred these skills to a similar level of performance on the road, though primarily as lead-out men rather than sprinters.

Indeed, the speed requirements of the TP are such that I understand that Camerom Meyer didn't make the cut for the Aussie Olympic squad due to not being able to get up to the required cruising speed quickly enough, despite being dominant in the points race.

The Boardman / Obree type of pursuiter is much rarer. If Boardman had been French, Italian or Spanish, I doubt he's ever have become a pursuiter. As a youngster, he'd have taken up road racing as that is the normal route for such an athlete to take.

In the UK, continental tyle road racing doesn't really happen, so such athletes go down the TT and track route, so the "large engined, slow-twitch" pursuiter does turn up relatively more in the UK than in Europe. However, given the close links between the track and road scenes in the UK and Australia, there might be a few more pursuiter/GT types emerging.

Geraint Thomas and Pete Kennaugh are obvious candidates in the UK, though given the demise of the IP and the speed (and muscle type) requirements of the TP, there won't be many.

As an aside, what is the forum view as to how Boardman would have performed in the Tour in 1996 in a clean peloton? Assuming he was clean himself, then 39th, @88 minutes against Riis, Ullrich and other EPO enhanced machines was pretty darned impressive in my view.

As another aside, I'd agree that any top quality TT merchant in GTs would be good - though not necessarily Boardman type good - in the IP if they trained properly for it. Even seasoned pursuiters such as Geraint Thomas struggle with the leg-speed requirements of the pursuit after a spell of road racing, so a traditional roadie couldn't just turn up and expect to do well in an IP.
Thank you, spot on. Brain too tired to get into the intricacies of it all. Breaking down this rider and that rider..mind warp. Good assessment.
 
Physiologically Wiggins is an endurance athlete. If there is an anomaly or unusual progression, it's the 4k career that is the aberration. You can see by the way he rides the mountains that his muscle composition is largely slow twitch. He has though got sufficient basic speed to make him formidable over a range of distances.
If you are talking about endurance runners, the likes of Bekele and Farrah can run 200 metres at the end of a 5k faster than pretty much anybody on this forum can sprint.


Wiggins just happens to be an outstanding athlete who was extremely well prepared for this particular task.
The fact that he won so easily is down to thinness of the opposition and the favorable parcourse.
 
May 26, 2010
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Bertie said:
I think Wiggo is clean as a whistle, and always has been. There is nothing to suggest otherwise, and never has been. He has always been one of the best TTers in the world, and he's simply gone from a good climber to a very good climber by extra training and a focus on weight. Add to this the brilliant attention to detail by Brailsford on the technical aspect of the sport (aero/weight etc.) and throwing money at a team enabling it to focus on support in the mountains, the emphasis on TT's in this tour and the absence of Contador and Shleck and his performance this year is really not that surprising.
BroDeal nailed it with is response.
 
May 26, 2010
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armchairclimber said:
<snip>


Wiggins just happens to be an outstanding athlete who was extremely well prepared for this particular task.
The fact that he won so easily is down to thinness of the opposition and the favorable parcourse.
The fact that he never performed well like natural GT riders when he first rode the race as a youngster is down to him being a boneidle F****** W***** i suppose. I suppose TJVG is not a natural GT performer cause he cant be at his age. It is something to mature and progress into like Wiggins;)

Nope dont buy it.

Wiggins in his interviews in 2007 never said that he should train harder or that he didn't prepare properly for the race.

That he has somehow discovered how to do this with Garmin and now Sky(inc their 2 doping doctors) is down to all the PR bluff we are hearing? Maybe for 'there is one born everday' category!

Amazing how Wiggins/Sky are the only guys this season who have prepared properly for each race. What have all the other being doing? Sitting at home watching TV? What an insult to all the other riders in the pro peloton
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
The fact that he never performed well like natural GT riders when he first rode the race as a youngster is down to him being a boneidle F****** W***** i suppose.
Perhaps you should estimate the power that a guy who can ride 4k in 4:15 might be able to sustain over longer distances and see how that compares to current climbing performances of other riders.

I suspect you'll find that such pursuiting performance needs a mighty big engine, from where you can then start considering why said engine might not be functional over a three week race when trained specifically to do so.
 
Benotti69 said:
The fact that he never performed well like natural GT riders when he first rode the race as a youngster is down to him being a boneidle F****** W***** i suppose. I suppose TJVG is not a natural GT performer cause he cant be at his age. It is something to mature and progress into like Wiggins;)

Nope dont buy it.

Wiggins in his interviews in 2007 never said that he should train harder or that he didn't prepare properly for the race.

That he has somehow discovered how to do this with Garmin and now Sky(inc their 2 doping doctors) is down to all the PR bluff we are hearing? Maybe for 'there is one born everday' category!

Amazing how Wiggins/Sky are the only guys this season who have prepared properly for each race. What have all the other being doing? Sitting at home watching TV? What an insult to all the other riders in the pro peloton
Actually, he performed like a newbie who didn't have anywhere near the aerobic endurance background to be a GC contender, nor the belief that he could be a GC contender. He was poorly prepared.

He hasn't transformed himself overnight and SKY have taken at least a couple of years to improve their training and physical preparation.

He has always been an exceptionally talented athlete, he just hasn't always had the preparation or team around him to win a GT. The progression from 4th with Garmin to podium in the 2011 vuelta to winner of the TDF is not that exceptional or meteoric.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
Amazing how Wiggins/Sky are the only guys this season who have prepared properly for each race. What have all the other being doing?
Contador is banned.

Schleck injured.

Evans patently below last year's form.

Basso and Scarpo Giro'd out.

Ditto Ryder, even if he hadn't crashed.

JRod didn't enter the Tour; wisely so after the Giro.

With the exception of Evans, none of the above had a hope in hell's chance of challenging the Sky guys who were focused specifically on the Tour. It was a very thin field that they beat.

To be pedantic, getting banned or riding the Giro seriously is manifestly and undeniably bad preparation for the Tour!
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Wallace and Gromit said:
I suspect you'll find that such pursuiting performance needs a mighty big engine, from where you can then start considering why said engine might not be functional over a three week race when trained specifically to do so.
You make it sound so simple, yet there are no precedents for the IPWC and Tour wins, and few for stage races in general.
 

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