Wiggins in clean tour win shocker?

Page 11 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Boeing said:
the discovery?

chimp paradox: Brainsford brought in Dr Steve Peters to mind mold success in training. Apparently training puts the body and mind in constant stress and no team has ever tried to manage this stress in training day in and day out.

team Sky has gone where no cycling team has gone before. They have learned to manage the chimp inside each rider.

http://www.chimpparadox.co.uk/
---------------------------------------
Do you sometimes behave irrationally or impulsively? Do you face some situations with fear and trepidation? Do feelings of self-doubt consume everyday activities?

Leading Consultant Psychiatrist, Dr Steve Peters, knows more than anyone how impulsive behaviour or nagging self-doubt can impact negatively on our professional and personal lives.

In this, his first book, Steve shares his phenomenally successful mind management programme that has been used to help elite athletes and senior managers alike to conquer their fears and operate with greater control, focus and confidence.

Seemingly complex concepts are made simple with the use of memorable analogies — such as the ‘chimp’, that seemingly irrational and impulsive being that inhabits our minds — and real-life case studies. Never before will you have had such a deep and clear understanding of your own behaviour and natural responses to certain people or situations.

This knowledge, combined with simple techniques that can be easily incorporated into daily life, will help you to control your emotional impulses and reach your full potential, leading to success at work and a happier, harmonious professional cyclist
So Wiggins calling people bad words was a controlled emotional impulse? :eek:
 
Aug 19, 2010
62
0
0
Best since WonderLance

Libertine Seguros said:
You sound like somebody trying to convince somebody at a Jefferson Airplane gig to take their first tab.
It's been a long time since I posted and sorry for the delay, but this, at least in my opinion, truly deserved a shout out. This was the best thing I've read on the site, since WonderLance's classics. It brings back so many memories....

Now carry on.
 
Geordieracer said:
Through looking at the overall picture , speaking to people in the know :D
the type of person he is , his reaction to doping in the past
Lots of stuff , but generally his riding style is not the style of a doper
BA ha ha ha! You may be right. You may be crazy (or wrong). But it just might be a lunatic you're craving for. Turn off the light. Time to be lazy. Time for me to let myself out have a good night :p
 
Jul 25, 2011
157
0
0
PedalPusher said:
There is. To be one of the top 10 riders in the world, you're doping. Simple as that. And a good doping program.

You really don't know him nor does anyone else. You have no idea what someone will do to win. Nor the huge ego it takes to ride at that level. a long time pursuit rider doesn't lend itself to a top GC rider, sorry, don't care how much weight loss you have. When you loose weight, you loose power. Pure fact. I don't care how much spin you put on your training program, it falls short in explanation. There is nothing new in sports science. It's like books on happiness, there are thousands of them, but yet no one still achieves true nirvana. Every trainer has the answer, but the results are the same.
Jolly, this makes it superb easy, can we just ban the 10 first in GC please? :D really?????? Just like the OP gives no real arguments, so do you.

Also, you may lose some power when you lose weight yes, but your w/kg can still increase. You need to find the balance where your w/kg is optimal (=ideal weight). Also Wiggins stated this somewhere so he didn't just drop to the lowest possible weight. Don't spread so called "facts" when your only telling half the story ...
 
Oct 30, 2011
2,642
0
0
wannab said:
Jolly, this makes it superb easy, can we just ban the 10 first in GC please? :D really?????? Just like the OP gives no real arguments, so do you.

Also, you may lose some power when you lose weight yes, but your w/kg can still increase. You need to find the balance where your w/kg is optimal (=ideal weight). Also Wiggins stated this somewhere so he didn't just drop to the lowest possible weight. Don't spread so called "facts" when your only telling half the story ...
Indeed, and the only rationale for losing weight is to increase power/weight. However, a decrease in power should leave the rider worse at TTing, especially prologues. It has not.
 
Speaking of Top 10 in GC, how did the 2005 top 10 fare:

1 Lance Armstrong (USA) - under USADA doping investigation
2 Ivan Basso (ITA) - 2 year ban
DSQ Jan Ullrich (GER) - disqualified and banned
4 Francisco Mancebo (ESP) - Puerto, banned
5 Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) - 2 year ban
6 Levi Leipheimer (USA) - under USADA investigation
7 Michael Rasmussen (DEN) - banned
8 Cadel Evans (AUS)
9 Floyd Landis (USA) - banned, disqualified in 2006
10 Óscar Pereiro (ESP)
11 Christophe Moreau (FRA) - part of Festina affair

The only two "clean" guys are Pereiro and Evans.
Hilarious.
 
Moose McKnuckles said:
Speaking of Top 10 in GC, how did the 2005 top 10 fare:

1 Lance Armstrong (USA) - under USADA doping investigation
2 Ivan Basso (ITA) - 2 year ban
DSQ Jan Ullrich (GER) - disqualified and banned
4 Francisco Mancebo (ESP) - Puerto, banned
5 Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) - 2 year ban
6 Levi Leipheimer (USA) - under USADA investigation
7 Michael Rasmussen (DEN) - banned
8 Cadel Evans (AUS)
9 Floyd Landis (USA) - banned, disqualified in 2006
10 Óscar Pereiro (ESP)
11 Christophe Moreau (FRA) - part of Festina affair

The only two "clean" guys are Pereiro and Evans.
Hilarious.
Don't forget Pereiro's testing positive in 2006 and getting an after-the-fact TUE for salbutamol. Or was is albutamol? And the artificial hemoglobin he told Landis he was using in 2006.
 
May 15, 2012
75
0
0
My only piece to add here is that i don't understand why people think if you are a track cyclist then you are clean. Drugs are rife throughout track cycling.

Cycling is known as the dirtiest sport around. The athletes do not deserve the assumption of innocence whilst top riders continue to get popped. Riders should just accept the fans skepticism, abusing someone isn't a convincing argument.

In saying that, i think SKY did have a great strategy. In past years i always said for the guys who can't climb that fast, why not just TT to the top as it's the constant accelerations that wear the riders out.

Hey presto, SKY do just that and it worked. Mind you it helps the cause when you put out 480 watts the entire time lol.
 
Jul 25, 2011
157
0
0
Caruut said:
Indeed, and the only rationale for losing weight is to increase power/weight. However, a decrease in power should leave the rider worse at TTing, especially prologues. It has not.
Yes, and an not in super form Cancellara won that prologue
3. Sylvain Chavanel 4. Tejay van Garderen 5. Edvald Boasson Hagen
All within reach of each other, nothing extraordinary there ?

I also think you underestimate the influence of w/kg in the TT, look at the recent tour winners and their TT record. W/kg rules in the mountains but also plays a key role in TT.
- Wiggins, great tt rider, good in mountains
- Evans, good tt rider, good in mountains
- Contador, great tt rider, great in mountains
- Armstrong, dominant tt rider, dominant in mountains
- Indurain, dominant tt rider, great in mountains
- Lemond, great tt rider, great in mountains

Whether they doped or not, they all had a very high w/kg to rule/compete in the mountains where the true potential of w/kg comes to sight, they also didn't do particularly bad in the TT's , far from :rolleyes:
 
Jul 28, 2009
898
0
0
It´s a disgrace when a troll thread like this garners 250+ posts when someone like krebs at least puts in a bit of effort to amass some actually physiological data to support the feasibility of a clean Wiggins. This is just reminiscent of previous discussions regarding other people but apparently this thread isn´t about them despite the rather startling parallels.
 
Jun 18, 2012
165
0
0
Kicker661 said:
My only piece to add here is that i don't understand why people think if you are a track cyclist then you are clean. Drugs are rife throughout track cycling.
This ^^^! If you have truly been around the sport, instead of watching on tv, you know these things.
 
Jun 18, 2012
165
0
0
wannab said:
Jolly, this makes it superb easy, can we just ban the 10 first in GC please? :D really?????? Just like the OP gives no real arguments, so do you.

Also, you may lose some power when you lose weight yes, but your w/kg can still increase. You need to find the balance where your w/kg is optimal (=ideal weight). Also Wiggins stated this somewhere so he didn't just drop to the lowest possible weight. Don't spread so called "facts" when your only telling half the story ...
Regardless, been around cycling and power/endurance sports a long time and pro cyclists. Still friends with people involved at high levels and even one team. The reality is, they are doping, not all but at the highest level yes.

Conversation last year? Cadel got his drugs right. Schlecks also. This year? Schlecks were off or maybe not even doping due to increased vigilance in anti doping. Cadel also. Contador? Doper.A lot of paranoia in the peloton this year. No one wanting to risk it. Sky? I'm sorry, they didn't find some magical training program. It's disrespectful to say they trained harder and better than everyone else. It's BS. You don't ride at that level for as long as Wiggins has this season.

I don't care how "anti doping" he has been in the past publicly. Means nothing, a show for the show. I would do the same thing if I was guilty and so do others. Hell I would even hold back a bit so there would be no suspicion about doping. Which happened. I don't care if you "think" he is a nice guy, think you know him etc..YOU DO NOT.

Wiggins dropped a lot of muscle mass, and put a slight bit back on. I am very aware of optimal power/weight ratio.

Pursuit rider to TT champ? Sure...classics, very possible, domestique, of course...GC contender for TDF? Not buying it.
 
May 14, 2010
5,306
2
0
rata de sentina said:
It´s a disgrace when a troll thread like this garners 250+ posts when someone like krebs at least puts in a bit of effort to amass some actually physiological data to support the feasibility of a clean Wiggins. This is just reminiscent of previous discussions regarding other people but apparently this thread isn´t about them despite the rather startling parallels.
+1. Yep.

‹Ù甪
 
PedalPusher said:
Regardless, been around cycling and power/endurance sports a long time and pro cyclists. Still friends with people involved at high levels and even one team. The reality is, they are doping, not all but at the highest level yes.

Conversation last year? Cadel got his drugs right. Schlecks also. This year? Schlecks were off or maybe not even doping due to increased vigilance in anti doping. Cadel also. Contador? Doper.A lot of paranoia in the peloton this year. No one wanting to risk it. Sky? I'm sorry, they didn't find some magical training program. It's disrespectful to say they trained harder and better than everyone else. It's BS. You don't ride at that level for as long as Wiggins has this season.

I don't care how "anti doping" he has been in the past publicly. Means nothing, a show for the show. I would do the same thing if I was guilty and so do others. Hell I would even hold back a bit so there would be no suspicion about doping. Which happened. I don't care if you "think" he is a nice guy, think you know him etc..YOU DO NOT.

Wiggins dropped a lot of muscle mass, and put a slight bit back on. I am very aware of optimal power/weight ratio.

Pursuit rider to TT champ? Sure...classics, very possible, domestique, of course...GC contender for TDF? Not buying it.
I get the sense that all of BMC got the preparations wrong this year ... way off.
 
Apr 29, 2009
131
0
0
The Cobra said:
For years posters laughed at Wiggins, said he was a one hit wonder and had ZERO chance of ever winning the Tour. Well guess what, he's just won.

Now that he has those same posters are saying its impossible, he must be doping. One question: Why is it so hard to admit you were wrong?? Wiggins won clean, some of you need to man up, swallow your pride and admit you were wrong. :)

P.S. Respect to Geordieracer for starting this thread. :)
In my completely unbiased opinion Cobo is dirtier than a toilet freshly filled with a steaming dump and a great injustice has been done to the 100% clean as a whistle Froome and Wiggins:D

Seriously though, watching the stage I was very ****ed seeing the Froome and Wiggo getting destroyed by Cobo and was convinced he was on the juice. Now I've calmed down a bit, Cobo has been up there very strongly all race and presuming he is on the juice whatever it is will be totally undectable and therefore Froome and Wiggins are just as likely to be on the exact same ****. It sucks but thats just the way it is.
It's good see you have a sense of humour.
 
Oct 29, 2009
357
0
0
Hotbrakes said:
The Cobra said:
For years posters laughed at Wiggins, said he was a one hit wonder and had ZERO chance of ever winning the Tour. Well guess what, he's just won.

Now that he has those same posters are saying its impossible, he must be doping. One question: Why is it so hard to admit you were wrong?? Wiggins won clean, some of you need to man up, swallow your pride and admit you were wrong.

P.S. Respect to Geordieracer for starting this thread.

The Cobra said:
In my completely unbiased opinion Cobo is dirtier than a toilet freshly filled with a steaming dump and a great injustice has been done to the 100% clean as a whistle Froome and Wiggins

Seriously though, watching the stage I was very ****ed seeing the Froome and Wiggo getting destroyed by Cobo and was convinced he was on the juice. Now I've calmed down a bit, Cobo has been up there very strongly all race and presuming he is on the juice whatever it is will be totally undectable and therefore Froome and Wiggins are just as likely to be on the exact same ****. It sucks but thats just the way it is.


It's good see you have a sense of humour.
Lolololololololol.

So who said I cant be a hypocrite? :eek:

I take back what I said about Cobo. The guy probably was clean. Or was is he?? Tbh I dont know anymore. I just cant beleive that Sky would be stupid enough to do a team wide doping program because it is impossible to keep that **** quiet for long. Someone always talks, in this case Froome looks like a prime candidate. I believe because I want to, not because it makes any sense. :cool:

As far as clean cycling goes I think this is as good as its ever going to get.
 
Oct 29, 2009
357
0
0
Caruut said:
Any Sky fans care to explain why the presumption of innocence is necessary?
To be fair to the clean riders (if there are any) who have spent months training for this to then have their achievements tainted by a presumption of doping? Try and imagine what that must feel like. If you're a clean rider, you genuinly does the right thing to then be dragged down to the level of a convicted doper through no fault of their own.

Or perhaps for the integrity of the sport? If the fans are going to presume everyone is doping regardless of evidence against them then why bother with testing at all. May as well have a free for all.
 
PedalPusher said:
"My only piece to add here is that i don't understand why people think if you are a track cyclist then you are clean. Drugs are rife throughout track cycling."This ^^^! If you have truly been around the sport, instead of watching on tv, you know these things.
Quite. Talk to a few people that have been there, look at the people who are in charge, it would be bonkers to think that either the GB track programme or the Sky road team that sprang from it have been dope-free at any point of at least the last 3 Olympic cycles.
 
Jul 19, 2012
115
0
0
The Hitch said:
You seem to not be able to tell the difference between saying someone is doping at that they may be doping.

In your previous post you agree with the poster who says Wiggins is 100% clean.

But here you back it up with - the accusations arent strong enough.

Sorry mate. if you want to go around claiming that Wiggins is CLEAN, then you have to come up with some proof yourself and not just lean on the - there is no sufficient proof argument which only works if you want to stick with - "i want to believe he is clean"
With this comment you seem to be implying that the results of testing are not reliable proof?

Essentially you are asking for people to prove a negative.
As proving a negative is to all intent and practical purposes not possible it is thus easy to constantly make the claim that sufficient proof has not been provided of cleanliness.
 
Jul 19, 2012
115
0
0
PedalPusher said:
There is. To be one of the top 10 riders in the world, you're doping. Simple as that. And a good doping program.
Evidence? Other than your worthless words of course :)

Because if you have the evidence i'm sure you have shared it with the appropriate authorities... :mad:
 
Oct 30, 2011
2,642
0
0
The Cobra said:
To be fair to the clean riders (if there are any) who have spent months training for this to then have their achievements tainted by a presumption of doping? Try and imagine what that must feel like. If you're a clean rider, you genuinly does the right thing to then be dragged down to the level of a convicted doper through no fault of their own.

Or perhaps for the integrity of the sport? If the fans are going to presume everyone is doping regardless of evidence against them then why bother with testing at all. May as well have a free for all.
I still don't see why that means we need to presume innocence though. In a situation where (I believe) it is more likely than not that any given rider is dirty or has been dirty, then I think the null hypothesis (as far as me forming an opinion goes) is that anyone with a huge jump in performance must have stepped up the dope. I'm afraid that it just seems the most likely explanation to me.

If anything, presuming guilt (in opinion, obviously not in actual trials) is fairer to the clean athletes. Only the clean ones can do, without any fear of getting caught, things like store samples for retroactive testing, release blood values and allow journalists to observe them. Without this, they live under the same shadow as the rest of them.

The clean riders can then provide evidence to support themselves if they want people to believe in them, and people will have confidence in them if it holds up. If they didn't want suspicion surrounding their achievements, they shouldn't have gotten involved in professional cycling. There, I said it. Professional cycling has a reputation (perhaps undeservedly) as one of the dirtiest sports around. The clean athletes know this.

It is for the integrity of the sport that it's necessary not to just accept things with blind faith. For years the sport has been dragged through the mud by people playing on fans to take them seriously. Now another one comes along with undelivered promises of transparency, won't explain why they aren't transparent and yet still wants me to believe? No way.
 
May 26, 2009
4,114
0
0
Snafu352 said:
With this comment you seem to be implying that the results of testing are not reliable proof?

Essentially you are asking for people to prove a negative.
As proving a negative is to all intent and practical purposes not possible it is thus easy to constantly make the claim that sufficient proof has not been provided of cleanliness.
Ullrich, Basso, Mancebo, Millar and Valverde are 5 riders who've never failed a test.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY